Time of Use Electrical Power Option

The electric company is offering a time of use option to potentially save money.
Current rate is 11.793 cents/kilowatt hour.

They are offering a tiered rate at high at 12.368 cents/kwh, and low 10.649 cents/kwh .
High period is 5-7 PM for 8 months of the year Oct-Jun, other 22 hours a day are low.
High period is 1-6 PM for 4 months of the year Jul-Sep, other 19 hours a day are low.

The idea is that you would defer cooking, showering, dishwashing, laundering, etc. during those 2 hours a day in fall/winter (defined as 8 months Oct-Jun), and for those 5 hours a day in summer (defined as 4 months Jul-Sep). You could go further and put your hot water, and your refrigerators on timers so that they turn off during high power usage.

If I put the numbers into a spreadsheet, and assuming that power usage during peak hours is cut to zero, it reduces the bill by almost 10% a year. Since that is an extreme state (you will undoubtedly use some power during peak hours), the savings could be only 5% or 6%. The savings are offset because the peak hour rate is higher than the current state with no time of use

But it occurs to me that their may be a side benefit. By increasing awareness of critical hours, the overall consumption of electricity by people in the house may be reduced, and not just time shifted. That could result in some more realistic savings of up to 15% or 20% per year.

It also seems to me that it is possible that frustration will set in, and people will go to the habit of using power whenever they want it. Not deferring summer showers, etc. It would be possible to nullify any advantage of the system. I am also not sure if turning off refrigerators for two to five hours a day will have a severe effect on food shelf life.

Does anyone on the forum have some experience with this option for power consumption? Any thoughts or frustrations?

Similar Program
The power company installs a meter on your central A/C unit/heat pump. In the summer they will turn down or turn off your compressor when it is very hot, thus controlling peak demand. I don't think you have the power to override even at a penalty price. This program seems less appealing because it could save less money and you are not in control.

Quote: pacomartin

Similar Program
The power company installs a meter on your central A/C unit/heat pump. In the summer they will turn down or turn off your compressor when it is very hot, thus controlling peak demand. I don't think you have the power to override even at a penalty price. This program seems less appealing because it could save less money and you are not in control.

Southern California Edison is already offering this option. You don't have control, and cannot overrride their decision to cut off your AC. They estimate an average savings of $200 over the course of a summer.

I don't think it could work in Las Vegas, where air temperature means life and death for pets and other living things in your house.

This happens in Ontario, Canada, as well. You can sign up to a program called PeakSaver. How it works:

"During hot summer weekdays when electricity usage is very high and electricity supply is critically low, your Local Electricity Distribution Company will send a message to your thermostat through wireless pager system to turn your temperature up by 2°C. The temperature will be adjusted only on a hottest day from May 1st to September 30th, and between 1 p.m. and 10 p.m. Typically, the adjustment occurs during the summer peak demand hours of 1:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. for a maximum of four hours, and never on weekends or holidays. Your programmable thermostat would be adjusted on an average five times to a maximum of 40 hours plus
emergencies like a potential blackout. At the end of the scheduled temperature control period, your thermostat setting will revert to its original setting."

For enrolling you get the thermostat, installation, and a $25 credit. You program your thermostat ONLINE.

Ontario also has tiered rates and are installing Smartmeters throughout the province. Rates are 10.7 cents weekdays between 11am and 5pm, 8.9 cents weekdays between 7am and 11am, and 5pm and 7pm, and 5.9 cents for all other times (per hour). This is from May to October. in the winter months it switches with peak between 7 and 11 and 5 to 7pm.

For me personally, it affects the way that I use electricity. We don't have A/C in the house, but we avoid doing laundry and running the dishwasher in peak periods. I guess a major benefit to others would be to push back cooking until 7pm.

I wonder if all the hot air and paperwork generated by such programs is counter-productive.

