Where's Paigowdan?

Quote: rdw4potus

I live in Minneapolis. I do well enough telling the Laotian/Cambodian/Hmong/Vietnamese population from the Chinese/Japanese/Korean population. I guess that's like telling people from Northern Europe from people from Southern Europe.

So, OK, let's say that Bob is right about the guy in the suit being Japanese. That just leaves the part about how/why his race is correlated to his rudeness in Bob's mind...

Honestly the biggest issue for me is telling the difference between Chinese from the southern part of the country from Southeastern Asians. Similar situation as northern Chinese and Koreans/Japanese, but much more pronounced. It is of my opinion that the "Chinese" ethnicity is the most diverse in the world (mainly because it's factually incorrect to lump them all into one).

Quote: Doc

Some years ago, I worked in a group that included three Chinese Americans -- back then, anyone you met in this country from "China" was from the island, not the mainland. One day I commented to one of them that I had such a limited background associating with the Asian peoples that I could not recognize Chinese from Japanese from Korean from Vietnamese from Thai etc. Her reply: "Neither can I." An she had spent at least half her life in Asia.

Heh yeah, a friend from Taiwan jokingly says "All Asians look alike" as well. I readily admit that there is a lot of crossover, but even if a full 25% of Japanese look Korean that still leaves 75% that you can easily pick out. It's kind of like people of Jewish ancestry, not all of them have a bump on their nose and curly hair... but if you see it you know it for sure.


Lastly, the one conversation that's always fun:
- On AVERAGE, Korean women are the most beautiful on the planet. This coming from someone with an affinity for blondes.

//Riding the derailroad

Quote: rdw4potus

Bob makes a special point to emphasize that it's a "Japanese" guy who cut in line.

Because he WAS Japanese. I lived in Hawaii for a long
time, long enough to see the difference in the Asian
races. Is it my fault you obviously think they all look
alike? If he was black or Chinese or Samoan, I would
have said so. I'm afraid all people don't look alike to
me yet.

Quote: Doc

Her reply: "Neither can I." An she had spent at least half her life in Asia.

Was she blind? Once you see the differences, they look
nothing alike. The Vietnamese especially stand out,
as do Koreans. I would point out the differences, but
I'm sure it would be considered racist.

I was listening to a Black girl from England on the
radio. She has light skin and says they really don't
make an issue between light and dark skin in London.
But when she lived in Africa for a year, skin color was
a huge deal. The darker you are, the farther down the
scale you are, and thats in the Black neighborhoods.
Damned racists.

Quote: EvenBob

If he was black or Chinese or Samoan, I would
have said so. I'm afraid all people don't look alike to
me yet.

WHY would you have said so? What does his race add to the story?

Quote: EvenBob

But when she lived in Africa for a year, skin color was
a huge deal. The darker you are, the farther down the
scale you are, and thats in the Black neighborhoods.
Damned racists.

My aunt is from Mexico (haven't talked with her for a decade but believe it was on the Gulf coast) from a fairly affluent family. She was adamant about being purely European and wouldn't even discuss it otherwise, from her skin color it was pretty obvious she was Mestizo.

Quote: rdw4potus

WHY would you have said so? What does his race add to the story?

It is in everyone of his stories.

Quote: Wavy70

It is in everyone of his stories.

Gender, too. Unless the story is about a "normal" white guy...;)

Edit: just noticed Bob's restricted status. Throttling back while he can't respond...

Quote: EvenBob

From May 29th to June 6th he only made 1 post. Could
it be he's working on his latest gaming invention, to
increase his stake in the vampire business of sucking
the customer dry and kicking his emaciated body to
the curb? All the while laughing hysterically and trying
to avoid the sunlight?

You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet. There are many people on the forum, including some of the best members, who are in the gaming business. Your attitude about the evil of casinos will be much more welcomed at other forums.

Everyone should reread them from time to time, to know what kind of behavior is and is not appreciated by the administrators.

Quote: Nareed

Thanks!

I do most of my posting from work. It is time supposed to be spent productively, right? ;)

That depends on if you like your boss!

Quote: Wavy70

That depends on if you like your boss!

