Harrah's Comps
I read your review, and you have confirmed what I've found playing Harrah's as well - their table game comps are very stingy. I know that the range for comping is 20-40% of theo, and I believe Harrah's properties use the 20% number more often than not. My experience with Atlantic City seems to be the opposite, of your review - if you hit 4 hrs of rated play, they seem to "increase" the room comps later down the road. However, I was wondering if the pit entered your data wrong - if you use $21 as your average bet with a 20% comp of theo, then the calculation comes out to $7.83, which seems very close to your $7.56. Just food for thought.
-B
-B
For anyone ever at Crown Casino in Melbourne Australia they have what I think (I may be wrong) are very good deals for interstate and international players. A buy in of $5k will get you on a program that returns 0.3% of betting turnover returned in comps. A $10k buyin with turnover less than $100k get 0.4% and over $100k gets 0.5%.
Quote: AussieFor anyone ever at Crown Casino in Melbourne Australia they have what I think (I may be wrong) are very good deals for interstate and international players. A buy in of $5k will get you on a program that returns 0.3% of betting turnover returned in comps. A $10k buyin with turnover less than $100k get 0.4% and over $100k gets 0.5%.
Are you saying the Crown in Melbourne has a "promotional chip" program, where they add 0.3% to 0.5% to your chip purchases? These programs are common in Macau, as I explain at Wizard of Macau. If not, how would they know what the turnover was?
If we take slots which earns 20 rewards credit per $100 bet (0.2%), the theoretical loss on a slot machine is about 7%. That means that for every $100 bet, the customer will lose $7 and receive a credit worth $.20, The casino is reimbursing only .20/7 = 3% of the theoretical loss.
Even at video poker, which earns 0.1%, (10 rewards credits per $1,000 bet), at a 2% game, the casino is reimbursing only 5% of the theoretical loss.
Some idiot in management at Harrah's probably applied the same formula to table games. After all, why should a blackjack player who is betting $10,000/hour (theoretical loss, $100) be treated any differently than a quarter video poker player who is betting ($1.25 x 10 x 60) $900 / hour (theoretical loss, $27 (at 3%, earning $.90) or a nickel slot machine player?
While 0.1% - 0.2% for slot machine/video pokers returns are pretty much the industry norms, to apply the same formula to table games, while fair, does not reflect what the competition is doing.
So you have to ask yourself how Harrah's has been penalized by reducing this compensation to table game players? First off, it offers very low room rates to its low level players and this encourages a very high return rate. Secondly, it takes away the cash rewards offered to the "hit and run" players who play for a few hours.
Gaming Market Advisors published a detailed white paper on the Total Rewards marketing program. Clearly, the aim of Harrah's is to build loyalty and not to give comps on short term play.
Some of the quotes:
Quote:IV. Total Rewards Marketing Strategy
Total Rewards employs an aspirational strategy that is designed to get players to seek higher
tiers. Every element of the customer service delivery process at a Harrah’s property is designed
to show that Platinum, Diamond and 7-Star customers are an elite group and are deserving of
special attention.
Gold customers receive minimal service while at a Harrah’s property. Every queue is designed
to show that Platinum, Diamond and 7-Star customers are valued more. The queue at the
Rewards Center at every property has more windows devoted to Diamond/Platinum/7-Star
members than Gold even though the latter represents over 88% of their members. The same
situation occurs at the Hotel Registration. On Harrah’s riverboats, Platinum/Diamond/7-Star
customers can go to the Rewards Center on the boat while Gold customers must leave the vessel
and use the Rewards Center in the Boarding Pavilion. In Las Vegas, Diamond/7 Star customers
can show their card and jump into the front of the taxi line.
Every restaurant has two queues: one for Platinum/Diamond/7-Star and one for Gold and others.
In fact, the Rio Hotel and Casino recently renovated its Carnival World Buffet and built a
separate dining room for Diamond/Seven-Star members. Premium status members enter through
a separate, more elegant entrance, are seated in a more attractive dining room (discreetly
separated from the main dining room), and receive higher levels of service.
