Does Anybody Understand Greece?
a standstill. The gov't hasn't paid anybody in months,
business owners aren't paying their employees, people
stopped paying their mortgages and car payments.
All the money and credit is gone. How is this possible,
how did this happen?
greek financial crisis-cnn
Greek financial crisis explained-bbc
enjoy!
Letting Greece join in the Europe Common Market or whatever they call it these days meant letting in a poor credit risk.
The next step was for the banks to lend massive amounts at ever higher rates.
Soon it becomes a major credit drain.
Everyone knows a collapse will come eventually.
The trick is to get your profits before the collapse.
That Greece was fudging the books to show its lenders is a trivial matter, everyone knew the situation was bad and would get worse because no matter what the government promised to do Greek citizens would not go along with it. Greeks don't want "austerity budgets".. Politicians want austerity budgets.
The banks that created the problem and made huge profits will soon clamor to be part of the bailout and will make even larger profits.
went broke. Whats the big deal, most socialist countries
do that eventually. Live high on the hog for awhile and
then start over. Its good to be in the EU.
Quote: EvenBobHow is this possible, how did this happen?
You may recall a decade ago, that Greece was not permitted to join the other 11 currencies until 18 months after the fact. Many people felt that they should not participate.
Since Greece came in, only 5 other small countries have joined the EMU
Slovenian tolar
Cypriot pound
Maltese lira
Slovak koruna
Estonian kroon
The decision to join the Euro was only put up to a vote in one country, Denmark. That one country voted no.
We know from other cases around the world, that initially things are better than ever. The country enjoys having a stable currency that is not being constantly devalued. But eventually pressure begins to build as the country is working with a currency it can't afford. The stress never really went away, it just builds to the explosive level. The end result is mass suffering, riots, and a near breakdown of the economy.
Quote: buzzpaffI love the fact that while German workers continued to work , people in hazardous profession in Greece were allowed to retire at age 55. Of course this included Greece workers exposed to dangerous chemical everyday. Like hairdressers !
It doesn't help to do those comparisons. Greece has possibly the highest percent of their GDP in the service sector of any nation in the world. Not every country can be a manufacturing powerhouse. But the daily fluctuations in currency rate gives the entire country a pay decrease without all the political trouble of union negotiations or with austerity measures. That way the currency rate punishes you for poor output.
Of course the party appears to be over now, and the innocent and/or productive Greeks will be punished
like everyone else.
Seems to me I read about 10 years ago that Greece was the only country who's population had gone down
since WW2. Was that true then and if so, has immigration changed that fact ?
Quote: pacomartinIt doesn't help to do those comparisons. Greece has possibly the highest percent of their GDP in the service sector of any nation in the world.
So while the German ant kept working, the Greek grasshopper kept mooching off the German. And it's not helpful to do such comparisons? Most "public sector" jobs are either non-productive or of very limited productivity. Wasting a large percentage of GDP in the public sector is a badge of shame.
Quote:Not every country can be a manufacturing powerhouse.
Actually, ay country can. But those that don't should look for other productive areas to expand into. Not make-work.
The Greek economy crashed leaving Greece without any tax base.
Florida's housing bubble burst leaving the state without any tax base.
Europe and the Euro has a weak central bank that's beholden to the whims of Germany and France. No payments to pensioners would be forthcoming to help boost the Greek economy.
The United States has a strong central bank that could pump money into Florida via Social Security and Medicare thus shoring up Florida's economy.
Greeks are taking money out of the banks because they don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, making the banking system even weaker.
Floridians have no such concerns. The US system is safe.
Germany has Cradle to Grave socialist healthcare. I see people on here saying things that would indicate otherwise. I don't think the problem with Greece is socialism since Germany has pretty much the same thing. I think the problem with Greece is fraud. The Greeks consider tax dodging a national sport.
Quote: pacomartinIt doesn't help to do those comparisons. Greece has possibly the highest percent of their GDP in the service sector of any nation in the world. Not every country can be a manufacturing powerhouse. But the daily fluctuations in currency rate gives the entire country a pay decrease without all the political trouble of union negotiations or with austerity measures. That way the currency rate punishes you for poor output.
The out-of-kilter welfare benefits are most definitely related to the decline of an economy unable to support such low productivity and high extravagance, along with the currency. After all, the currency has been the Euro.
Quote: buzzpaffSeems to me I read about 10 years ago that Greece was the only country who's population had gone down
since WW2. Was that true then and if so, has immigration changed that fact ?
Greece is said to be peaking about now (Census says 2015). Of course, they have a lot of illegal immigration (one of the highest rate in the EU). That is simply because they are surrounded by non-EU nations.
