Do you favor legalizing drugs
Poll
 | 19 votes (17.27%) | ||
| | 23 votes (20.9%) | ||
| | 3 votes (2.72%) | ||
| | 22 votes (20%) | ||
| | 43 votes (39.09%) |
110 members have voted
Quote: rudeboy99All I'm sure of is that the gov't "War on Drugs" run through the last 25 or 30 years has been an absolute nightmare and turned into probably the most tragic social experiment this country has seen since slavery was legal. The monetary cost is infinite, and the cost of the destruction of untold millions of our own citizens lives is surely a HUGE stain that society will never be able to undo. And for what? Street drugs are more plentiful than EVER, and the money is so HUGE and EASY, that we've become an example to the rest of the world how a country SHOULD NOT react to the illicit drug industry.
But the question is what is the alternative? The USA is already going down the path where too much of the population spends so much time stoned or high as to not be able to run their lives. At the bottom level you can see just total destruction, crack-heads and meth-heads who cannot function. At a level up it is quieter, people who can work but have an addiction problem such that they are always on the edge of life. And so many who cannot get a decent job because they cannot pass a drug test.
It isn't going to get any better soon. Too many people think their lives are supposed to be like a TV show, and when it isn't they take something to forget. It will be part of the collapse of society, the question is when.
Quote: AZDuffmanBut the question is what is the alternative?
I've said it all along - education and rehabilitation.
We spend ~$40,000,000,000 a year on the WoD. Forty Billion! And that’s just the enforcement; I suppose what would be the arrest, prosecution, and incarceration. How much do we lose in productivity? How many functioning addicts are no longer part of the “makers”, producing goods and services and paying taxes, and are now part of the “takers”, bleeding this country dry $30k a year at a time? And to what end? Drug barons living like Gods, users going in one end of the system and coming out the other worse off than they were, only to go right back in again within a few months.
We give up ~$50,000,000,000 in lost tax revenue. Fifty Billion! This abandonment of logic is costing us over $100mmm a year, each year, every year, never mind the social cost of the effect of incarceration of non-violent, non-problem stoners and space cases.
You guys that have never used; was it “fear of the 5-0” that kept you straight? Most straight arrows I know didn’t use because they care about their health and don’t like being stupid. As a man that lived the drug life and has been in the game; I didn’t get clean over fear of jail, I got clean because the life fucking blows. Getting nicked never stopped anyone I knew, all it did was make them try harder to be incognito and take bigger risks to get away.
Legalization won’t cause a flood of new users. The straight edge are gonna straight edge. The users are gonna use. The only difference is that me, you, and everyone else aren’t going to pay for it. Dump a few billion of this windfall into the schools, teach these young bucks that drugs suck. Dump a few billion into the med field, give those who missed the education a way out. And if both go unused and someone wants to work a register by day and smoke his brains out in front of an Xbox at night, then bleeding let him. He’s gonna do it anyway, WoD or not. At least he’s working and paying taxes, instead of refining his game in a jail cell on my dime.
Quote: FaceI've said it all along - education and rehabilitation.
We spend ~$40,000,000,000 a year on the WoD. Forty Billion! And that’s just the enforcement; I suppose what would be the arrest, prosecution, and incarceration. How much do we lose in productivity? How many functioning addicts are no longer part of the “makers”, producing goods and services and paying taxes, and are now part of the “takers”, bleeding this country dry $30k a year at a time? And to what end? Drug barons living like Gods, users going in one end of the system and coming out the other worse off than they were, only to go right back in again within a few months.
We give up ~$50,000,000,000 in lost tax revenue. Fifty Billion! This abandonment of logic is costing us over $100mmm a year, each year, every year, never mind the social cost of the effect of incarceration of non-violent, non-problem stoners and space cases.
You guys that have never used; was it “fear of the 5-0” that kept you straight? Most straight arrows I know didn’t use because they care about their health and don’t like being stupid. As a man that lived the drug life and has been in the game; I didn’t get clean over fear of jail, I got clean because the life fucking blows. Getting nicked never stopped anyone I knew, all it did was make them try harder to be incognito and take bigger risks to get away.