Pricing of High Occupancy Vehicle lanes, electrical rates, bridge and tunnel tolls, parking fees, etc. are often touted as benefits, but I have no idea if its actually worth anything.

When HOV lanes were first introduced, Hippies in the San Francisco suburbs would rent themselves out as lane-qualifying passengers, riding into San Francisco in the morning and riding out in the late afternoon. HOV lanes became a subsidy for being a flower child and probably lead to a good number of attractive young hippie chicks adding to the welfare rolls by getting pregnant by males driving to and from suburban homes.

Brownout and blackout avoidance may be admirable and doing it with money-induced voluntary choice sounds great but I've no idea if it is effective. When TV stations broadcast a power company appeal to turn off air conditioners, I'm sure most people just assume that others will do it and that they themselves will both reap the benefit of blackout avoidance as well as staying cool while do-gooders sweat.

Quote: pacomartin

Does anyone on the forum have some experience with this option for power consumption? Any thoughts or frustrations?

My thought is liberals will think this is just dandy until it affects their lives in a negative way, then they will woner why they have to sit in the heat in the summer.

Conservatives will warn people about giving up their freedom and in turn be accused for "hating the envrionment."

As to me, I would NEVER let the power company have the option to control my usage in my home.

Quote: boymimbo

Ontario also has tiered rates and are installing Smartmeters throughout the province. Rates are 10.7 cents weekdays between 11am and 5pm, 8.9 cents weekdays between 7am and 11am, and 5pm and 7pm, and 5.9 cents for all other times (per hour). This is from May to October. in the winter months it switches with peak between 7 and 11 and 5 to 7pm.

I would go for this option in a heartbeat. The very low rate overnight from 7PM to 7AM means you could do your washing at night, you could put a timer on your hot water heater and use up the water in a day. You could even run basement dehumidifiers at night only.

The rates are very low compared to those being offered in Pennsylvania. In PA they are 12.368 cents / hour peak and 10.649 cents per hour off peak (combined generation and distribution rates). The off peak is nearly the same as your peak rate. Is power that much cheaper in Canada or are you just giving me the electricity generation rates .

The fridge timer could be a scary thing for you primary food fridge. You likely then have your AC controlled as well so the house will be warm. Your fridge will be warming up possibly significantly and food safety would become a concern. If the fridge didn't warm up then the timer wouldn't matter since the fridge would not have come on anyway. It could be hidden food problems because the temperature might be back down by the time you were using anything out of the fridge.

If it is a beer fridge in the basement then not so important but the power company is probably asking you to just get rid of the beer fridge anyway.

The real savings from time of day rates come if your are able to store energy that you purchase off peak to use during peak times, not necessarily easy to do.

Such programs do not limit energy availability as much as alter the price that is charged at peak hours and allow shedding of load if need be. Many people opt for off grid living or atleast off grid capability for such reasons.

Co-generation was such a threat to utilities that one of the first customers to attempt it was told "you either take all your power from us or none of it".

Quote: pacomartin

I would go for this option in a heartbeat. The very low rate overnight from 7PM to 7AM means you could do your washing at night, you could put a timer on your hot water heater and use up the water in a day. You could even run basement dehumidifiers at night only.

The rates are very low compared to those being offered in Pennsylvania. In PA they are 12.368 cents / hour peak and 10.649 cents per hour off peak (combined generation and distribution rates). The off peak is nearly the same as your peak rate. Is power that much cheaper in Canada or are you just giving me the electricity generation rates .

No. Add $16.79 as a monthly base charge and then distribution charges of $.0267/kWH and then a .0067/kwh for a Regulatory component. Oh yeah, and 13% HST. So, no it ain't that cheap.

Quote: boymimbo

Add $16.79 as a monthly base charge...

My brother and his wife use 10 kWh per day on average. I think heating, cooking, and hot water are all gas (80 year old house). So it is just one refrigerator and a TV plus some lights and a computer. That kind of base charge would be very unfair.