The importance of aspiring to Diamond level status among players is clearly evident within the
online discussion groups that are dedicated to Harrah’s casinos. Customers ask each other about which casinos have the best DIAD program, how long their tier status is good for and what
additional benefits Diamond level and 7-Star players get.
Harrah's marketing strategy is to essentially then make the gamblers attempt to get to the "diamond level" by getting the 4,000 points required.
Quote:In addition to Reward Credits, hosts at each property have discretionary comping authority.
After reviewing commentary from players on online forums it is clearly evident that players
know how to use their hosts to pick up the costs of meals and extra room nights. In other words,
like all casinos, Harrah’s Total Rewards program is vulnerable to abuse by savvy players.
However, Harrah’s hosts go through an extensive training program and, to their credit, know
how to handle “comp shoppers.” Even the most astute comp shopper has trouble abusing the
system.
Harrah's did (still does?) have the "Diamond in a Day" program which can be earned at Vegas by earning 1,800 reward credits in one day. If this is a case, according to the calculation above, a blackjack player would receive 3 point for every $100 played ($100 x 1% x 2%) you would need to bet about $100/hand for 8 hours. At that point, even though you would have amassed about $18 in credits, you would be a Diamond member and would receive heavily discounted hotel offers and front of the line offers, free shows, and Cash, to all Harrah's venues among other things.
Quote:In addition to accruing 10,000 Tier Credits over the course of a calendar year players can achieve Diamond status in a day (“DIAD”). The levels that are needed for DIAD vary from property to property. One can also achieve Platinum status in one day at Harrah’s Laughlin (“PIAD”). Once
Diamond/Platinum status is earned using the DIAD/PIAD method, the player maintains that
status just as if that status was earned in the Calendar Year program.
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I always tell people who get angry watching the Diamond people pass them in line, "Don't worry, they lost more money last year than you probably made this month."
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On the other hand, I find the Diamond in a Day program to be quite a good deal, if you can find a decent video poker machine on which to earn your points. (Admittedly, difficult to do at Harrah's).
I believe the Wizard mentioned obtaining this status at the Harrah's in Laughlin once. Perhaps he would care to comment on his motives for doing this promotion?
Around 2003 I made a trip to Harrah's in Laughlin, and made Diamond Status in about 2 hours playing either $5 or $10 10-7 double bonus, which has a return of 100.17%. So it was an easy way to make Diamond. The reason I did it is I heard that Diamond players received generous offers in the mail. As I recall, the caliber of the offers did improve, but I didn't act on any of them.
Quote: WizardQuote: AussieFor anyone ever at Crown Casino in Melbourne Australia they have what I think (I may be wrong) are very good deals for interstate and international players. A buy in of $5k will get you on a program that returns 0.3% of betting turnover returned in comps. A $10k buyin with turnover less than $100k get 0.4% and over $100k gets 0.5%.
Are you saying the Crown in Melbourne has a "promotional chip" program, where they add 0.3% to 0.5% to your chip purchases? These programs are common in Macau, as I explain at Wizard of Macau. If not, how would they know what the turnover was?
They use promotional chips at Crown for "junket" players I believe. That is, those who get flown in in groups specifically to gamble. I'm not exactly sure how they work though.
The type of comp you get depends on the type of program you are on. For me I'm just on a cash program and use cash chips throughout the casino. I simply get 0.5% of my turnover returned in comps to be used on my hotel room, meals or a refund on my air tickets.
If you buy in for more (probably at least $25k each time) you can go on a CP (commission play) program. These players use special CP chips and will have a percentage of their turnover returned to them in cash.
Turnover is just estimated for the average program player. Estimated average bet multiplied by the games predetermined number of hands per hour etc. I believe the turnover for a CP player is tracked more accurately though. Supervisor will physically record each resolved bet.
Her play was in 2009. Have things changed radically since then?
Wizard, K.M.'s review mentioned that you also played the two hours with her. Did you get the same two nights+$300 offer as a result? If not, maybe the credit for both of your play went on her card?... Just guessing.
