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Nareed
Nareed
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October 16th, 2011 at 1:01:06 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

What is the purpose of restricting drugs but not
alcohol ? Both are drugs.



There is actually a qualitative difference. As far as I know, if you take any drugs you get high. You can get high on alcohol, but there are degrees. Most people just get a pleasant buzz, not quite high you might say, while most adults can handle 1 or 2 drinks without any intoxicating effect at all.

Of course, you can also get high on glue, pain thinner and even too little oxygen. I'd like to see prohibition on that.

Quote:

DUI drivers kill many many innocent bystanders. Yet I have seen several articles in my state on repeat offenders with more than 10 DUI convictions still out there driving. Why haven't they been locked up and the key tossed out ?



That's a very good question.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
reno
reno
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October 16th, 2011 at 1:17:27 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

To think that drug use will not go up under legalizatgion is fantasy.



If heroin were legalized tomorrow, would you shoot up, AZDuffman? Of course not. Responsible Americans will not be shooting up heroin regardless of its legality.

From Forbes magazine: "Drug warriors often contend that drug use would skyrocket if we were to legalize or decriminalize drugs in the United States. Fortunately, we have a real-world example of the actual effects of ending the violent, expensive War on Drugs and replacing it with a system of treatment for problem users and addicts. Ten years ago, Portugal decriminalized all drugs. One decade after this unprecedented experiment, drug abuse is down by half..."

When Prohibition was repealed did alcohol consumption skyrocket? A couple Harvard economists determined: "We find that alcohol consumption fell sharply at the beginning of Prohibition, to approximately 30 percent of its pre-Prohibition level. During the next several years, however, alcohol consumption increased sharply, to about 60-70 percent of its pre-prohibition level. The level of consumption was virtually the same immediately after Prohibition as during the latter part of Prohibition, although consumption increased to approximately its pre-Prohibition level during the subsequent decade."


Quote: AZDuffman

To think if I could buy a vial of cocaine next to the cigarettes will keep illegal sellers from popping up is also not likely...



If coke was legal and I was already a junkie, I'd go for the 100% pure pharmeceutical-grade stuff at the drug store, I wouldn't be buying from the shady guy in the alley who might be cutting his product with impurities.
rxwine
rxwine
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October 16th, 2011 at 1:39:11 PM permalink
Quote: reno

From Forbes magazine: "Drug warriors often contend that drug use would skyrocket if we were to legalize or decriminalize drugs in the United States. Fortunately, we have a real-world example of the actual effects of ending the violent, expensive War on Drugs and replacing it with a system of treatment for problem users and addicts. Ten years ago, Portugal decriminalized all drugs. One decade after this unprecedented experiment, drug abuse is down by half..."



I'd be curious to know how it impacted organized crime, though they didn't mention it there. Although I'm sure criminals find a different venue to work lacking drug traffic, addicts are a sure source of constant funds.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Face
Administrator
Face
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October 16th, 2011 at 3:59:21 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

There is actually a qualitative difference. As far as I know, if you take any drugs you get high. You can get high on alcohol, but there are degrees. Most people just get a pleasant buzz, not quite high you might say, while most adults can handle 1 or 2 drinks without any intoxicating effect at all.



They work the same. You can take a puff or a bump and have a very minor, yet noticable, effect. You can still problems solve, do work, follow a story, compose yourself, just like having one beer. You could smoke a joint or do a line and get silly, same as you could drink a six pack and get silly. Or you could do the whole bag in a sitting same as you could drink a fifth in one sitting and get schnockered. Hallucinogens are more of an "all or nothing" experience, but most others are no different than alcohol.

Quote: reno

If heroin were legalized tomorrow, would you shoot up, AZDuffman? Of course not. Responsible Americans will not be shooting up heroin regardless of its legality.

If coke was legal and I was already a junkie, I'd go for the 100% pure pharmeceutical-grade stuff at the drug store, I wouldn't be buying from the shady guy in the alley who might be cutting his product with impurities.



Good points. Just look to tobacco and alcohol for examples. Both are legal, yet not everyone does it. And while a select few brew their own, you don't have a massive underground operation that sells possibly poisonous swill at 40x's market value, and a multi-billion dollar inept operation trying to stop it.