Quote: FleaStiff

Co-generation was such a threat to utilities that one of the first customers to attempt it was told "you either take all your power from us or none of it".

I was just looking at a government essay that says that no one can generate power on their own for cheaply enough to compete with the grid. It is only for rural locations where you can't afford to run wires.

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Wikipedia says that the USA generates 4,369 (TWh per year in 2008), so using a population of 115 million households, I get 38,000 KWh per household per year.

So if Al Gore's house uses 221,000 KWh in one year, that would make him kind of a pig.

Quote: AZDuffman

My thought is liberals will think this is just dandy until it affects their lives in a negative way, then they will woner why they have to sit in the heat in the summer.

Conservatives will warn people about giving up their freedom and in turn be accused for "hating the envrionment."

As to me, I would NEVER let the power company have the option to control my usage in my home.

The company is only controling your usage by utilizing a time-of-use price for consumption. Some such programs (ComEd in IL, all ERCOT members in TX, Horizon and Toronto Hydro in Ontario, others) actually use the published hourly index market rates as the basis for pricing this option.

It's odd that a market-based pricing system would be considered a liberal conspiracy against consumers...

Quote: rdw4potus

The company is only controling your usage by utilizing a time-of-use price for consumption. Some such programs (ComEd in IL, all ERCOT members in TX, Horizon and Toronto Hydro in Ontario, others) actually use the published hourly index market rates as the basis for pricing this option.

It's odd that a market-based pricing system would be considered a liberal conspiracy against consumers...

There are two types of programs. One is where time usage is controlled by pricing structure, the other is where the power company has the power to turn down the power consumption of your air-conditioner. I think EvenBob is talking about the latter.

I like the idea of hourly pricing, but I can see how some people would be horrified by it. If enough people join a TOU program that specifies 5-7PM as peak hour, there will be a giant rush at 7PM. With a program that changes by the hour, you could opt to do very power consuming chores like drying clothes, heating hot water, dish-washing, and dehumidifying the basement in the middle of the night. Timers would be an initial solution, but eventually the data could be broadcast to the home so the appliances know when to turn on and off.

Additionally, power hungry industrial applications, or even warehouses could be adapted to make use of cheap power in off hours. This would have the potential to take the pressure off building new power plants which are all driven only by peak usage. Timers are much cheaper to operate than very expensive equipment that only shaves off a few KWh from a standard.

I've seen studies that say there is as much as 100% variation in the electric bills of two homes that have identical square footage and major appliances. It all depends on the people in the house.

Quote: pacomartin

There are two types of programs. One is where time usage is controlled by pricing structure, the other is where the power company has the power to turn down the power consumption of your air-conditioner. I think EvenBob is talking about the latter.

I like the idea of hourly pricing, but I can see how some people would be horrified by it. If enough people join a TOU program that specifies 5-7PM as peak hour, there will be a giant rush at 7PM. With a program that changes by the hour, you could opt to do very power consuming chores like drying clothes, heating hot water, dish-washing, and dehumidifying the basement in the middle of the night. Timers would be an initial solution, but eventually the data could be broadcast to the home so the appliances know when to turn on and off.

Additionally, power hungry industrial applications, or even warehouses could be adapted to make use of cheap power in off hours. This would have the potential to take the pressure off building new power plants which are all driven only by peak usage. Timers are much cheaper to operate than very expensive equipment that only shaves off a few KWh from a standard.

I've seen studies that say there is as much as 100% variation in the electric bills of two homes that have identical square footage and major appliances. It all depends on the people in the house.

That giant residential rush at 7pm is exactly what the power company is hoping for. Rather than having a big spike from 5ish-7ish when commercials are still running and residential usage is high, there's a lower prolonged peak from 5ish to 9ish. The power company very specifically wants to both lower and levelize the total usage by delaying residential demand until after commercials are off-line. In a lot of cases, it's the difference between paying 2 gas-fired power plants to run for 2 hours and 1 gas-fired plant to run for 4 hours. It's also cheaper and easier to maintain a system with a lower peak, and easier to schedule power to a less variable grid with lower peak consumption.

