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Nareed
Nareed
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February 15th, 2011 at 7:20:58 AM permalink
Quote: kracker21

What did he say that is wrong? If you dont agree with someone you just call them a troll and ignorant.



Everything he said was wrong, not to mention condescending and hypocritical. Just what we've come to expect from the poor man's Jerry Logan.

In any case, I'm not going to get into an argument with either of you. It's not worth my time. If I had a dime for every person who said "but that still doesn't make you a woman," I could afford to retire to a private Caribbean island . It's shocking, isn't it, that I've heard it all before.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Nareed
Nareed
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February 15th, 2011 at 10:00:56 AM permalink
Quote: kracker21

What did he say that is wrong? If you dont agree with someone you just call them a troll and ignorant.



BTW, mkl is stating an opinion and claiming it's "the simple truth." He has not offered any facts to supoprt his opinion, and the occasional claims he makes about the whole of the SRS process are wrong. Here he said there are no anatomical changes, which any surgeon could disprove in seconds. Elsewhere he said there are no changes to the body's chemistry, which any endocrinologist could aslo disprove in seconds.

So, really, I fail to see why I should take his opinion as manifest truth for no reason other than he claims it is. I fail to see why he should expect anyone to care or even listen, either. Honestly, I'd prefer if he stated his hostility out in the open, instead of disguising it as compassion.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
sunrise089
sunrise089
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February 15th, 2011 at 10:27:01 AM permalink
@Nareed - I certainly support your right to do whatever you would like with your body, and I have no reason to believe you're anything other than a delightful person, both now and before you had surgury, and regardless of what gender you consider yourself.

That said, if MKL doesn't "own" the interpretation of gender than neither do you. I'm not sure why MKL has such strong feelings on this issue, but perhaps it is because of his family member's own bad experience with a similar process (MKL, while undoubtedly bright, sometimes seems to put great importance in his personal experiences and draw broader conclusions from them). Whatever his reasons though, if he doesn't consider you a woman that's his right, and it doesn't automatically make him a troll, or even ignorant if he's defending his views based on some sort of logical framework.

I think what Kracker was saying earlier in the thread with his Impalla/Corvette analogy is actually very on point. In the classic car world there are some very nice reproduction models. For instance, there are "1971 Plymouth Hemi 'Cudas" that literally are composed of 100% genuine and original parts found on actual '71 Hemi 'Cudas as they came from the factory. There are zero appearence or drivability differences between these cars and the factory models. However the VIN plate, the closest thing a car has to a soul, shows that they were not originally made as Hemi 'Cudas but rather as base six cylinder models. The market treats these cars as something much less than the genuine article.

I view sex changes in somewhat the same way. If one only cares about the physical appearence, whch is a valid view IMHO, a perfect sex change would really result in a change in gender. If one believes that God or mother nature or fate made someone be born a certain gender then another legitimate view would be to say that's the gender that person really is regardless of physical changes.

Right now though, there is a "VIN plate for gender:" sex chromosomes. Aside from a tiny percentage of people born with non-XX/XY pairings, humans have either one or the other. There is a huge variation in hormone levels, sexual organ shapes and sizes, etc, but the chromosomes are pretty much the chromosomes. If I were inclined to support MKL's view I'd then argue that while a person born XY may move their physical characterestics along the XY spectrum to something closer to the average charactistics of people born XX, they still exist on that XY spectrum, and our current level of science and technology can't change that.

BTW, all of the above is my best current understanding. I welcome being corrected on technical details if I have them wrong. But while anyone is free to tell me that they "own" the meanings of gender in a metaphysical sense don't expect me to accept that view.
Nareed
Nareed
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February 15th, 2011 at 10:52:35 AM permalink
Quote: sunrise089

I think what Kracker was saying earlier in the thread with his Impalla/Corvette analogy is actually very on point.



I'm at work and rather busy, so I can't give a proper answer. But I do want to address this point:

The analogy with a car is so far off I'm stunned it's made at all. Biological organisms are more malleable than mechanical sistems. It's not unlike the argument comparing evolution to the odds that a tornado blowing through a junk yard will produce a fully functional 747. It just doesn't make sense.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
thecesspit
thecesspit
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February 15th, 2011 at 12:49:47 PM permalink
There's a difference between "gender identity" and "biological sex".

I do find mkl using the terms "he/she/it" rather rude, as the "it" quite clearly shows a disregard for someone's gender identity and outward appearance, and dismisses such difference between biology and identity in one easy phrase.

You can't change someone's chromosomes from XX to XY (or vice versa). That doesn't mean that someone can't switch (or actually be a different) gender (identity) on any one of a number different ways, from clothing, speech, personality, affectations, biological outward apperance or inward biology. How far down that route each person wants to go is up to them. I only really know people who have transgendered outwardly. As a cisgender, and one whose not studied the area, I don't pretend to understand much more than that.

The difference between gender identity and biology is also one that's similar to the difference between ethnicity and ethnic appearance. Or at least from the Body Recovery and Identification world...
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
mkl654321
mkl654321
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February 15th, 2011 at 4:49:04 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

BTW, mkl is stating an opinion and claiming it's "the simple truth." He has not offered any facts to supoprt his opinion, and the occasional claims he makes about the whole of the SRS process are wrong. Here he said there are no anatomical changes, which any surgeon could disprove in seconds. Elsewhere he said there are no changes to the body's chemistry, which any endocrinologist could aslo disprove in seconds.

So, really, I fail to see why I should take his opinion as manifest truth for no reason other than he claims it is. I fail to see why he should expect anyone to care or even listen, either. Honestly, I'd prefer if he stated his hostility out in the open, instead of disguising it as compassion.



NAREED IS NOT A WOMAN.