I don't much care for snakes... :P

Quote: Nareed

I don't much care for snakes... :P

Out of curiousity what do you do if you don't mind me asking.

Quote: winmonkeyspit3

Out of curiousity what do you do if you don't mind me asking.

IN theory I'm in sales. In actual practice, it's sales to the government. That means spend a lot of my time poring over long, boring documents checking minutiae, chasing useless papers and looking over long, long, long lists of requirements.

Of course, sometimes it's not that good.

Quote: Wizard

[On Bob's behavior....]You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet. There are many people on the forum, including some of the best members, who are in the gaming business. Your attitude about the evil of casinos will be much more welcomed at other forums.

Everyone should reread them from time to time, to know what kind of behavior is and is not appreciated by the administrators.

Mike, this is much appreciated! Thank you!

delete

Quote: Wizard

You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet. There are many people on the forum, including some of the best members, who are in the gaming business. Your attitude about the evil of casinos will be much more welcomed at other forums.

Everyone should reread them from time to time, to know what kind of behavior is and is not appreciated by the administrators.

"Casinos are vile places, a total scam, a total con." ... James Grosjean

Would Mr. Grosjean's attitude be allowed on this forum?

This forum would be "nuthing" without your wit!

Quote: Wizard

You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet.

I am no fan of Bob's, but I think this is some overreaching. The "personal insult" is obviously a joke (albeit quite classless to my taste, but nevertheless), and the purpose of the thread was to find out why paigowdan is not posting as much, not to attack him.

If anything, it was Bob who ended up under attack for an ancient post of his from another thread (offtopic? flooding? trolling?) where he mentioned a guy's race. Again, however tasteless, maybe, even xenophobic, that post was, I think, people often get completely ridiculous with their urge to label everything. Mentioning a race is not racism.

The fact that the guy who cut the line was Japanese is not very relevant to the story, that's it true ... but it is no less relevant to it, then, say, the fact that Bob was waiting to cash his chips, not to get a haircut, and that the incident happened in Vegas, not in Ohio. Without details, a story would not be a story. "Sometimes people cut in lines". What a story! (still ... "people" is irrelevant - who else could it be?).

It is also no more relevant than the fact that current US president is black, but the latter fact does get mentioned all the time. How is that not racist?

Quote: weaselman

Quote: Wizard

You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet.

I am no fan of Bob's, but I think this is some overreaching. The "personal insult" is obviously a joke (albeit quite classless to my taste, but nevertheless), and the purpose of the thread was to find out why paigowdan is not posting as much, not to attack him.

If anything, it was Bob who ended up under attack for an ancient post of his from another thread (offtopic? flooding? trolling?) where he mentioned a guy's race. Again, however tasteless, maybe, even xenophobic, that post was, I think, people often get completely ridiculous with their urge to label everything. Mentioning a race is not racism.

The fact that the guy who cut the line was Japanese is not very relevant to the story, that's it true ... but it is no less relevant to it, then, say, the fact that Bob was waiting to cash his chips, not to get a haircut, and that the incident happened in Vegas, not in Ohio. Without details, a story would not be a story. "Sometimes people cut in lines". What a story! (still ... "people" is irrelevant - who else could it be?).

It is also no more relevant than the fact that current US president is black, but the latter fact does get mentioned all the time. How is that not racist?

This comment was the clincher!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/9789-wovcon-wrapup-thread/#post146739

Quote: weaselman

Quote: Wizard

You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet.

I am no fan of Bob's, but I think this is some overreaching. The "personal insult" is obviously a joke (albeit quite classless to my taste, but nevertheless), and the purpose of the thread was to find out why paigowdan is not posting as much, not to attack him.

If anything, it was Bob who ended up under attack for an ancient post of his from another thread (offtopic? flooding? trolling?) where he mentioned a guy's race. Again, however tasteless, maybe, even xenophobic, that post was, I think, people often get completely ridiculous with their urge to label everything. Mentioning a race is not racism.

The fact that the guy who cut the line was Japanese is not very relevant to the story, that's it true ... but it is no less relevant to it, then, say, the fact that Bob was waiting to cash his chips, not to get a haircut, and that the incident happened in Vegas, not in Ohio. Without details, a story would not be a story. "Sometimes people cut in lines". What a story! (still ... "people" is irrelevant - who else could it be?).

