Question for the AP crew
Quote: MathExtremistI think if you're going to consider yourself a professional, you need to be getting paid. If you spend all your time in casinos and all you get out of it are free rooms and food, that's a nice free vacation but it's not a living.
I don't think you need to be a "professional" to be an AP.
Let's say a player was comped airfare, room, and meals totaling what he could have bought for $1500. He went to Las Vegas and played enough Roulette to have an expected loss of $1300. His net is $200 to the plus side.
If I was that player, I wouldn't consider that a good deal. I would have paid $1300 to play.
Now, if I had to go to Las Vegas (business, convention, family visit, etc) and would have been buying airfare, room, and meals for $1500 anyway, I'd consider it a $200 discount on my travel, and an advantage play.
Comps are valuable to different people in different ways. I wouldn't presume to know everyone's circumstances.
That said, I'd only play Roulette if that was the only way to get the comp.
Put $5 gas in car and drive to Blackhawk and play penny slots at Fitzgeralds one penny at a time. Penny loft had free hotdogs
and free drink, make them yourself station.
Would go to the Isle, get 50's spackage, earn 10 pts to get free buffet, back to penny slots until 10 or 11 pm. This was winter and at that time casino closed 2 am to 8 am and glad to give free room just to have players in am.
Considering price of room, hot dogs, buffet, etc. I was ahead financially. But for some silly damn reason, I never felt like an AP player !
Quote: WupperWhen my wife returns from shopping, she tells me she "saved" $300. Then she gives me a stack of receipts for $1,400. Clearly she is not an AP.
I beg to differ. She obviously had the good sense as an AP to marry a winner !
Quote: hook3670Math , I disagree a bit. if I was going to the steakhouse anyway and spending $150 but now I only spend $100 for the same meal that would have cost me $150, then I made $50 on this occurance. AP to me means an advantage over the house and that does include comps and cash backs etc...
I can buy a Groupon right now for $85 that entitles me to a dinner worth $176 at Luckyrice at the Cosmopolitan:
http://www.groupon.com/deals/luckyrice-the-cosmopolitan
Buying that doesn't make me an AP. It just means I used a coupon.
Like well, it's actually a vacation or some other bullshit. BUSINESS IS BUSINESS
Quote: mrjjjI thought about this while posting in another thread.
The question is for all the AP guys except for roulette. Do you feel a person can obtain an edge (AP) in roulette?
OR...no way.
Ken
No.
Quote: HunterhillIn my opinion yes.Many VP players play games that are slightly negative but overcome that with comps and free play.
The key there is "slightly negative." A good VP game will return north of 99.5%, which can be turned positive with enough comps, free play, special offers, etc. The best (single-zero) roulette game will return 97.6%. Pretty tough to get that much back in comps. Also, Ken has stated that his roulette "method" does not depend on comps to be successful.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThe key there is "slightly negative." A good VP game will return north of 99.5%, which can be turned positive with enough comps, free play, special offers, etc. The best (single-zero) roulette game will return 97.6%. Pretty tough to get that much back in comps. Also, Ken has stated that his roulette "method" does not depend on comps to be successful.
I could CARELESS about comps.
Ken
Evidently the comps are not sufficient to bring the roulette losses to Zero, So why bother.
Quote: mrjjjI could CARELESS about comps.
Ken
So you care about comps then? I'll take this opportunity to post one of my favorite images from the internet...
Click on the image for a detailed explanation.
Quote: AcesAndEightsSo you care about comps then? I'll take this opportunity to post one of my favorite images from the internet...
Click on the image for a detailed explanation.
Ohhhh, the ole' ....."I'll get you on spelling so I look more right trick". I love this board.
(lol) Have fun with that. Comps? Whatever, it does not interest me.
Ken
Quote: HunterhillI was only talking about playing a negative game and being an AP.I do not endorse playing roulette.That said It would not surprise me if there are a few people out there that consistantly beat roulette. As far as the friend of the op who beat carribean stud for a year,why did he stop and why is he not still out there beating it.I think he played a small amount of hours and got lucky for a year,if he were to play more hours he would lose.