Legalization won’t cause a flood of new users. The straight edge are gonna straight edge. The users are gonna use. The only difference is that me, you, and everyone else aren’t going to pay for it. Dump a few billion of this windfall into the schools, teach these young bucks that drugs suck. Dump a few billion into the med field, give those who missed the education a way out. And if both go unused and someone wants to work a register by day and smoke his brains out in front of an Xbox at night, then bleeding let him. He’s gonna do it anyway, WoD or not. At least he’s working and paying taxes, instead of refining his game in a jail cell on my dime.
Great post.
(I know I'm seriously necro-posting on a ton of threads here. Sorry, catching up.)
http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/products/bicycle_hemp_deck/3001.php?page_id=50
I think it's a good sign. With legal pot in Colorado nearby, and quasi-legal pot in California next door, Nevada is a domino about to tumble.
It is legal here.
Quote: Givag327Not sure if this has been discussed already, kinda skimmed through it..But it can be Legal, its the businesses that have the right to choose whether or not they want to employ anyone who uses...thats going to be a big problem in Colorado and Washington.. a lot of businesses have already stated that they will not employ and terminate users.
Well in CO/WA the users are still currently breaking federal law so that is not an issue.
If the Feds legalize it gets murky. IMHO a business is free to hire who they want and should have the right to set any limit on it. (Yes, that means ANY.) However, laws are on the books. Again IMHO where safety was concerned you could make an argument that there should be a no-hire policy. Say truck drivers. Even when not using a regular user can have slower reaction times. OTOH there are businesses where you swear they hire *only* users.
I can see CA being a first to pass a law prohibiting limits on hiring users.
There's a new documentary called "How to make money selling drugs". It's on OnDemand, you may find it on yt. There's not much new information and fails to cover the medical marijuana scene. The title is worse than it appears. Yes they go through a step by step with actual dealers. but there's also a message on the war on drugs. Privately own prisons are making a fortune imprisoning people.
It's a solid 3 stars, and maybe a revelation or two. Definitely some interesting real life stories.
As long as it's legal for use at home, I'm good with it.
Quote: EvenBobNever gonna happen in a Christian country. Dream on.
You mean atheist country that purports to be Christian when it's either convenient, or faced with a crisis.
Quote: BirdgangI'd like all drugs to be legal. Not because I want to take them, that's easy now, but because it would keep from going to prison for something they decide to do to themselves. Vice crimes should have no place in an allegedly civilized country.
Heroin selling and using is generally not punished in some countries. This is bad. I'd agree with you on most drugs, but not ones that cause unbeatable addictions and financial ruin.
Quote: wrobersonThere's a House Bill going through that will reschedule marijuana. I don't know how far it goes. As I see it, with 18 states selling medical marijuana and 2 states selling recreational marijuana, the minimum reschedule needed is that of over the counter drugs. If you keep it where you need a prescription, then recreational users are still in violation of federal laws. I'm not sure I want it in the same class as alcohol. Marijuana is a natural plant in it organic state and alcohol is pretty much derived from chemistry and manipulation.
As long as it's legal for use at home, I'm good with it.
If you abuse drugs you are a loser, so I don't care if they are legal or not. But I pretty much agree, alcohol is more dangerous than pot. Hypocrites and profiteers run the country.
Marijuana? Treat it like alcohol and cigarettes - subject it to your usual bans on smoking, whatever those may be, and keep people from using it while driving. You kill someone under the influence, you pay the price. You get caught driving under the influence? Rehab, rehab, rehab.
Frankly, if you do anything bad because of drugs, you should be sent to a rehab facility, one that actually, you know, rehabilitates rather than encourages recidivism and going back to prison so companies can make tons of profits off jailbirds. And if we want people to stop using drugs, instead of this DARE nonsense, send a bunch of people to talk about the reasons that a drug sucks that people don't think about but will directly affect people in a way that people will think, "Yeah, that would suck. I'll stick to beer/weed."
Quote: treetopbuddySomething is not right with the poll results.
Too many people voted "No"?
Quote: NareedToo many people voted "No"?
38 voted "yes", more than double the naysayers. A silent majority is lurking? The principles have been clear on this matter.
Quote: treetopbuddy38 voted "yes", more than double the naysayers. A silent majority is lurking? The principles have been clear on this matter.
Not really surprising on controversial issues. Many people may support it, but may not want to publicly state their opinion for fear of stigma.
wtf ?
Quote: GandlerNot really surprising on controversial issues. Many people may support it, but may not want to publicly state their opinion for fear of stigma.