Quote: IAchance5So basically, Harrahs gives back a little more to slots players than table games playing with the same bankroll? (i.e. $500 played at slots or $500 played at BJ)
Harrah's will calculate theo on table games, based on your perceived "average bet" x your time spent at the table, and that theo will always be much lower than the calculated theo for a slot. Even a craps player who makes nothing but hardway bets will be playing at less of a disadvantage than a slot player. Even that turista at the 6:5 BJ game who hits hard 16 vs. a 5 and doubles on hard 12 will be worth less to the casino than his wife who is feeding the dollar slots.
So the slots player is a big, juicy steak to Harrah's, while the table games player is Rice Krispies. They'll eat either one, but the slot player is much tastier. That's why they'll give more goodies to the former, to keep him on Harrah's dinner plate that much longer.
Quote: teddysI've noticed Harrah's gives a lot better comps to carny table games players, much more so than Craps and Blackjack (and Pai Gow) players. You can play Spanish 21 with a house edge of 0.40% and get pretty good comps. (Not as good as slot comps, but decent).
Harrah's appears to actively discourage table play. I have avoided Harrah's properties like the plague for many reasons, but I read somewhere on here about some properties bumping players up to Diamond status after making some large bets at the BJ tables. To try this out, I recently went to a Harrah's property and bought in with $5,000, got on a run, and wound up with a net win of $15,500 after about an hour playing blackjack at an average bet of $1K. For this, I earned 1,292 points and 646 tier credits. That's $12.92 in comps, and I'm still nowhere close to being a diamond. In fact, I would have to repeat this exercise 20 times to become a diamond at the rate I was awarded tier credits. As far as comps, after playing $1K/hand for an hour on a BJ game with a 0.43% house edge (the wizard's calculator shows realistic results of 0.57% HE), I literally didn't have enough comps to go to the buffet, much less get a room. No host came to introduce themselves, no comps were offered by the pit, and my request for them to raise the table limit was flatly rejected by the shift boss. After that last bit, I simply got up and left with my winnings.
My guess is that I could have been improperly rated, since the pit critters were nowhere to be found until the very end when the shift boss showed up, and the dealers never called "checks play" or anything of that nature. Every once in a while there was a glance, but for the most part they were running around and not even looking at the game. If this really is their system, then there is no point to ever playing at a Harrah's property. Needless to say, after less than 24 hours as a member, Total Rewards was a Total Failure for me, and I won't ever be returning to a Harrah's/Caesars/Whatever-they-call-themselves-this-week property. At least I beat them out of some money :) .
Edit: This was at Harrah's Reno - I happened to need to be in San Francisco for business, so I went over the hill to Reno for a couple of days.
Quote: thefish2010Needless to say, after less than 24 hours as a member, Total Rewards was a Total Failure for me, and I won't ever be returning to a Harrah's/Caesars/Whatever-they-call-themselves-this-week property. At least I beat them out of some money :) .
With the end of the boxmen and boxwomen, the situation is even screwier. Places like Harrah's Resorts (AC) seem to actively discourage playing craps. And the revision last week of the Total Rewards Web site was amateur, to say the least.
Quote: TiltpoulWhich property were you at? I don't have time to post a full response now, but check back later... I may have some insight on what happened.
I happened to be in Reno for a few days...this was at Harrah's Reno.
Quote: thefish2010I happened to be in Reno for a few days...this was at Harrah's Reno.
Okay. That's one of the few Harrah's properties I know very little about, but I can give you a rundown of TR in a nutshell, though it's already been covered a little bit by another poster.
As was mentioned, TR is more about long-term play than short-term. Their point system and accumulation was kind of revolutionary and made understanding what you earn and how you can spend it a lot simpler. You'll notice most major casinos have adopted similar programs that set what qualifies you to certain tiers... you can thank, or blame, Total Rewards for that.