My friend stopped playing Carribean Stud because he lost 10 times in a row. The way the losing streak started is the type of thing that only happens in movies. He was playing at a casino and was up a lot, a new player (who never played Carribean stud in his entire life) was at the casino on his birthday asked if he could play a hand at the table. He sat in front of my friend...in effect taking his hand...the very next hand dealt was a Royal Flush...Birthday boy won $25,000 (Progressive Jackpot) my friend called me from his seat at the table to tell me the story. He left the casino immediately, lost the next 9 times he played Carribean Stud at a casino (10 in a row overall) and has vowed to never play Carribean Stud again in his life.
You can't make this stuff up!
Quote: mrjjjQuote: AcesAndEightsSo you care about comps then? I'll take this opportunity to post one of my favorite images from the internet...
Click on the image for a detailed explanation.
Ohhhh, the ole' ....."I'll get you on spelling so I look more right trick". I love this board.
(lol) Have fun with that. Comps? Whatever, it does not interest me.
Ken
Nah, I have very little stake in this discussion. Just trying to educate you on one of my pet peeves.
"Could care less" = cares at least a little bit
"Couldn't care less" = doesn't care at all.
Learn it. Love it.
Some comps are quite valuable and can easily be turned into cash.I`m not talking about all the free crap like toasters or beach chairs etc...
Some places give you comps or points that you can use to buy very expensive items that can easily be sold.I know one player that bought over 20 rolex watches one year with comps.Which he then was able to sell for 60 to 80% of retail value,so to say you don`t care about comps might be shortsighted.
Quote: Hunterhill" I could CARELESS about comps."
Some comps are quite valuable and can easily be turned into cash.I`m not talking about all the free crap like toasters or beach chairs etc...
Some places give you comps or points that you can use to buy very expensive items that can easily be sold.I know one player that bought over 20 rolex watches one year with comps.Which he then was able to sell for 60 to 80% of retail value,so to say you don`t care about comps might be shortsighted.
No.....I really dont care about them.
Ken
It is like getting value for money + :value for money way above the average that is also worth the time and effort and is for sufficient economic benefit.
For example if something has a retail price of $10.000 but you can get it for $1.000 (coupons, special offers etc) that's an AP play.
AP plays must also consider the value of your time.
If something has a retail price of $100 and you have to wait for 3 hours on the line to get it for $90, then that is not an AP play.
The same principle applies to the casino.
It has to have an overall positive Ev (taking into account hard and soft combs)
It has to be of sufficient value
Time that is needed to get the positive Ev. Better known as Ev per hour.
If a BJ player plays BS and does a rudimentary form of counting giving him an Edge of only 0.1% which translated to an Ev of $5 an hour, is he an AP player. I do not think so. Is a waste of time if the pesrson does this as an AP activity. At best is entertainment with zero cost plus some pocket money.
Ken
I feel the same way about your asinine boasts of being an AP. LOL
Since my business is involved in buying things and reselling them at a higher price, I agree with you on a lot of what you wrote. I talk to people all the time and tell them they must consider the value of their own time in doing whatever it is they are doing. Some people don't like the price I offer to them, and want to have a yard sale to sell their used furniture. I think this is fine, however, the amount of time they will spend doing this probably doesn't make it worthwhile.Quote: AceTwoI think an AP is mostly a state of mind. It does not relate just to casinos but to other aspects of economic activity.
...
AP plays must also consider the value of your time.
If something has a retail price of $100 and you have to wait for 3 hours on the line to get it for $90, then that is not an AP play.
The disagreement I have to your statement is that I think it strongly depends on the person involved. I tell people, if you want to have a yard sale, and you want to spend the time doing that, and you enjoy doing it, then go for it. But you, and you alone, can determine whether or not it is worth your time. My mom is the kind of person who would stand in line for 3 hours to save $10. You and I might agree that it's not worthwhile, but to her, it's perfectly reasonable, and, what's more, she enjoys doing it.
Quote: CrapsForeverJust played with an AP Craps player. Stick Left, 3V. Hard 6's & 8's ALL DAY!. He had a monster impactful 20 minute roll. Absolutely no heat. And just like that he was gone.....one turn on the dice and he disappeared. Absolutely Amazing!
And yet there are people on this forum who do not believe in dice setting.
There are none so blind as those who will not see !
Quote: buzzpaffAnd yet there are people on this forum who do not believe in dice setting.
