craps pit boss

I had a interesting encounter with a Paris pit boss at the at the craps tables. I was setting for the seven and rolling more than a random amount I felt and so must he as he started telling me to hit the backwall and I already was hitting the backwall. My dice were landing between the pass line and the backwall every time and were making their way to the backwall. I had another good roll and then switched to a less crowded table with another shooter from our table. I again threw a seven and then an eleven on my come out roll and he started with the backwall thing again and was getting nasty. He and the stickman said " we know what your doing" as if I was cheating or something. I then pointed out to them that there was a guy at the table who had not hit the backwall yet and nothing was said. I also pointed out that although I was having success at the pass line I was actually down for the session from betting on myself and other rollers. They were nasty and unfriendly. This was a $10 table with no real money on it and it is gambling and that the house will lose few bets. I picked up my chips and left. I probably will never shoot dice at the Paris again even though I stay there. I played at the Bellagio and Planet Hollywood the same way with no incident. I think what pissed him off was the way I bet. I place an $10 pass line bet, if it won I stacked it so now I am making a $20 pass line bet if it won ( which it did) I stacked it. So now I am making a $40 pass line bet and if it hits (it did on one roll) I made $70 with only $10 of my own money at risk. We all know the player has more ways to win on the come out than any other bet on the table so it should not of been that big of deal to see some one roll a few in a row. I then dropped back down to $15 and start over. I would also place the 6 and 8 after the shooter rolled a couple point numbers as there were a lot point seven outs at the table. Maybe he was having a bad night but I could see him turning red and getting pissed and I like the Paris so I left on my own.

Some Pit Bosses need to go back to basic customer service. What may happen is they don't get the concept of "house edge." I've had arguments with dealers who insist 3rd base play in BJ can affect the table. Surely they believe stuff about craps. An unknown but positive number of these dealers move up the food chain.

Quote: MrRalph

I was setting for the seven

apparently just setting the dice was enough to set him off.

The Paris casino is known .... for its “attitude” toward dice setters.
Pit bosses, and crews have made it plain and simple, DON’T PLAY HERE.

Quote: AZDuffman

Some Pit Bosses need to go back to basic customer service. What may happen is they don't get the concept of "house edge." I've had arguments with dealers who insist 3rd base play in BJ can affect the table. Surely they believe stuff about craps. An unknown but positive number of these dealers move up the food chain.

I saw an interview with Ed Thorpe in an old issue of Sports Illustrated from the 1960s. When he talked about being backroomed and slipped mickeys by the casinos, SI wanted to know why the pit staff would care so much about one counter when the house edge was so overwhelmingly in their favour over the long run. Thorpe said something to the effect of, "these guys can't even see the long run; they only care what happens tonight." That was like half a century ago. Nice to know times have changed ....

Most places are reasonable. There are still some dicks in this business, as there is in every business.

Maybe they should teach some math to those guys(pit bosses). As long as the game doesn't come to a screeching halt because of 'dice setting' don't worry about it and don't address it. Hit the back wall randomizers and that's it.

Quote: MrRalph

I was setting for the seven.

So how long was it taking you to do this? From what you described they either noticed your results or your actions and it seems it was the setting that ticked the pit boss off.

when I see more than one dice setter at the table I leave, becasue its gonna be like watchin paint dry waiting for those clowns to shoot!

Quote: vert1276

when I see more than one dice setter at the table I leave, becasue its gonna be like watchin paint dry waiting for those clowns to shoot!

Really? Most setters do it in 5 seconds. I'm more annoyed by the guys that roll the dice in front of them a bunch of times before the "real" roll.

I honestly can do it fast. It is really easy to set for the sevens you put a 4 & 3 on top and a 2 & 5 facing you and you got it. There were shooters there that were taking longer than me. The fact that I could hit the seven and eleven as much as I did even surprised me. I think what pissed him off was that my dice were getting to the backwall (just not as hard as he would of liked) and I was still getting the seven. The next day I played at a table where a guy threw 3 hard 10's in a row that pit boss did not freak out cause in the end it all works out in the wash. What slows the game down are guys who set the dice a certain way and can't find the correlating faces and flip them and roll them, then shake them then whip them down the table any which way. I also do not like a game that gets held up, that and late bettors tick me off the most so I make sure I never impede the speed of the game. I do not claim to possess enough skill to influence the dice but it sure was fun to set for that seven and see it come up with the eleven as much as it did. I figure the hell with that guy there are plenty of places to play, now if I could only get those box numbers to show up like that.

Quote: FleaStiff

So how long was it taking you to do this? From what you described they either noticed your results or your actions and it seems it was the setting that ticked the pit boss off.

They were commenting about how many sevens and elevens I was throwing between themselves like we were not there or they had a table full of deaf players they never mentioned the speed of play.

Honest answer: fuck 'em and go play some where else

I concur with your honest answer

If I were a pit boss, I wouldn't care if you didn't hit the back wall, even regularly, as long as you crossed the center line. I think most people here would take the same approach. One of the most annoying things is the back wall harping.

Quote: teddys

If I were a pit boss, I wouldn't care if you didn't hit the back wall, even regularly, as long as you crossed the center line.

...unless the shooter was next to the stick. Then a short roll better roll/tumble!

Personally, if I were the boss, my biggest gripes would be:

1 - Dice thrown off the table.
2 - Taking too long to set and shoot.

I might be concerned with short rolls, but only if the shooter is setting and/or taking too long to shoot - and only after the shooter has had the dice for a while.

Try this the next time you play dice. Place $1 bet for the dealers next to your $10 passline bet. If you win and press your passline bet to $20, place another $1 next to your bet. If you win again and press your passline bet to $40, put $2 next to your bet (for the dealers).