It is also no more relevant than the fact that current US president is black, but the latter fact does get mentioned all the time. How is that not racist?

Not disputing any of your points, but there is an entire 'body of work' that the Wiz has access to. I would agree that any one of EvenBob's posts do not merit a suspension, but the entire 'body of work' does. I think the Wiz never wanted it to get to this, but just like when he cleaned up the site by ridding it of mkl, JL, and Rob Singer, he has the opportunity to clean it up further.

Quote: 1BB

Quote: Wizard

You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet. There are many people on the forum, including some of the best members, who are in the gaming business. Your attitude about the evil of casinos will be much more welcomed at other forums.

Everyone should reread them from time to time, to know what kind of behavior is and is not appreciated by the administrators.

"Casinos are vile places, a total scam, a total con." ... James Grosjean

Would Mr. Grosjean's attitude be allowed on this forum?

Yes indeed, - because Grosjean's approach would not be in the silly way that Bob had defaced this forum and gaming industry...
When asked to explain...he'd answer to an out-of-context quote presented here.
Obviously, if J. Grosjean had to gamble, he wouldn't go to a place he did or would have comtempt for, I mean, with his own money on the line there.
If he respects his money, - he respects the joint.

Enough said
Dan.

" Yes indeed, - because Grosjean's approach would not be in the silly way that Bob had defaced this forum and gaming industry..."

If people are to be suspended for being "silly" we are all in trouble.

Quote: 1BB

"Casinos are vile places, a total scam, a total con." ... James Grosjean

Would Mr. Grosjean's attitude be allowed on this forum?

That depends on the context of the quotation, the reasons for it and whatever explanation there is for his views, if any is offered.

BTW, reagrding Bob and other rather unpleasant members, just block them. You'll still see their material qutoed now and then, but you'd be spared a lot of agravation. As far as I'm concerned, Bob doesn't even exist in this board.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: 1BB

Quote: Wizard

You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet. There are many people on the forum, including some of the best members, who are in the gaming business. Your attitude about the evil of casinos will be much more welcomed at other forums.

Everyone should reread them from time to time, to know what kind of behavior is and is not appreciated by the administrators.

"Casinos are vile places, a total scam, a total con." ... James Grosjean

Would Mr. Grosjean's attitude be allowed on this forum?

Yes indeed, - because Grosjean's approach would not be in the silly way that Bob had defaced this forum and gaming industry...
When asked to explain...he'd answer to an out-of-context quote presented here.
Obviously, if J. Grosjean had to gamble, he wouldn't go to a place he did or would have comtempt for, I mean, with his own money on the line there.
If he respects his money, - he respects the joint.

Enough said
Dan.

Okay. Got it. Some people are asked to explain and others are just suspended.

The quote was not out of context at all. That's what he said and that's what he meant. Thanks for answering for the Wizard.

Quote: Nareed

That depends on the context of the quotation, the reasons for it and whatever explanation there is for his views, if any is offered.

The quote is from an interview in a publication that is not primarily gambling-related, but it focuses on James' career and professional life. I think that most APs who make it to the "big time" develop similar (or nearly identical) attitudes, as they're in a better position to see the consistent hypocrisy and constant ill-intentioned manipulation that pervades the industry. As it happens, I tend to agree with James' attitude. I'm sure that the remaining positive feelings that I hold toward casinos in general will gradually disappear as I am further inevitably subjected to some of the more severe indignities and sometimes outright crimes that some of my colleagues have been. It's tough to enjoy the lights, music, and "excitement" of the casino environment when you have friends that have been verbally abused, assaulted, handcuffed, falsely arrested, beaten, and robbed, all for not being suckers when playing a card game.