You're right about industrial users as well. Many have added a 3rd shift, or shifted to a 2nd and 3rd shift schedule, leaving the office as the only 1st shift part of the facility. This is especially true for customers with highly variable demand, like mills with arc furnaces and other high consumption, low run-rate equipment. Some places, like Illinois, often have negative off-peak pricing due to excess nuclear and coal-fired combined-cycle plant capacity during the overnights. There, obviously, many industrials have shifted their load to take advantage of the off-peak pricing.

I was surprised to see how much both the cost and use of electricity sure does vary around the USA (and the world).

The average electric bill varies from $64.30 in New Mexico to $153.72 in Maryland.
Usage varies from 521 kWh per month in Maine, to 1,273 kWh in Louisiana.
Rates go from 7.58 cents per kWh in North Dakota to 20.33 cents per kWh in Connecticut (and 24.20 cents in Hawaii ).

Some of it makes sense. In New England it's too cold to think about heating your house or water primarily with electricity, while at the same time you don't need much airconditioning. So usage is very low, but then you are betrayed because the rates are very high. Usage is high in the American South (except Florida) because you need a lot of air conditioning, which can only be done easily using electric power. You would think solar power would be used in Hawaii, but it's mostly petroleum (highest rate in the country).

We still get 30% of our electricity from burning coal. I remember having a coal bin in our cellar as a kid. I wonder how many people remember that?

Evaluate efficiency measures that depend on time-variant electric costs to yield savings. Thermal storage systems (in which chillers run only at night to make chilled water or ice to be used during the day) are now available in both modular and large central systems. Daylighting systems that cut electric lighting loads (typically near the grid peak) may become more cost-effective under a time-based rate.







solar hot water installation

I started this thread in the fall, but since then the price of electricity has dropped considerably, and the price of home heating oil keeps rising. The price of gas heat is so low now compared to heating oil that most people are switching, but some places don't have the option because there are no gas lines.

For those of you unfamiliar with home heating oil (HHO), it is identical to diesel fuel, and it is used primarily in the Northeast. In a pinch you can use diesel fuel, but HHO is slightly cheaper because you don't pay road taxes. It is dyed red to indicate that no road taxes were paid. Very few homes have it in America, but many people are trapped with it. Maine in particular is very dependent on HHO. It's price mirrors gasoline prices

A gallon of HHO is equivalent to 40.6 kWh of electricity with no efficiency factors. If electricity goes to 10 cents a kWh, and HHO goes to $4.60 per gallon, they would be identically priced on a thermal level.

But I would argue that electricity is already cheaper than oil. First off, the oil boiler is only 85% efficient, and furthermore systems of steam radiators and lack of zone control makes an unknown waste by heating areas of the house and basement which are empty.

A quick review of the last four years for the house follows:

Winter	gallons	price
2008/09	2,042	$4,200
2009/10	1,666	$3,579
2010/11	1,877	$5,621
2011/12	1,600	$5,700

If the next winter is harsh, and use goes back up near 2000 gallons, the price of HHO seems headed for $4/gallon or higher (along with automotive diesel). The house could go to $8K-$10K to heat.

Like I said, conversion to gas would be a no-brainer, but gas pipes are not an option. Ripping out the steam pipe system involves moving about 6 tons of radiators and steam pipes. Conversion to electric radiant heat would involve considerable investment.

The savings would hopefully come from zone control, by heating rooms with people in them.

These heaters with ceramic bricks are being advertised, which can take advantage of time of use pricing plans and dissipate heat from the bricks over the course of the day,


For the last century, electric heat has always been considerably more expensive to operate than any other kind of heat. Any guesses as to what things could look like in five years? What would you do?