Quote: rxwine

I'd be curious to know how it impacted organized crime, though they didn't mention it there. Although I'm sure criminals find a different venue to work lacking drug traffic, addicts are a sure source of constant funds.



In the drug section of organized crime, I don't see how it couldn't improve. Money is the only way this works. Let's use weed as our example. The actual cost to make one plant is beyond minimal. If you grow a veggie garden from seed, you already have all the skills necessary. Corn is amazingly more difficult to grow than weed, and even corn's not that hard. Plant seed, water, wait, water, wait, water, harvest. The cost is cents. The worth, at least in street value, is hundreds if not thousands of dollars, depending on quality and size, and that's just ONE plant.

A green pepper plant, in weight of usable product, is comparable to that of weed. How much is a few green peppers at the local farmers market? $2? $4? So due to it's illegal status, weed is 500x's more expensive. Legalize it, put it into the hands of farmers, the private sector, and tax the bejeezuz out of it, and you have a new "industry", a new tax revenue, and could still do it at a fraction of the cost of the current blackmarket rate. Weed is no longer worth it to the kingpins to go to all the trouble of growing, harvesting, shipping and distributing. So not only don't you have a Narc army to support, you have less police work in cathcing mules crossing the border, or the violence the drug cartels create.

I honestly can not think of, nor have I been suggested to, any single reason why legalization would be worse than "America's War on America".
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AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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October 16th, 2011 at 4:29:38 PM permalink
Quote: reno

If heroin were legalized tomorrow, would you shoot up, AZDuffman? Of course not. Responsible Americans will not be shooting up heroin regardless of its legality.



Would I? Nope, espically not heroin. But I would bet lots of people would snort cocaine.




Quote:

If coke was legal and I was already a junkie, I'd go for the 100% pure pharmeceutical-grade stuff at the drug store, I wouldn't be buying from the shady guy in the alley who might be cutting his product with impurities.



You are a logical person. If the street guy is selling it for half the price the junkies will still be buying. Illegal cigarettes sell well.
Tolerance is the virtue of believing in nothing
reno
reno
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October 17th, 2011 at 4:26:22 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The public desire to legalize marijuana has been growing weaker over the decades. The time has come and gone.



Paco wrote this in an old thread from 2010, so maybe he's changed his mind since then. Based upon this graph released by Gallup today, it's only a matter of time before pot is legal:

IvanYerkanoff
IvanYerkanoff
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August 26th, 2012 at 11:47:47 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

" And for purposes of this discussion, it is assumed drugs would be legal only for adults. "

How exactly would that keeps kids away from drugs ??????????????????????????



Amazingly enough, better than 50% (I think around 53% or so) of all Americans feel that marijuana should be as legal as alcohol and treated the same. Politicians don't go with what the people want; they do whatever the hell they please purporting themselves as acting "in the public's best interest", when in fact they are looking at their own agendas and nothing more. Both parties act in unison and are in agreement for different reasons! Republicans think that something is immoral and some sort of sin against Jesus or something... and Democrats feel that people are just too stupid to think for themselves so we have to do it FOR them!

Let's talk about the stigma and bottom lines of it all. Nancy Reagan "Just say no" (and saying this as her secret service agents and doctors are seeing to her various prescription drugs). Honestly, marijuana is less harmful than alcohol but was conveniently added into the "War on drugs". The really stupid thing (that has been pointed out) is how with marijuana NOT being illegal and on the black market, your teenage child would play holy hell in obtaining it and have it about impossible as it is for them to obtain a six-pack of beer... currently they can EASILY obtain marijuana much more easily than they can get their evil little mitts on a six-pack of beer. Why is this? Because alcohol is closely regulated, taxed to high heaven and the laws are stringent on sale to minors. It is just not feasible or profitable for alcohol to be on the black market to any extent.

If you were to legalize marijuana and treat it just the same as alcohol:

- You would ELIMINATE the black market and it would no longer be profitable or feasible for a criminal element to be making money on it.