NAREED WILL NEVER BE A WOMAN. (Unless he lives long enough that such technology actually exists to achieve that--extremely unlikely.)

NO PERSON BORN A MAN CAN PHYSICALLY BECOME A WOMAN (exclusive of pathologies that arrest puberty, etc.), AND VICE VERSA.

Simple truths. Their truth exists independent of whether I, Nareed, or anyone else agrees with it. The impossible is...impossible (at least for now).

Nareed, in his anxiousness, has chosen to misinterpret my supporting remarks. I didn't say "there are no anatomical changes"; I said that internal anatomy can't be modified. If there's a way to install a uterus, ovaries, Fallopian tubes, etc. in a man, AND MAKE THEM FUNCTIONAL, I'd love to know about it. I realize that some so-called "sex change operations" involve installing an artifical vagina in the space vacated after a man's penis and testicles are removed. This, however, is NOT the same as an actual female vagina.

Any changes to the body's chemistry are medication-induced and therefore temporary. The endocrine system can be poisoned/disabled by massive doses of hormones/medication, but that doesn't change a man's endocrine system to that of a woman--it changes it to a malfunctioning, crippled male endocrine system.

I do indeed have a close realtive (my niece) who has suffered greatly from the fiction that a sex change operation is possible, but that isn't the source of what Nareed calls my "hostility"--I'm not in the least hostile to him, except in how I regard his hyper-put-upon attitude (which has nothing to do with his actual or fictive sex). I am not, as one poster speculated, judging the viability of sex change operations based on my niece's experiences. I have done quite a bit of research about such operations, though, as a consequence of her ordeal, and my conclusions are based on that.

There's no doubt in my mind that the fiction of a "sex change operation" can and does make many people much happier. But given that gender roles, not "sex" as such, are what we exhibit to the world, I strongly suspect that changing one's wardrobe, putting on makeup, etc. would be just as effective in accomplishing a "sex change" as submitting to the scalpel, and certainly less expensive, dangerous, and painful.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
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February 15th, 2011 at 4:56:12 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

There's a difference between "gender identity" and "biological sex".

I do find mkl using the terms "he/she/it" rather rude, as the "it" quite clearly shows a disregard for someone's gender identity and outward appearance, and dismisses such difference between biology and identity in one easy phrase.

You can't change someone's chromosomes from XX to XY (or vice versa). That doesn't mean that someone can't switch (or actually be a different) gender (identity) on any one of a number different ways, from clothing, speech, personality, affectations, biological outward apperance or inward biology. How far down that route each person wants to go is up to them. I only really know people who have transgendered outwardly. As a cisgender, and one whose not studied the area, I don't pretend to understand much more than that.

The difference between gender identity and biology is also one that's similar to the difference between ethnicity and ethnic appearance. Or at least from the Body Recovery and Identification world...



I agree that my use of he/she/it was rude, but I was responding to some severe and utterly unjustified rudeness. But you're right.

I am at last provided with a clue to your rather puzzling ongoing hostility to me, which is that you are in the LBGT camp and view me as one of the "enemy". Rest assured that is not the case. I pity people who feel they were born in the wrong body, but I think that it's a pathology that should be addressed with psychiatry rather than (futile) surgery. I do understand the placebo effect of such surgery, in that it enables the patient to more easily pretend that they are of the opposite sex. Still, I don't think that the proper therapy for a person who wishes he was a cat would be to surgically install whiskers, pointy ears, and a tail.

I do commend you for realizing that what CAN be changed (and rather easily, compared to major surgery and drastic hormone therapy) is gender roles. Maybe these poor people should just stick to that--when you think about it, that really should be enough.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Nareed
Nareed
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February 15th, 2011 at 5:20:43 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I said that internal anatomy can't be modified. If there's a way to install a uterus, ovaries, Fallopian tubes, etc. in a man, AND MAKE THEM FUNCTIONAL, I'd love to know about it.



My aunt had a radicla hysterectomy 20 years ago as treatement for ovarian cancer. Do I need to inform her she's no longer a woman?

Quote:

I realize that some so-called "sex change operations" involve installing an artifical vagina in the space vacated after a man's penis and testicles are removed. This, however, is NOT the same as an actual female vagina.



The penis is not removed, it's re-shaped. It's not the same? Well, not entirely the same, but gynecologists have been fooled by good plastic surgeons. A man having sex with a TS can't tell the difference.

So are you done showing us how much you do not know, or do you need to make a spectacle of your ignorance a while longer?

As to your hostility, does it strike you as friendly to offer highly offensive opinions about subjects you know nothing about? In case you ahven't figured it out, calling people delusional based on your kind of faulty undertsanding of a subject is offensive.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
thecesspit
thecesspit
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February 15th, 2011 at 8:28:29 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321



I am at last provided with a clue to your rather puzzling ongoing hostility to me, which is that you are in the LBGT camp and view me as one of the "enemy". Rest assured that is not the case. I pity people who feel they were born in the wrong body, but I think that it's a pathology that should be addressed with psychiatry rather than (futile) surgery. I do understand the placebo effect of such surgery, in that it enables the patient to more easily pretend that they are of the opposite sex. Still, I don't think that the proper therapy for a person who wishes he was a cat would be to surgically install whiskers, pointy ears, and a tail.



Cisgender doesn't mean what you think it does, Mr Teacher. Next time I need to be psycho-analysed, I'll be sure to ask you first.

And that, gentle reader, is why I think MLK's comments are often examples asshattery.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Nareed
Nareed
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February 15th, 2011 at 9:23:53 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

And that, gentle reader, is why I think MLK's comments are often examples asshattery.



Oh, but he knows everything and he's always right. If you don't believe me, just ask him :P
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

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