Or maybe they don't want to waste their time arguing with people who want to dictate to the rest of the world how to live their lives?
Quote: Buzzard" It meth wasn't illicit it wouldn't be cooked in neighborhoods next to elementary schools but in industrial districts with proper safety controls. "
wtf ?
I cracked up when I came to the 'wtf' lol
Quote: BizzyBHeroin selling and using is generally not punished in some countries. This is bad. I'd agree with you on most drugs, but not ones that cause unbeatable addictions and financial ruin.
If we're going with one or the other of those two, we have to take cigarettes off the legal list, because those are a bitch to quit. Of course, we could do the same for alcohol as well, knowing how many lives it has taken.
Or we could just educate people from the ground up how to be responsible with alcohol, pot, etc. and fund universal rehab for people with addictions. Nah, that's crazy. Tossing people in prison for a small amount of pot and turning them into hardened criminals so the prisons and police departments can rake in insane amounts in money and stuff is so much better.
Quote: SullumDespite all the talk of a “meth epidemic,” the drug has never been very popular. “At the height of methamphetamine’s popularity,” Hart et al. write, “there were never more than a million current users of the drug in the United States. This number is considerably lower than the 2.5 million cocaine users, the 4.4 million illegal prescription opioid users, or the 15 million marijuana smokers during the same period.” Furthermore, illicit methamphetamine use had been waning for years at the point when Newsweek identified “The Meth Epidemic” as “America’s New Drug Crisis.”
So is methamphetamine unpopular because it's illegal? Or is methamphetamine unpopular because everyone knows it's dangerous? Personally, I wouldn't touch that nasty stuff regardless of its legal status.
*****************
I'm unpersuaded by Sullum's argument that the health hazards of meth are greatly exagerated:
Quote: SullumLaboratory research also has found that “d-amphetamine and methamphetamine produce nearly identical physiological and behavioral effects,” Hart et al. write. “They both increase blood pressure, pulse, euphoria, and desire to take the drug in a dose-dependent manner. Essentially, they are the same drug.” That observation helps put methamphetamine’s risks in perspective, since d-amphetamine, a.k.a. dextroamphetamine, is one of the main ingredients in Adderall, a stimulant widely prescribed for ADHD. Hart et al. note that methamphetamine, like dextroamphetamine, increases heart rate and blood pressure, but “well below levels obtained when engaged in a rigorous physical exercise.” When given to research subjects, “the drug didn’t keep people up for consecutive days, it didn’t dangerously elevate their vital signs, nor did it impair their judgment.” Contrary to tales of meth-induced murder and mayhem, “There is no empirical evidence that suggests that even long-term users of methamphetamine pose a threat to those around them.”
I'm skeptical. Perhaps Adderall produces euphoria, but still less euphoria than street meth. Perhaps Adderall's active ingredient is less concentrated than meth on the street. Perhaps street meth users have access to enormous quantities of cheap meth, whereas Adderall users are limited by their prescription.
*******************
Sullum questions meth's addictiveness by pointing to this study:
Quote: Hart, et alUnder one condition, methamphetamine-dependent individuals were given a choice between taking a big hit of methamphetamine (50 mg) or $5 in cash. They chose the drug on about half of the opportunities. But when we increased the amount of money to $20, they almost never chose the drug.
This is also unpersuasive. Perhaps even a hardcore meth user would still choose the $20 because they know they can purchase a greater quantity of meth than the "hit" the researchers were offering. And if the user already has a closet full of meth at home, perhaps the $20 cash would be more useful.
Quote: renoThis is also unpersuasive. Perhaps even a hardcore meth user would still choose the $20 because they know they can purchase a greater quantity of meth than the "hit" the researchers were offering.
After a bit of net research and Lord knows that could be worthless. It looks like introductory hits might be about 5-10mg. The street price of meth might be near $80 per gram. So, on that basis it seems like the meth would be the better EV (in the weirdest sense possible) choice. However we know nothing about purity or other additives which could effect "customer choice"
Quote: renoAnd if the user already has a closet full of meth at home, perhaps the $20 cash would be more useful.
I think this would be interesting to speak to the researchers about. I'm curious because I think you might be onto something.
Quote: hwccdealerIf we're going with one or the other of those two, we have to take cigarettes off the legal list, because those are a bitch to quit. Of course, we could do the same for alcohol as well, knowing how many lives it has taken.