I would bet my next paycheck that the dealers and pit boss would not say one word about your dice setting and hitting the back wall (unless your rolls were so short that they did not come anywhere near the back wall).

Quote: cclub79

Really? Most setters do it in 5 seconds. I'm more annoyed by the guys that roll the dice in front of them a bunch of times before the "real" roll.

So true and even 5 seconds is long. If you know what you want to set you shoud be looking at the dice as the stickman sends them to you and mentally deciding how to move them. I'd wager a good dice setter should be able to set them whilst making it look as though they are just picking them up.

On being allowed to do it I go back to my example in dealer class. When it was my turn to shoot I would set them. A few female class members wondered just what I was doing. Being new in class they wanted to know if it was allowed. They couldn't describe to the instructor what it is I was doing and insisted I "show" him. I said I didn't need to show him and said, "they want to know if a player is allowed to set the dice?"

He said, "you are not supposed to" with a tone that the casino didn't like it but tolerated it. So later when I did it again one of the female students on stick said not to do it. The male students either didn't care or knew all about it. One started "lobbing" the dice in a dice-control fashion when he was shooter.

Quote: Fleaswatter

Try this the next time you play dice. Place $1 bet for the dealers next to your $10 passline bet. If you win and press your passline bet to $20, place another $1 next to your bet. If you win again and press your passline bet to $40, put $2 next to your bet (for the dealers).

I would bet my next paycheck that the dealers and pit boss would not say one word about your dice setting and hitting the back wall (unless your rolls were so short that they did not come anywhere near the back wall).

So would I!

The only thing they'd say would be "Dealers on the line, thank you for the bet sir!"

Quote: MrRalph

I probably will never shoot dice at the Paris again even though I stay there. I played at the Bellagio and Planet Hollywood the same way with no incident.

The funny thing to me is that now PH and Paris are owned by Caesars. I know there is a different in management philosophies and how dealers are trained and everything between each property, but the old Harrahs corp. (I'll clarify that in a second) doesn't seem like a sweat the money operation. Of course, in every business, there are managers who take it upon themselves to sweat the money, but in general I didn't see Harrahs ever really being that way, especially at the 10 dollar level.

That being said, Caesars properties could be a bit different. Furthermore, Paris was a Park Place property before it was Caesars before it was Harrahs. The training was different. But that pit boss was way out of line. If you were betting 5000 a roll, only betting on your rolls and making a point of taking a lot of time to get the set right, then maybe he wouldn't be, but I just can't imagine a circumstance where $10 and even $40 would make a difference. A "sweat the money" joint probably wouldn't even be that worried.

Were you paying attention to other bets on the table? Was there anybody who could appear as though they were in collusion with you? Maybe that's where the pit boss was worried, but again, that seems highly unlikely.

From the last Scoblete newsletter:
Skinny took the dice. It might have been a point-seven but I was somewhat too groggy to remember what exactly happened during his roll. Then I got the dice.

The floor person pointed his finger at me. "How are you doing Frank?" Oh, nuts, I thought, here comes the hassling.

"Okay," I said.

"These guys your Golden Touch team?" he asked, nodding at Stickman and Skinny.

"My friends," I said.

"Well, we welcome you to play at Atlantic City’s Harrah’s. Guys, win all the money you can, Harrah’s has plenty of money. Have fun!"

I was stunned; totally, completely, amazingly stunned. Maybe that’s why I point-sevened-out. When Stickman sevened out, another quick one, we all personally said goodbye not just to the dealers but to this floor person as well.

"Come back to Atlantic City’s Harrah’s anytime Frank," he said. You know, I just might do that; seems like a great place to play.

Gotta put the positives out there with the negatives. I have many more good things than bad to say about the Harrah's corporation.

Quote: AZDuffman

If you know what you want to set you shoud be looking at the dice as the stickman sends them to you and mentally deciding how to move them.

Too often, the dice roll while the stickman is moving them. Often, the stickman will deliberately give one or both a little flip when they get to their destination - and not just if they happened to roll to a 7 or the point.

On stick, I never do. Push the dice out as is. It seems the more I want a player to win in my heart, the worse his session is.
I don't buy into any sort of jinx actions, refuse to let the flow of the dice perturb me. The only thing I do is bring out the dice with no natural number showing, as a courtesy to the player. Don't side players LIKE the dealer pushing out a 7, and saying - "Seven-out, pay the don't!" Dark side players like playing alone, or with other don't bettors, because they catch a lot of nasty looks and comments from most "right-side" players. Crap players are too superstitious - along with some boxmen.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Too often, the dice roll while the stickman is moving them. Often, the stickman will deliberately give one or both a little flip when they get to their destination - and not just if they happened to roll to a 7 or the point.

Actually they mentioned early and often to NEVER push the dice out on a 2,3,7, or 12. In an early check-out the floorman let me have it for doing that. I had so much on my mind I didn't notice I did it. The training was partly military "tear you down to build you up" I suppose.

Quote: Fleaswatter

Try this the next time you play dice. Place $1 bet for the dealers next to your $10 passline bet. If you win and press your passline bet to $20, place another $1 next to your bet. If you win again and press your passline bet to $40, put $2 next to your bet (for the dealers).

I would bet my next paycheck that the dealers and pit boss would not say one word about your dice setting and hitting the back wall (unless your rolls were so short that they did not come anywhere near the back wall).

I had the dealers on the line for $1 I also had them on the Placed on the 6 & 8 for a $1 My tosses were good I don't know maybe the guy is truly just an asshole or maybe he was having a bad day.

I must say that I set the dice all the time and never had a problem at Paris. The pit boss was an ass lacking some very basic customer service skills in my opinion. Dice setting's just a ploy anyway. As long as the table's hitting the throws/hour quota, who cares?