Russia is back down to it's 1979 population. Hungary is the worst country that I know of, having peaked in 1981 and is now back to their 1959 population.
Greece is relatively old, even for Europe. If the median age is 42 and people are retiring at 55 you start to see problems. The aging of populations shows itself in disasters like the Tsunami. Japan has the oldest population in the world (except for tiny Monaco), and it is harder and harder to recover after losing everything.
Sooner or later age will probably be the deciding factor over money. Turkish people with a median age population of 28 will look at Germany, with a median age of 44 and decide that their people helped build that country's wealth and deserve a piece of the pie. It is hard to believe that these countries with young populations, bursting at the seams will stand forever looking at aging dying populations who are too old to work , but have all the infrastructure.
Many people point out that the growth rate of the world is radically slowing, but even so in the year 2050, a total of 75% of the world's people will be living in countries that are still growing. If you take China out of the equation, the number is 88%. So "on average" growth will be leveling off, but there will be a great hole in the developed world beckoning to the rest of the world.
compounded over thousands of interactions and transaction, cuts into their productivity.
my land lord is greek his first name has nine letters and his last name has 14.
he should get a chinese name, much more efficient.
Get a Chinese Name
(although some do require a lot of pen strokes :)
Well...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/german/comedy/long_words.shtml
Socialism thrives because there are more Takers in the world the Makers. A Maker pays taxes and a Taker consumes taxes.
Politicians know that every citizen only gets 1 vote, and there are many more Takers than Makers so Politicians just do what the vast majority of the population wants - to live the good life and not work or pay for it.
Socialists tax the "rich" and use that money to buy the votes of the poor. The poor get hooked on freebies and vote for more politicians that will give them even more freebies.
America is not exempt - as long as each citizen gets 1 vote Socialism is the ultimate destination of ALL countries.
Someday folks will figure this out and start a nation where the more taxes you pay the more votes you get, with folks paying no taxes getting no votes.
It's called a corporation. The more stock you own the more your voice drives the destination of the company.
But, we are generations from this happening - we must implode first..........
Hell, lets go just straight to a Monarchy and cut out all these middlemen.
PBS. She said her and everybody she knows is terrified
and depressed. She lost her business last year and stopped
paying the mortgage. Stopped making car payments in Feb.
She lives with the fact that she's going to lose everything,
if not next week, then maybe next month. All her friends
and neighbors are in the same boat. Its one thing to see
this in a 3rd world country, but Europe? Scary stuff.
Quote: EvenBobIts one thing to see
this in a 3rd world country, but Europe? Scary stuff.
3rd world people aren't impressed with our troubles. Of course, most third world people living hand to mouth have got that part figured out. They know how to live on next to nothing, or else they're dead.
Quote: s2dbaker
Germany has Cradle to Grave socialist healthcare. I see people on here saying things that would indicate otherwise. I don't think the problem with Greece is socialism since Germany has pretty much the same thing. I think the problem with Greece is fraud. The Greeks consider tax dodging a national sport.
Well, isn't that the problem with socialism? Greece ran out of other people's money!
Greece seems to be the country that had their day 3,000 years ago when they were at the geographic center of the world trade system, now that they are a backwater in today's system they have become a nation that gets propped up due to their status as a buffer between various ideological groups. Seroiusly, what is the last Greek product or service you ever even saw for sale, never mind even one that is world-class?
Their only "export" seems to be tourism. They need to buy other goods from abroad. 1/3 of the population works for the governmnet. We already discussed how many are retired.
What is "wrong" with Greece is the population is happy just getting by, and the government drives this.
That's about it.
Spain, and a few other European countries, is they're lazy.
And the stereotype of Americans is we're workaholics.The
WWII jokes about France and Italy are still around.
You would never accuse Germany of being lazy, or England
or Ireland. And look at who's in trouble in Europe; Spain,
Portugal, Italy, Greece, maybe France. Germany is
as hard working as America and they're propping up everybody.
For 40 years all I hear is so many of those countries want
4 day work weeks, 8 weeks paid vacation, retire at 55,
guaranteed jobs, can't be fired. And look what its gotten
them.
They laugh at us for being workaholics, for not even taking
the vacation time we have coming. They think we're fools.
I wonder if they're laughing now. We have a saying that
came into being over a hundred years ago: There is
no free lunch. Comes from the days when saloons offered
free food at lunch if you drank there. Its ingrained in us
that nothing is free, somebody has to pay in the end. Maybe
EU is learning a lesson we learned a hundred years ago.
Quote: AZDuffmanSeroiusly, what is the last Greek product or service you ever even saw for sale, never mind even one that is world-class?