Or we could just educate people from the ground up how to be responsible with alcohol, pot, etc. and fund universal rehab for people with addictions. Nah, that's crazy. Tossing people in prison for a small amount of pot and turning them into hardened criminals so the prisons and police departments can rake in insane amounts in money and stuff is so much better.
Although cigarettes are as addictive or more than heroin according to some sources, they are far cheaper and the act of quitting does not kill you. In addition, cigarettes do not get you high. Nicotine, in my opinion, is not a dangerous drug any more than caffeine or tylenol (although tobacco is more dangerous), and is no more addicting than pizza to a big person and sleeping pills to the insomniac. Whether or not you agree with that opinion, it is established the real health hazard with cigarettes is carcinogens. I have always found comparisons between cigarettes and heroin to be false equivalencies. Unlike the OP, I think more drugs than heroin should be illegal. But cigarettes would not be on that list.
This might surprise you, but for some reason it's not working: there are no drug dealers lining up at the Taxpayer Assistance Center in Topeka between 8am and 4pm.
Kansas is not alone in demanding that drug dealers pay their fair share of taxes. Some ten to twenty states have (or once had) legislation setting tax rates on illegal drugs. The federal government once set taxes on weed under the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937, and the IRS still asks Americans to report income from bribes, drug dealing, and extortion.
Police in Arizona & Wisconsin have used the used the tax as evidence to prosecute drug dealers, which might explain why dealers are so reluctant to pay it. Also, drug dealers don't like taxes.
Quote: renoPolice in Arizona & Wisconsin have used the used the tax as evidence to prosecute drug dealers, which might explain why dealers are so reluctant to pay it.
That's the answer right there. If you're doing something illegal, you don't let someone else document your activities. Granted many criminals are stupid, they're not that stupid.
Quote:Also, drug dealers don't like taxes.
Unlike law-abiding citizens who just love to pay taxes? ;)
Quote: renoFinally, some good news: Kansas is trying to collect tax revenue from drug dealers. The Kansas Dept of Revenue promises they won't arrest dealers who self-incriminate themselves. All they are asking is for dealers to pay $3.50 per gram of marijuana. (For those of us in America, that means $98 per ounce.) That's bad, but not outrageous. For dealers who sell pills (MDMA, Oxy, Vicodin, etc) the tax is $2,000 per pill. Now that is outrageous.
This might surprise you, but for some reason it's not working: there are no drug dealers lining up at the Taxpayer Assistance Center in Topeka between 8am and 4pm.
Kansas is not alone in demanding that drug dealers pay their fair share of taxes. Some ten to twenty states have (or once had) legislation setting tax rates on illegal drugs. The federal government once set taxes on weed under the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937, and the IRS still asks Americans to report income from bribes, drug dealing, and extortion.
Police in Arizona & Wisconsin have used the used the tax as evidence to prosecute drug dealers, which might explain why dealers are so reluctant to pay it. Also, drug dealers don't like taxes.
Thanks to this post I fell down a Wikipedia hole about Timothy Leary and "turn on, tune in, drop opt."
Quote: Timothy LearyUnhappily my explanations of this sequence of personal development were often misinterpreted to mean "Get stoned and abandon all constructive activity."
lol
Take energy drinks for example, they give the body vivacity, regular use of them, will cause addiction, the body will stop producing that vivacity you had before, it will know that it will get it from the energy drink. If you quit drinking them, then you will feel a decline of mood and your strength, you will lose such activity, and all this lasts for several days. Even they are addictive, and you want to convince me that drugs can be used and should be legalized? Stupid!!!
Right now you can buy some joints in legal shops. Less crimes, new taxes etc
So yeah, we should legalize some of them, why the hell not.
Quote: paisiello [/q
Or maybe they don't want to waste their time arguing with people who want to dictate to the rest of the world how to live their lives?
link to original post
EXACTLY____!!!!!
what right has the BIG BAD GUVMENT got to tell somebody who is stoned out of their minds that they can't drive a car or a truck
or that they can't buy a gigantic arsenal capable of taking out a small city - so what if they're so stoned or drunk they can't even brush their own teeth
that's nobody's business
the GUVMENT has no right at all to do this
everybody should have like TOTAL FREEDOM
yeaaaaaaah, THAT'S THE TICKET____________________________!!!!!!!
.