Total Rewards has casinos in so many states in so many jurisdictions that each casino views games differently. For example, your same BJ play might have got you more points in a Midwest casino, or less in a Vegas casino. Why they do that, I'm not sure. In general, Midwest casinos tend to be a bit more favorable (though not by a lot) than AC, Vegas and some of the destination locations. While accumulation of tier credits is the same, trying to figure out the Bonus RC system is near impossible.
To be honest, your one hour of play should have been recognized more by the pit... but I don't believe it warrants you to an upgrade in your card status. There is a program, called Diamond in a Day, that sets a high tier credit limit (typically 2500 in one gaming day) where you can earn Diamond status immediately. Even this is a bit misleading: You get the status at the casino you are playing at, you get the card which gets you into lines, but you're still, TECHNICALLY, not Diamond... if you try to go to another Diamond lounge in another casino, it may take a while to verify that you are indeed Diamond, because according to the computer, you're still whatever card your tier score is at (Gold, Platinum). You will also not automatically qualify for certain Diamond events like the slot tournaments or anything, though you can go through your home casino to take advantage of those offers.
I'm not sure there's any casino that would bump you up in status as high as Diamond based on one hour of play, even at 1K a hand. Smaller casinos won't take the action, and MGM, Boyd and others require a bit more play. To be honest, if you had given 4 hours of play at that rate, you probably would have been granted DIAD status, as you would have been close to 2500 points. That seems to be the standard for comps.
I'm not saying Total Rewards is a great system. In fact, there are a lot of things I hate about it and they are WAY stingier this year than they have been in the past. But everywhere I travel there is a Caesars property, and Horseshoe's DO write comps still, so if you're in a place that has a Horseshoe try the same ploy. I think you'll get treated a HECK of a lot better there, and they will raise table mins without question.
Quote: Tiltpoul
I'm not sure there's any casino that would bump you up in status as high as Diamond based on one hour of play, even at 1K a hand. Smaller casinos won't take the action, and MGM, Boyd and others require a bit more play. To be honest, if you had given 4 hours of play at that rate, you probably would have been granted DIAD status, as you would have been close to 2500 points. That seems to be the standard for comps.
I'm not saying Total Rewards is a great system. In fact, there are a lot of things I hate about it and they are WAY stingier this year than they have been in the past. But everywhere I travel there is a Caesars property, and Horseshoe's DO write comps still, so if you're in a place that has a Horseshoe try the same ploy. I think you'll get treated a HECK of a lot better there, and they will raise table mins without question.
Well, I was sort of going for the Diamond in a Day thing, which someone on here said you could do if you threw down some big bets at a BJ table. Regardless of any tier crap, the comps should have been MUCH higher than they were. If they're actually giving out $12 per hour in comps to $1K/hand players, it's pointless to play.
Quote: teddysThey don't care about your bet size, they care about how long you stay at the table. Big hit-and-run players are disfavored; in fact, even disliked since you can do some actual damage.
100% correct. CZR (HET) understands the house edge and wants you as a long term player and their system is designed just for that. Their system is best for low rollers who play penny slots as even with a small amount of play, you can get free rooms in Vegas most times of the year. For the table player, you can always find a better game off strip or even by looking around.
How Long will Caesars Entertainment Last?
Quote: zippyboySince we're talking about Harrahs here, I thought I'd link to this thread about their increasing debt and how dangerously close to bankruptcy they are.
How Long will Caesars Entertainment Last?
Very good article, and now it makes sense why they are cutting comps back so much. Unfortunately, it's a no-win situation... cut comps too much, you lose your bread and butter players; don't cut them enough, your operating expenses spiral out of control. Caesars should gain some ground when the casinos in Ohio open up, but they are the managing partner, not the owner. That's good for the books in less debt, but bad when they don't realize the profit potential. Plus, they are branded as Horseshoe, which typically grants more comps than the other Caesars brands.
My guess is they sell off a few under-performing properties with a couple big properties in a fire sale. What group would buy those, I have no clue. But I can't see Caesars filing for bankruptcy, unless it's an absolute last resort. The last thing they need after an IPO is bad publicity.
