Unpublished rules in the Riviera's Cash Frenzy promotion

The Riviera is going to give away $72,055 this weekend. They will give it out in a drawing, with entires based on slot play. Before going further, I'll give you a chance to read the rule card yourself. Click on either image for a larger version.




I was informed before the promotion started that for play from Nov 10-12 there would be "5x points." This information I shared with a friend of mine. On Sunday I went to the Riviera. Before I played, I wanted to confirm the 5x point rule, because that is pretty generous, assuming it applied to both the value of the points normally as well as the drawing. However, I was told that is was a "misprint" by a host there.

I then texed this information to my friend. Despite this information, he decided to play anyway. A lot. I played only a little, enough to earn the 1,000 point bonus for 5,000 earned points.

On Tuesday I went back to play some more. Based on this play I did hit a royal, which I posted in the jackpot pictures thread. Even without the royal I would have still won a little. This play was done under the assumption that nobody was getting 5x special treatment, so I was competing on a level playing field.

Then today I was told that the 5x rule applied to drawing entries only, and not toward the normal player reward program at the Riviera. This made me angry, since 80% of my play was after the 5x period.

Some may say that I shouldn't complain because I won on Tuesday, but I've always said that it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, but whether you had a good bet in the first place. In fact, I had a lousy bet, because my friend already stuffed the drum with 5x entires on Sunday. I wouldn't have played had I known I was at such a disadvantage.

So, the point of this post is that when creating a promotion, be very clear about the rules. In this case, if players can earn 5x entires for certain dates, then say so. This promotion is still running, with frequent announcements over the loudspeaker. However anybody playing now, except those who had the inside information, wouldn't know that they are already up against a very stuffed drum from the 5x players who were fortunate to know about that unpublished rule.

I've sent several strongly-worded Emails to the Riviera about this. They say they might self-report themselves to Gaming. I certainly hope they do so. Stay tuned for more details, as this story is still unfolding.

They had some unique games like video Miss Stud and video Pai Gow so I used to play there a decent amount. I eventually had my own trouble with them not keeping their word. The way they ran that free $1000 promo was pretty ridiculous too.

I don't really trust them to keep their word about anything and their complete lack of organization and experience is obvious in almost everything that they do. I see no longterm value for that property in this city other than keeping 1000 or so people employed (which is obviously a big deal to those people).

Quote: Pokeraddict

I don't really trust them to keep their word about anything and their complete lack of organization and experience is obvious in almost everything that they do.

That can also work to the player's favor. For example the promotion earlier this year where they refunded 100% of slot losses up to $1,000. It was almost too good to be true, but as I expected they quickly modified the rules, reducing its value. My point being that a badly-designed promotion can cut both ways. In this case my friend who played last weeked cornered the market on the drum. Just watch -- I predict he will win the big prize, and lots of the smaller ones.

The thing to be learned from this is the Riv is a good property to keep an eye on in terms of promotions, even if they have a tendency to not disclose and change their own rules.

Quote: Wizard

...They say they might self-report themselves to Gaming. I certainly hope they do so.

What are the odds that they do?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

What are the odds that they do?

It isn't often I say this, but that is hard to estimate. I've never even heard of it happening before. Paco really took me to task when I estimated the probability of a presidential assassination, saying I didn't have enough information to even hazard a guess. So now I'm more shy making predictions when there isn't a lot to go on.

If they did/do self report, would that be public information?

They must feel like there's a real risk of punishment. Enough so that they'll tell an angry patron that they'll self-report in order to keep him from going to the trouble of reporting them himself. Of course, whether or not they actually do self-report is another matter. But there's no downside to you, other than time spent, if you also report them. You know, just in case they "forget" to do it themselves...

Quote: Doc

If they did/do self report, would that be public information?

I doubt it. There is a good chance the Riv will decline to answer my question, so we may never know.

Quote: rdw4potus

They must feel like there's a real risk of punishment.

Gaming is really big on honesty. When I went to get my Ties Win Blackjack game approved they were conducting a lot of other business too. Many people there got denied a license to be in the gaming business for lying on their application about something, often the question "have you ever been arrested?" When they asked for forgiveness, the Board really came down on the applicant not for being arrested but for lying about it. That said, they probably do expect casinos to self-report if they do something wrong. There is already a rule that they are supposed to report any patron dispute of $500 or more.

Quote:

But there's no downside to you, other than time spent, if you also report them. You know, just in case they "forget" to do it themselves...

Well, before this incident I would like to think I was friendly with them. Hopefullly I still will be after this. After I filed a dispute, which some thought was frivilous, with Gaming before, I don't want to have a reputation as too much of a complainer. So I'm not going to file an offical dispute.

Given this error, plus the CF (look it up) regarding the Riviera's cash back promo last Spring, it seems like a good idea to bring your lawyer along to parley with the casino before you begin to play (no smiley here, I'm serious).

I've found the M Resort to be quite honest and humorous as well. They usually post their special offers in Three Sections marked The Large Print, The Medium Print and The Fine Print. They try to make things clear and explicit and even the fine print is large enough to be read without too much difficulty.

Now as to this ballot box stuffing... we all know that those "swipe your card" for the automobile drawing means that the retirement home people show up to swipe their cards and the bus driver stands there swiping the cards of all the people from the home that couldn't make it that day. Day in and Day out those "patrons" get an electronic entry into the great big drum from which the winner will be drawn. Here, if there is any day, time or combination of purchases that can get extra entries, it should be disclosed, even if it is just buy a Pastrami Sandwich and get ten extra entries.