That said, I don't harbor any ill-will toward the majority of casino employees, especially dealers. Bosses will often give themselves an inflated sense of self-importance that mildly irks me at times, and security are sometimes little more than common street thugs with walkie-talkies, but dealers are usually just there to do their job and go home. I clash with Paigowdan not because of his casino affiliation or his defense of the industry itself but because of his habit of calling advantage players utilizing legal, legitimate techniques "cheats," which is precisely the attitude that allows people to be verbally abused, assaulted, handcuffed, falsely arrested, beaten, robbed, etc. in the first place. James Grosjean was detained, handcuffed, interrogated, subjected to a strip search, arrested, and spent a weekend in County, all because he was beating a card game legally. The reason this all happened is because his partner at the time was libelously labeled as a "cheat" on a Griffin flyer.

However, posting in a public forum requires thick skin at times, and weak personal attacks are not what I would call a basis for a permanent banning. As Nareed noted, you can simply block someone if you're not a fan of their posts or attitudes. I've seen regular, prominent posters on this very forum make openly bigoted, offensive comments in political threads. The solution? I stay out of political threads. Although Paigowdan would be quick to call me a "cheat" in many cases, I have no interest in having his opinions on this forum limited, despite implications in such statements that are ostensibly more harmful than a rude, tasteless comment here and there. Paigowdan is not the one on trial here, but I'm sure you see my point.

I understand while Bob's post might seem racist on the cover, however just as it is important to respect the customs and ways things operate when travelling abroad, I think he was making a point that a lot of people coming from oversees really respect the customs here and the way we operate here.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes indeed, - because Grosjean's approach would not be in the silly way that Bob had defaced this forum and gaming industry...
When asked to explain...he'd answer to an out-of-context quote presented here.

Enough said
Dan.

Quote: Wired article

""Casinos are vile places, a total scam, a total con," he says. "We convey the image of being stone-cold degenerate gamblers. Except we have skills. People think I can't give this [way of life] up because I love whacking games. I do -- but I also love writing code and running numbers."

I don't see how the rest of the "context" changes what was said about casinos...

This is a forum where intelligent discussions and information are exchanged.

There are three relationships in nature, neutralic, symbiotic, and parasitic. Neutralic does not affect each other, i.e a tree and a fish. Symbiotic, each benefits each other i.e. a bee and a flower. Parasitic, one benefit at the expense of the other, a tick and a dog. Which category do you put a casinos and players in?

James Grosjean and Bob are not wrong. Bob should not single out an individual member but his views on casino are correct. Be real, casino are not hospital, or homeless shelter doing good for mankind, it is a place where people try to win money and where the house edge keeps them from doing this as a whole. The only thing casino hate more than losing money is having no one play there!

The facts speak for themselves regardless what people want to say about casino. If you are seen as a treat to their bottom line as an AP, they can bar you at will even if you are not cheating. No one said that casino had to be fair. Why do you think that they have shows, gourmet restaurants, and four star hotels? Why do you think that fishermen have bait on the end of their hooks?

Quote: LonesomeGambler

It's tough to enjoy the lights, music, and "excitement" of the casino environment when you have friends that have been verbally abused, assaulted, handcuffed, falsely arrested, beaten, and robbed, all for not being suckers when playing a card game.

I can understand that.

However, I've had nothing but positive experiences in every casino I've played in. But then I play for recreation and mild thrills, fully expecting to spend money in the process. So I see that casinos are selling enterntainment and I'm buying it. I could make different choices, and sometimes I do.

Of course, I also do know they use some deceptive practices, like trunpeting a jackpot and not telling me the odds of winning are between slim and at the center of a every balck hole there's actually a man with a flashlight looking for the "ON" switch, if I may paraphrase Sheldon Cooper. Sometimes, for example, I won't play a new game that looks fun because I don't know the house edge. I don't mind playing at a ridiculous disdvantage, so long as I'm conscious of how big it is.

I do see how it would irk an AP not to be allowed to beat the casino at its own game, all the more so if the casino resorted to heavy-handed tactics to prevent it. Backrooming a cheater is one thing. Backrooming a card counter is inexcusable.

Quote: weaselman

Quote: Wizard

You're suspended for this one, per the rules 1 and 12 of the forum rules. I haven't decided the length of the ban yet.

I am no fan of Bob's, but I think this is some overreaching. The "personal insult" is obviously a joke (albeit quite classless to my taste, but nevertheless), and the purpose of the thread was to find out why paigowdan is not posting as much, not to attack him.