- The taxes you would collect are OFF THE CHART! It would take a huge chunk out of that national debt instead of adding to it with "The war on drugs".

- You would piss off America's youth, since THEN the damn stuff is just as hard to get your hands on as that six-pack of beer if you are a minor!

- Prisons are big business in America, eating up taxpayer dollars but there are those that turn a nice buck out of our prison system with the privatization that has occurred in recent years. Simple marijuana possession gets you a stay in prison and will obviously be detracting from you being a normal productive working enterprising individual--- Go ask Tommy Chong! hahaha You would eliminate a percentage of our prison population that if not for being incarcerated for having the evil marijuana, would be working, tax-paying productive people.


Now let's look at this from a little DIFFERENT point of view:

- We, the government have spent HUGE money on this "War on drugs" and because we can't admit to making a mistake after this much time, hype, money and effort has gone into this (marijuana) portion of the project, there is NO WAY we can stop now! We won't let you down, Nancy... you dizzy b*tch---"Just Say No"!

- We, the pharmaceutical companies HATE marijuana! We want it as illegal as it can get because marijuana use apparently eliminates a portion of our own legal dope that we are pushing on TV commercials each and every day and what REALLY pisses us off is that there are no side effects like when you take our product that induces nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, cramps, etc., etc.! What if this costs us money damnit!!!???? Oh well, it's a good thing we have the politicians in our back pockets with our lobbyists so legal marijuana will never happen if WE can help it!

Substance use and abuse is common in our society and I believe in allowing people to think for themselves and use common sense. Drug abuse is OKAY in our society, as long as you are buying it from a government condoned drug dealer, such as Pfizer or Merck! Legalize it, tax it and administer laws that treat marijuana just the same as tobacco and alcohol and BE DONE WITH IT!
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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August 27th, 2012 at 7:05:54 AM permalink
Quote: IvanYerkanoff

If you were to legalize marijuana and treat it just the same as alcohol:

- The taxes you would collect are OFF THE CHART! It would take a huge chunk out of that national debt instead of adding to it with "The war on drugs".


That is, until somebody figures out that you can grow marijuana in your own backyard, and it's pretty much impossible for anybody to tax it without using the same "brute force" tactics they use now, except that instead of arresting somebody for growing it, they would demand to see the tax certificates. Also, what happens when somebody figures out that you probably can't tax the stuff grown on tribal (i.e. "Indian") lands, any more than you can tax their cigarettes?

Quote:

You would piss off America's youth, since THEN the damn stuff is just as hard to get your hands on as that six-pack of beer if you are a minor!


Again, not if they grow it themselves - and what crime would they be committing when they do?

Personally, I think cannabis should be treated the same as, say, Vicodin - something available via prescription. (Speaking of Vicodin, if you don't make every drug legal without a prescription, what good would that do, since there will still be a black market for whatever is illegal?)
Mission146
Mission146
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August 27th, 2012 at 8:29:19 AM permalink
Crime?

You make it a crime, quadruple the sentence for home-growing, impose a minimum 10K fine.

The Government could be the sole distributor thereby collecting the revenues and the tax dollars.

If you had the power to ensure ridiculous levels of revenue by making competition with you as illegal (and costly) as Hell, why wouldn't you?
Vultures can't be choosers.
24Bingo
24Bingo
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August 30th, 2012 at 10:19:10 AM permalink
Quote: IvanYerkanoff

Amazingly enough, better than 50% (I think around 53% or so) of all Americans feel that marijuana should be as legal as alcohol and treated the same. Politicians don't go with what the people want; they do whatever the hell they please purporting themselves as acting "in the public's best interest", when in fact they are looking at their own agendas and nothing more. Both parties act in unison and are in agreement for different reasons! Republicans think that something is immoral and some sort of sin against Jesus or something... and Democrats feel that people are just too stupid to think for themselves so we have to do it FOR them!



Where this line of reasoning breaks down is that most of those 53% aren't especially likely to change their vote based on a candidate's marijuana policy, whereas the other 47% would react as if they'd endorsed zoophilia. So yeah, they're just being politicians, not ideologues.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.

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