There are none so blind as those who will not see !
I realized it..."Lucky" Dice Shooter after his second roll. Rich guy on table recognized it also and immediately put $150 on the Hard 8, next roll....Hard 8!
Quote: buzzpaffNo.....I really dont care about them.
Ken
I feel the same way about your asinine boasts of being an AP. LOL
A) You hurt my feelings and I was insulted by this comment. I guess the RULES are not the same for all.
B) My boasts? (lol) I'm not into AP (cough), are you joking?
Ken
Quote: mrjjjA) You hurt my feelings and I was insulted by this comment. I guess the RULES are not the same for all.
B) My boasts? (lol) I'm not into AP (cough), are you joking?
Ken
Ken, you may say you are "not into AP', but your claims of having a method to consistently win at roulette means that you should consider yourself an AP. You have stated many times that your lengthy studying of roulette has enabled you to play with an advantage over the casino, thus, if this were true you'd be an AP. Of course I don't believe you, so to me you are not an AP, but why don't you consider yourself one?
Quote: SOOPOOKen, you may say you are "not into AP', but your claims of having a method to consistently win at roulette means that you should consider yourself an AP. You have stated many times that your lengthy studying of roulette has enabled you to play with an advantage over the casino, thus, if this were true you'd be an AP. Of course I don't believe you, so to me you are not an AP, but why don't you consider yourself one?
Oh, oh....back up is here. (lol) I have never used the word (Keyser even knows this) ......'advantage' in any of my posts and I never will. If *YOU* want to put that TITLE on me, have a blast.
IMO, back in 1923 if you could spot a bias wheel and benefit from it, you would be an AP (cough).
Ken
Quote: mrjjjA) You hurt my feelings and I was insulted by this comment. I guess the RULES are not the same for all.
Not really valid, Ken. The moderators do not follow every thread. If they are not aware of your hurt feelings... how would they be able to apply the rules?
Quote:
B) My boasts? (lol) I'm not into AP (cough), are you joking?
Ken
Oh, but you are. You are an advantage player. If you enter the casino, and make money, repeatedly, and believe you can with your methods and techniques and hard work, you an Advantage Player. I guess you could just call yourself a "Winning Player", but that sounds a little John Patrick to me.
Quote: thecesspitNot really valid, Ken. The moderators do not follow every thread. If they are not aware of your hurt feelings... how would they be able to apply the rules?
Oh, but you are. You are an advantage player. If you enter the casino, and make money, repeatedly, and believe you can with your methods and techniques and hard work, you an Advantage Player. I guess you could just call yourself a "Winning Player", but that sounds a little John Patrick to me.
....and there's thecesspit, right on cue.
I was beginning to wonder where you were tonight buddy.
Ken
Ken
Quote: mrjjj....and there's thecesspit, right on cue.
I was beginning to wonder where you were tonight buddy.
Ken
There was a cue for me? I hadn't realized.
Quote: thecesspitThere was a cue for me? I hadn't realized.
Well now you know. Just curious, how old are you?
Ken
Quote: SOOPOOKen, you may say you are "not into AP', but your claims of having a method to consistently win at roulette means that you should consider yourself an AP. You have stated many times that your lengthy studying of roulette has enabled you to play with an advantage over the casino, thus, if this were true you'd be an AP. Of course I don't believe you, so to me you are not an AP, but why don't you consider yourself one?
It's just nomenclature. Ken seems to have something against players who use well-documented and mathematically provable methods to win long-term, like card counting and hole-carding, since they understand math and know that no one can win long-term on an unbiased roulette wheel. Since they argue with him, he doesn't want to be put into the same bucket, so he calls himself something other than an AP (cough).
Quote: AcesAndEightsIt's just nomenclature. Ken seems to have something against players who use well-documented and mathematically provable methods to win long-term, like card counting and hole-carding, since they understand math and know that no one can win long-term on an unbiased roulette wheel. Since they argue with him, he doesn't want to be put into the same bucket, so he calls himself something other than an AP (cough).
You are semi-wrong. I have two issues.
A) Dont give me this BS that the house has NO edge against the AP (cough) crew. Even if it is SMALL, big deal, you'll still LOSE your money, only slower than me. So what?