If anything, it was Bob who ended up under attack for an ancient post of his from another thread (offtopic? flooding? trolling?) where he mentioned a guy's race. Again, however tasteless, maybe, even xenophobic, that post was, I think, people often get completely ridiculous with their urge to label everything. Mentioning a race is not racism.

The fact that the guy who cut the line was Japanese is not very relevant to the story, that's it true ... but it is no less relevant to it, then, say, the fact that Bob was waiting to cash his chips, not to get a haircut, and that the incident happened in Vegas, not in Ohio. Without details, a story would not be a story. "Sometimes people cut in lines". What a story! (still ... "people" is irrelevant - who else could it be?).

It is also no more relevant than the fact that current US president is black, but the latter fact does get mentioned all the time. How is that not racist?

Weasel I think you need to reread the thread to understand why Bob was suspended.

Also maybe you will notice that "ancient post" (odd Ancient is a week old now) was in response to someone saying show one racist post Bob made. Took less than 5 minutes to link the post.

But like I said if you reread the thread you will understand that all Bob does is bash the Industry the site owner works for and calls them all thieves. Bashes the sites only sponsor even though he never plays online. Makes snide and racist remarks. If that is what he wants there are plenty of websites for that.

You set up a blog and tell everyone where you work and have them trash your industry and the company you work for. See how long before that ends.

It is not the fact that the gentleman cutting Bob in line was Asian it was the derogatory term he used for it. Then to defend that's what we always called them. Pure ignorance.

Sorry Weasle this sites main troll was suspended yesterday.

Quote: buzzpaff

Edit. Nareeds posts are fun to read and devoid of hate. Could read her posts all day.

Please point me to one of Bob's posts that are hateful. Critical, YES Honest to a fault YES But never HATEFUL !!

I agree. Another example of......because he (posts) go against the grain, somehow we need to get RID of that person. Odd as hell if you ask me.

Ken

Quote: mrjjj

I agree. Another example of......because he (posts) go against the grain, somehow we need to get RID of that person. Odd as hell if you ask me.

Ken

Ken we already did this one. He posts racist slurs. He does not think they are racist.

Quote: Gabes22

I understand while Bob's post might seem racist on the cover, however just as it is important to respect the customs and ways things operate when travelling abroad, I think he was making a point that a lot of people coming from oversees really respect the customs here and the way we operate here.

That is assuming the way the story Bob related it is true. As the only saying goes you have your side , my side and thr truth.

Quote: Wavy70

As the only saying goes you have your side , my side and the truth.

Or in other words, your side, his side, and Ken's side.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Or in other words, your side, his side, and Ken's side.

Now what if I find this post offensive? Where is this silly LINE drawn?

Ken

Quote: Wavy70

You set up a blog and tell everyone where you work and have them trash your industry and the company you work for. See how long before that ends.

Actually I would not mind at all. I am not married to my job, much less the industry I work for. Currently it is air travel - trash away, I might actually join you.
I am not particularly attached to it (and don't really try to understand or even sympathize with people who are), It's just a way I chose to make my living at the present time, not the love of my life.

Quote: mrjjj

Now what if I find this post offensive? Where is this silly LINE drawn?

Ken

Doesn't matter. There's only one person who matters to decide if a post is offensive, the forum owners.

He's made it relatively clear what he finds out of line. You don't have to like it. You can say to him "I found this offensive", but his decision is pretty much the only one that matters.

Quote: weaselman

Actually I would not mind at all. I am not married to my job, much less the industry I work for. Currently it is air travel - trash away, I might actually join you.
I am not particularly attached to it (and don't really try to understand or even sympathize with people who are), It's just a way I chose to make my living at the present time, not the love of my life.

Ok What airline, position, real name and which blog about the Air industry did you start?
I just taking a guess that the Wiz is attached to his job because his family has an unreasonable expectation to live under a roof and eat food.

Quote: thecesspit

Doesn't matter. There's only one person who matters to decide if a post is offensive, the forum owners.

He's made it relatively clear what he finds out of line. You don't have to like it. You can say to him "I found this offensive", but his decision is pretty much the only one that matters.