The average player won't know how many entry slips are supposedly in that great big wire drum but he will know that he is ONE of the entries and the local retirement home types and the sharpies have a zillion entries.

It all comes down to fair disclosure. Clearly written. Large type. No confusion. It shouldn't be difficult for a casino to do that and if they really do self report an infraction, it may well cost them alot to have left something to fine print. It doesn't have to be sensible, it just has to be CLEARLY REVEALED. They never say you must eat that Pastrami Sandwich, just that you have to buy it in order to get the extra entries.

Quote: Wizard

That can also work to the player's favor. For example the promotion earlier this year where they refunded 100% of slot losses up to $1,000. It was almost too good to be true, but as I expected they quickly modified the rules, reducing its value. My point being that a badly-designed promotion can cut both ways. In this case my friend who played last weeked cornered the market on the drum. Just watch -- I predict he will win the big prize, and lots of the smaller ones.

I want to see what you think of my strategy for something like that, Wiz.

Obviously, if there were Progressives such that the ER was 100%+ we would do that, otherwise:

I would be inclined to go with my wife and have both of us get player's club cards. I want to say the goal is to come out ahead $1,000 (or better) or minimize losses. In this event, I would play first at a $100/denomination machine and take a shot. If I got up to +$1,000, then we would just revert to playing regularly and get the Free Play on anything my wife lost (if) she lost while reverting to a $100 loss limit on a smaller Denomination machine and playing with her card only.

If I lost $1,000, then she would take a shot and either win $2,000 at $100/denom or lose $1,000. If she won $2,000, then I would take my $1,000 FP and probably take some more shots at $100/denom and just play 10 Pulls, Win or Lose, then revert to regular play with $100 loss limits each.

If we both lost, and again, there were no 100%+ ER Progressives, then we would each take our $1,000 FP and go to either a single-line $0.25 or $0.50 machine with a perfectly graduated payout structure and take 2,000/4,000 pulls each, whatever the case. Obviously, we would check the Progressives every $100 (played each) or so to determine whether or not any of those were advantageous. If not, then the expectation (assuming 90% ER, and it's probably better) is to win $900 each off of the Free Play thus losing the original intended $100/each.

What do you think?

Quote: Wizard

...Gaming is really big on honesty..

I recall that they fined the Venetian $1 million when a host rigged a drawing for a car.

Changing the conditions once the contest is in motion to favor some players over others, is clearly wrong. If everyone were disadvantaged, or the contest had to end early, I could understand. At least it affects everyone the same. However, providing incorrect information, then not making any attempt to make you whole, is bad form.

Rule #15 on the handout is pretty powerful:

Quote: rule #15

Riviera Hotel and Casino reserves the right to cancel and/or modify this promotion at any time without proper notification

Update: The Riv tells me they are invoking rule 15, quoted by Aye above, and are not quintupling play last weekend.

This, I think, is the right thing to do. However my friend who cornered the market on entries on Sunday will not be happy. However, in my opinion, he doesn't a legitimate gripe, since he didn't even know about the 5x rule at the time he played. Hopefully he won't be angry at me for raising a stink about it.

Quote: Wizard

Update: The Riv tells me they are invoking rule 15, quoted by Aye above, and are not quintupling play last weekend.

This, I think, is the right thing to do. However my friend who cornered the market on entries on Sunday will not be happy. However, in my opinion, he doesn't a legitimate gripe, since he didn't even know about the 5x rule at the time he played. Hopefully he won't be angry at me for raising a stink about it.

My issue with this is how do we know if they do this or not?

My thought on these types of contests is that the total number of tickets/entries should have to be revealed if a patron asks. With the old system and physical tickets at least you could see them all in the drum. I was in one of these once at the Venetian where I thought I had a relatively large percentage of the virtual tickets and wasn't selected for any of the 50 prizes drawn. I am very suspect of these types of drawings. Most casinos will tell you how many tickets you have but not the total number in the pool.

I didnt know about the Venetian fine, but if you have a player that means that much to you and your casino to rig a drawing to get him a car, why not just buy him a car? Casinos have done this and much more for whales before. here is an old link to a post about it.

http://www.peepsplace.com/showthread.php?t=13610

Quote: Boz

I didnt know about the Venetian fine, but if you have a player that means that much to you and your casino to rig a drawing to get him a car, why not just buy him a car? Casinos have done this and much more for whales before. here is an old link to a post about it.

http://www.peepsplace.com/showthread.php?t=13610

I recall that the player was a whale from China who lost $5 million. His host, who rigged the drawing, "didn't want him to feel bad". I guess there is a difference between, "You lost 5 million, but you actually are lucky... You won a car!" and, "You are a loser. In fact, you lost so much we can give you a car as a comp".

I wonder how the whale felt after it was revealed that he couldn't even win a rigged drawing.

Quote: Wizard

However my friend who cornered the market on entries on Sunday will not be happy. However, in my opinion, he doesn't a legitimate gripe, since he didn't even know about the 5x rule at the time he played.

However, beginning two consecutive sentences with "however" is bad grammar. However, in this case, perhaps, maybe, possibly, it could be justified :P