I doubt it is really from Greece, but you can't go into any break room at my hospital without seeing a woman eating "Greek Yogurt". It is around twice as expensive as regular yogurt. I haven't tried it yet.
Which only goes to show that even framed signs can be totally wrong. The American worker has never been more productive.Quote: RogerKintThis reminds me of when I was a kid sitting in my grandparents living room. There was a sign in a frame that said something like "The dollar isn't worth what it used to be 'cause folks these days aren't willing to work as hard for one."
Quote: s2dbakerGermany has Cradle to Grave socialist healthcare. I see people on here saying things that would indicate otherwise. I don't think the problem with Greece is socialism since Germany has pretty much the same thing. I think the problem with Greece is fraud. The Greeks consider tax dodging a national sport.
The problem with Greece is that the government spends far more money than it takes in. You can blame it on tax evasion, if you like, but a responsible government should take that into consideration. Greece has a national debt of over 150% of its GDP. That's way too much.
But ask yourself what a government's income is. It's what wealth it can colelct from its citizens in taxes, fees, tariffs, etc. If the citizenry isn't very productive, and much of it is working for the government and producing nothing at all, where is that much money supposed to come from? Naturally from debt.
But what is government debt? Usually it's a bond that promises to yield interest in time. Banks, traders, investors and sometimes other governments buy these. As long as a country can keep paying them, people will buy them. When the jig is up, as it must eventually be when a country spends more than it takes in, the money dries up. You can keep asking for a loan, but no one will give you one.
Therefore Greece needs to be bailed out. But if it ever wants to repay the bailout money, or part of it, and be able to contract new debt in the future, it needs to cut spending. As far as I know, few governments have ever managed to cut spending. About the best they can do is to slow down the increase in spending. But when so many people depend on government money, even that much is a hardship.
It all boils down to the Thatcher line: Greece ran out of other people's money to spend.
Spain and Italy seem to be next. and Germany alone can't bail them all out.
Quote: SOOPOOI doubt it is really from Greece, but you can't go into any break room at my hospital without seeing a woman eating "Greek Yogurt". It is around twice as expensive as regular yogurt. I haven't tried it yet.
I think you are rigtht in that it is just a name. What I am thinking is you think of Germany and you think cars and precision machining; you think of Japan you think of electronics; France has wines; and this is nowhere near all-inclusive. Greece has no real products that they can compete with. China does not sell much "good" stuff but it is cheap. Greece does not sell on price or quality.
Here is an good test. 20% or whatever unemployment there? See what the response would be if you were to propose putting in a sneaker factory paying a very basic wage. Would there be many takers or would people there take their chances waiting for the next government check?
prepared following the method used in greece,
which is to strain the yogurt to remove the whey.
it gives the yogurt a thicker consistency
and a rich and creamier texture, even when the fat is removed.
ironically,most of the yogurt in greece is not strained.
the comment on german cars reminded me of this:
10 ways German cars rule the road
Quote: NareedThe problem with Greece is that the government spends far more money than it takes in.
The problem with Greece is it has a population slightly
larger than my state of MI and 33% of the population
has a gov't job. How is it possible that a country of
11mil needs 1/3 of its people to work in non revenue
producing jobs. It obvioulsy doesn't. They were lifetime
positions, lots of raises and benefits, and it was only
a matter of time before they couldn't rob Peter to pay
Paul any longer and the whole thing collapsed.
Look how gov't employment has expanded under Obama,
the same thing is happening here.
Quote: EvenBobThe problem with Greece is it has a population slightly
larger than my state of MI and 33% of the population
has a gov't job. How is it possible that a country of
11mil needs 1/3 of its people to work in non revenue
producing jobs. It obvioulsy doesn't. They were lifetime
positions, lots of raises and benefits, and it was only
a matter of time before they couldn't rob Peter to pay
Paul any longer and the whole thing collapsed.
Look how gov't employment has expanded under Obama,
the same thing is happening here.
Indeed.
Greece is not in trouble because it's socialist (or liberal democratic, or republican). It's because it's constantly over spent, and then lied about it's spending.
Government overspending it's receipts by a significant amount is a tendency for left-leaning governments, for sure, but is not something that is a purely left or socialist disease.
Quote: thecesspitIndeed.
Greece is not in trouble because it's socialist (or liberal democratic, or republican). It's because it's constantly over spent, and then lied about it's spending.
.
Greeks are very clannish. Families are a big deal to them.
So if you had a cushy gov't job, you were compelled to
get all your cousins jobs too. If everyone is only concerned
about getting jobs that require no real work, lots of paid
time off, and early retirement, with no concern for where
the money is coming from, collapse is inevitable. Its like
having a factory where the Chiefs outnumber the Indians.