Yeah I got it and he can walk on water as well.

Ken

Quote: mrjjj

Yeah I got it and he can walk on water as well.

Ken

Nope, he can't. That's Jesus your confusing him with.

But he does own the keys to the front door. Just like the casino owners. You don't have to like it, but he as long as he polite and doesn't rough you up in the backroom, whats the problem?

Quote: thecesspit

Nope, he can't. That's Jesus your confusing him with.

But he does own the keys to the front door. Just like the casino owners. You don't have to like it, but he as long as he polite and doesn't rough you up in the backroom, whats the problem?

Like it, dont like it.....I could careless. My opinion is in regards to the principle of the matter, nothing else.

Ken

Quote: mrjjj

Like it, dont like it.....I could careless. My opinion is in regards to the principle of the matter, nothing else.

Ken

You keep replying, so maybe you care, just a little bit....

Quote: thecesspit

You keep replying, so maybe you care, just a little bit....

Look who's talking. (lol) I post, then you reply, then I post again, then you reply again etc.

Geez....I'll tell ya what, cause it bothers you so much, you reply to this post and we'll call it even.

Unreal.

Ken

Quote: mrjjj

Look who's talking. (lol) I post, then you reply, then I post again, then you reply again etc.

Geez....I'll tell ya what, cause it bothers you so much, you reply to this post and we'll call it even.

Unreal.

Ken

Bothered? I'm not bothered at all. I just like pointing out when people say one thing, then do another. Logical fallacies entertain me.

I'm commenting for the joy of existence.

Quote: Wavy70

Ok What airline, position, real name and which blog about the Air industry did you start?

I don't work for an airline. But why does it matter? I thought you were going to trash the whole industry, not a particular company.
I do prefer Virgin America, so you may start there.
As for the blog ... be my guest!

Quote:

I just taking a guess that the Wiz is attached to his job because his family has an unreasonable expectation to live under a roof and eat food.

I do like eating and having a roof as well ... and so does my family.
I just don't feel so insecure about my skills and qualifications as to believe that my loyalty to a particular employer (let alone the entire industry) plays any part in their decision to pay me the big bucks. My loyalties are not for sell (never were), it's my skills, my knowledge and my labor than I am selling. Take it or leave it.

Quote: weaselman

I don't work for an airline. But why does it matter? I thought you were going to trash the whole industry, not a particular company.
I do prefer Virgin America, so you may start there.
As for the blog ... be my guest!


I do like eating and having a roof as well ... and so does my family.
I just don't feel so insecure about my skills and qualifications as to believe that my loyalty to a particular employer (let alone the entire industry) plays any part in their decision to pay me the big bucks. My loyalties are not for sell (never were), it's my skills, my knowledge and my labor than I am selling. Take it or leave it.

My point was Mike is well respected in the industry. He has taken a job with a high profile company. He has been open about his Job and who he works for. He answers all question honestly and attempts to be a source for info and provide a little entertainment here but Bob has a vendetta against casinos. If you think people in Mikes work world do not know about this site you may be mistaken. Just sheer respect for that fact alone should have taught Bob to tone it down.



But his tirade against PGDan was just classless.

Quote: Wavy70

If you think people in Mikes work world do not know about this site you may be mistaken.

I don't think that. I just think they could not care less about some stranger's irrational vendetta about the casino industry in general or their high profile company in particular.
By paying so much attention to Bob's ramblings you actually add a lot more weight and validity to them than they deserve.

Before anybody poss about Free Speech, just remember this forum is NOT free. Mike picks up the tab.
In the words of Mel Brooks , " It's good to be the King"

" By paying so much attention to Bob's ramblings you actually add a lot more weight and validity to them than they deserve. "

Me thinks thou does protest too much !

Quote: buzzpaff

Before anybody poss about Free Speech, just remember this forum is NOT free. Mike picks up the tab.
In the words of Mel Brooks , " It's good to be the King"

Absolutely. He totally has a right to ban whoever he wants, no question about that.
I was just pointing out that in this particular case he might be overreacting. Not that he has no right to overreact ... just a mere fact.