B) Lots of guys claiming to walk on water here BUT how many can PROVE they do 'well' with AP (cough)? Not the math, I'm talking about your bank accounts.
Ken
Quote: mrjjjYou are semi-wrong. I have two issues.
A) Dont give me this BS that the house has NO edge against the AP (cough) crew. Even if it is SMALL, big deal, you'll still LOSE your money, only slower than me. So what?
B) Lots of guys claiming to walk on water here BUT how many can PROVE they do 'well' with AP (cough)? Not the math, I'm talking about your bank accounts.
Ken
Ken, the two examples given by Aces and Eights, counting in blackjack, and hole carding in 3 card poker, causes the edge to be in the players favor. I'm not saying it is easy to count cards and vary your bets to take advantage, nor am I saying it is easy to consistently see a dealers hole card. But when those situations arise the players DOES have an advantage over the casino. Period.
As far as your second question, there are probably very few who do succeed at being an AP. But it is clearly not zero. So if I showed you my bank account you would believe I'm an AP? How much do I have to have in it? Seriously, I'm not an AP, but do understand that if I wanted to be I could, its just the amount I could make does not justify the time I'd have to put in.
Quote: SOOPOOKen, the two examples given by Aces and Eights, counting in blackjack, and hole carding in 3 card poker, causes the edge to be in the players favor. I'm not saying it is easy to count cards and vary your bets to take advantage, nor am I saying it is easy to consistently see a dealers hole card. But when those situations arise the players DOES have an advantage over the casino. Period.
As far as your second question, there are probably very few who do succeed at being an AP. But it is clearly not zero. So if I showed you my bank account you would believe I'm an AP? How much do I have to have in it? Seriously, I'm not an AP, but do understand that if I wanted to be I could, its just the amount I could make does not justify the time I'd have to put in.
How much in the account? Thats not the point. You could have 700K in it, how do I/we know its from AP play?
"nor am I saying it is easy to consistently see a dealers hole card" >>> WHAT?? This is the first time I have read of this, you're throwing SEEING the hole card in the MIX of blackjack AP? This is what you guys brag about.....this is what you pin your hopes/dreams on?
WOW, I'll stick with roulette.
Ken
Doubt that money is doing the AP any good in the grave yard or nursing home. 1923, got anything more recent ?
Quote: mrjjjHow much in the account? Thats not the point. You could have 700K in it, how do I/we know its from AP play?
"nor am I saying it is easy to consistently see a dealers hole card" >>> WHAT?? This is the first time I have read of this, you're throwing SEEING the hole card in the MIX of blackjack AP? This is what you guys brag about.....this is what you pin your hopes/dreams on?
WOW, I'll stick with roulette.
Ken
READ Ken..... Hole carding is a term used in 3 card poker, not blackjack.
Counting is term used for blackjack.
I foolishly thought you could understand that when I said I'm not an AP it meant I'm not an AP.
Sometimes your inanity amuses me.... But now you can't even read the simple English sentences... and understand them.....
Quote: HunterhillWell Ken I`m certainly not going to show you my bank account but I have supported myself from AP for 10+ years. I have no other source of income,so yes the edge does exist.Oh one more thing I have never had a losing year.
Both of those statements are nice but no real proof of it. Same rule for everyone please.
Ken
Quote: mrjjjBoth of those statements are nice but no real proof of it. Same rule for everyone please.
Ken
Damn, Ken does have a point !!!
Quote: SOOPOOREAD Ken..... Hole carding is a term used in 3 card poker, not blackjack.
Counting is term used for blackjack.
I foolishly thought you could understand that when I said I'm not an AP it meant I'm not an AP.
Sometimes your inanity amuses me.... But now you can't even read the simple English sentences... and understand them.....
(LMAO)...Well, I guess your correct now, not!
Its funny when you guys get upset....you look for misspelled words, something not posted perfectly etc., this helps the AGENDA, I guess?
"nor am I saying it is easy to consistently see a dealers hole card" >>> So this STATEMENT means what?
Ken
Quote: buzzpaffDamn, Ken does have a point !!!
Just sayin....if non-AP guys have to show PROOF, then the true AP guys also have to show PROOF. Same rule.
Ken
I do know 2 players that have made a small fortune from roulette so i`m just curious.