Nothing productive ever gets done.
Then they can fill the spaces with factories.
Quote: rxwineHow much are their antiquities worth? Maybe they should have an auction?
They should sell their small islands. There are 3,000 of them and
only 140 are inhabited. Having your own Greek island has to be
a perk..
Quote: EvenBobThey should sell their small islands. There are 3,000 of them and only 140 are inhabited. Having your own Greek island has to be a perk..
The island of Lanai in Hawaii has just been sold to the owner of Oracle software. Lanai used to belong to the Dole corporation.
The Ionian islands (pop 1/4 million) have a different history than the rest of Greece
Quote: mini history of Ionian islands from wikipediaFrom 1204, the Republic of Venice controlled Corfu and slowly all the Ionian islands fell under Venetian rule. In the 15th century, the Ottomans conquered most of Greece, but their attempts at conquering the islands were largely unsuccessful.The islands thus became the only part of the Greek-speaking world to escape Ottoman rule, which gave them both a unity and an importance in Greek history they would otherwise not have had. Corfu was the only Greek island never conquered by the Turks.
In 1797, however, Napoléon Bonaparte conquered Venice, and by the Treaty of Campo Formio the islanders found themselves under French rule, the islands being organised as the départments Mer-Égée, Ithaque and Corcyre. In 1798, the Russian Admiral Ushakov evicted the French, and established the Septinsular Republic under joint Russo-Ottoman protection—the first time Greeks had had even limited self‐government since the fall of Constantinople in 1453. However, in 1807, they were ceded again to the French in the Treaty of Tilsit and occupied by the French Empire.
In 1809, the British defeated the French fleet in Zakynthos (October 2, 1809) captured Kefallonia, Kythera and Zakynthos, and took Lefkada in 1810. The French held out in Kerkyra until 1814. The Treaty of Paris in 1815 turned the islands into the "United States of the Ionian Islands" under British protection (November 5, 1815).
Once Greek independence was established after 1830, however, the islanders began to resent foreign rule and to press for enosis - union with Greece. The British statesman William Ewart Gladstone toured the islands and recommended that they be given to Greece. The British government resisted, since like the Venetians they found the islands made useful naval bases. They also regarded the German-born king of Greece, King Otto, as unfriendly to Britain. However, in 1862, Otto was deposed and a pro-British king, George I, was installed.
In 1862, Britain decided to transfer the islands to Greece, as a gesture of support intended to bolster the new king's popularity. On May 2, 1864, the British departed and the islands became three provinces of the Kingdom of Greece though Britain retained the use of the port of Corfu. Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark was born in Corfu in 1921 and grew up to become Britain's Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.
They may demand independence, or even the right to become a British territory once again. Logically they could just as equally request to be an independent territory of either France or Italy given that they were ruled by all three countries at some point.
Given the value of their real estate, probably the last thing they want is to give up the Euro for the new drachma.
Quote: pacomartinThey may demand independence, or even the right to become a British territory once again.
That migth work.
Quote:Logically they could just as equally request to be an independent territory of either France or Italy given that they were ruled by all three countries at some point.
Attaching themselves to Italy might mean jumping from the frying pan to the fire. France is more stable, but if I were France and these islands tried it, I'd nuke them >:)
Quote: EvenBobLook how gov't employment has expanded under Obama,
the same thing is happening here.
Growth In Government Spending Under President Obama Slower Than During Bush, Reagan Administrations
Quote: WongBoGrowth In Government Spending Under President Obama Slower Than During Bush, Reagan Administrations
That's a relative measurement. In absolute terms, government spending under Obama has been sky-high. Deficits are a lot bigger, too, naturally, and debt has grown too much.
And the Federal government has added positions since Obama came in (I won't call most of them jobs, as they produce nothing).
22% unemployment, but a lot of those working aren't getting paid or are
just getting a fraction of what they used to get. If Italy or Spain goes, all hell
will break loose over there. Its amazing that with all the history we have to go
on, all the bright economic minds we have in the world, that entire countries
could be this stupid to let themselves get into this kind of financial trouble.
Now , if Greece were to sell those islands as tax free kingdoms, debt problem solved. Way to go, Evenbob
Thanks to the Drive-By media we did not.............
what else are they good for?
You don't want the house to burn down so fast you can't get out, and likewise, you don't want one house burning down the whole neighborhood.
firewall & economy???
Quote: MauiSunsetA generation from now folks will look back at this time and ask "Didn't they see what was coming?" Thanks to the Drive-By media we did not.............
Kind of the Cassandra legend, where people are cursed with the gift of prophecy, but no one believes them.
