Unimpressed by Total Rewards
They wouldn't match my 3/5 tier status from other competing casinos. I don't get that AT ALL. It makes no sense. I understand not giving seven stars away, but platinum and diamond? Please. Those benefits are worth almost nothing anyway... attract customers with a matching policy and set a point goal within the first month if they want to keep it or something. No matching just raises the barrier for entry.
I played blackjack for 5 hours. My average bet booked was likely 25 dollars, which is a bit conservative because I played mostly 25 with a good quantity of 50's that I know the floor logged. I mixed in some $10 hands when the floor wasn't looking, so I am counting those. I was doing a very mild amount of counting and spreading just a bit to try to narrow the edge a little. The floor logged my play on a computer terminal, and I am quite sure I was rated at $25 and $50 for most of the time I was there. The game moved briskly most of the time.
That gives me about 500 hands of $25. The realistic house edge on the rules they have is 0.67%. So my expected losses were about $87 if you don't consider the counting. My actual results were up several hundred.
How many tier credits did I earn from blackjack? 36. I asked for an adult drink comp (soda is free, beer/alcohol costs) in the first hour and was denied. I asked for a buffet comp at the end of the session and was denied.
I tried out video craps and video roulette. Total amount wagered (excluding odds)- $125. Tier credits earned: 2.
Total tier credits earned in 5 hours? 38. Did I get ANY comps at all? Yes. When I was complaining about the miserable comp rate to another player at the craps machine a 7 stars player overheard me and gave me a buffet coupon. Yay. He suggested I play slots if I wanted comps. Sounds like the norm.
Yeah, my local tribal casino has better game rules for blackjack and comps about 10x better than the rate I am getting from total rewards. I guess this is a small sample and it could have been logged incorrectly or something, but it was insultingly stingy. I can get a meal for 4 and show tickets for 2 for that much play at my regular place... I think they calculate comps as some percentage of the house hold, which is idiotic but who am I to stop them?
Whichever it is, that's pretty lousy -- 3.6¢ or 36¢ for $12,500 worth of "coin-in" on blackjack.
Quote: JBWith TR, is it 100 or 1000 points that equals $1 (when spent at their overpriced shops and restaurants)?
Whichever it is, that's pretty lousy -- 3.6¢ or 36¢ for $12,500 worth of "coin-in" on blackjack.
I think it is 100 for $1. 36 points is just BAD. I will recheck my status online to make sure I am not missing something like a system update. But I am sure I am right because it is the only TR credits I've ever earned (vegas always finds me at crap properties or MGM).
But either this Harrah's is the stingiest bastards ever or they didn't log something right. Mind you, I think they did log it right because the floor was attentive and I know adjusted my rate when I moved my bets up.
Quote: onenickelmiracleTable games ratings are always inaccurate due to either low estimates or counting losing bets as no play. These are their profits when they own the market.
Yeah, I get the inaccuracy, but they are using a computer tracking system. The system just wants them to log the player's bet size and when the player gets there and leaves. The low rewards here are a byproduct of the cheap programming, and probably not inaccuracy by the supervisor. Unless she just lied to the machine about my bets.
Also, they don't own the market. They are last place of 4, soon to be 5, brands have 6 total major locations.
"arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable."
Does this refer to the casino's attempts to maintain customer loyalty or to the customer's act of selling his loyalty to a particular casino in return for his individually tailored "thirty pieces of silver"?Quote: AlanMendelson"arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable."
Having said that. There is no question that for table games players(which I am) their system of points accumulation is sketchy at best. Alan's description of arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable is spot on. Numerous times I have gotten very little rewards credits/tier score; for what was moderately heavy action. Other times I get what seems to me to be maybe more than I should have received. It seems to all come down to the person using the computer. I always try to chat them up when possible, and will always ask.."what do you have me in for, in terms of average bet". Too often the answer is the table min, or very near the minimum. If I'm playing at a green chip table (usually I am)...there is obviously no way my average bet is $25 or $30. I think they just log you in at that amount and often don't bother to change it. Since I'm spreading say 1-8 units....my average is probably in the $75-100 range. I try to point this out...nicely. Mostly, to their credit, they are friendly about it and maybe they bump my average bet some. Sometimes they don't seem interested in my opinion and/or they don't really want to have this conversation.
To sum up it all seems random to me...but it's really just a factor of average bet x # of hours played. I just seems like they lowball (or are too lazy), to pay much attention to average bet. One item in their defense though...at least in AC...the declining #'s have led to some staff shortages in the pit area. So maybe they are just covering too many games to get it right.
Quote: Gabes22If you are gonna be staying in NW Indiana, bring your bulletproof vest
Oh yeah?...I have family/friends in KY and Iowa..visiting both, and thought I'd stop in between at the NW Indiana location. Keep in mind I'm used to Atl. City...not the most gentle of neighborhoods. Is that part of IN really that bad?
Quote: bbvk05So after reading threads here and elsewhere I decided to try out the lesser Caesar's property near me. Harrah's Ak-Chin near Phoenix. Typically I go to one of the local tribe's own casinos (there are 4 options near Phoenix), but I was interested in total rewards and wanted to see if they comp better than the locals.
Personally, the only reason I could ever fathom to visit the Ak-Chin (I also live in Phoenix), was that reward points earned there, as stingy as they are, could be used at other Harrah's properties. Thus, whatever points I earned would go toward free hotel rooms in Vegas. However, considering the extra distance to get to Ak-Chin, I'm not sure it is truly justified.
Quote: bbvk05So after reading threads here and elsewhere I decided to try out the lesser Caesar's property near me. Harrah's Ak-Chin near Phoenix. Typically I go to one of the local tribe's own casinos (there are 4 options near Phoenix), but I was interested in total rewards and wanted to see if they comp better than the locals.
They wouldn't match my 3/5 tier status from other competing casinos. I don't get that AT ALL. It makes no sense. I understand not giving seven stars away, but platinum and diamond? Please. Those benefits are worth almost nothing anyway... attract customers with a matching policy and set a point goal within the first month if they want to keep it or something. No matching just raises the barrier for entry.
I played blackjack for 5 hours. My average bet booked was likely 25 dollars, which is a bit conservative because I played mostly 25 with a good quantity of 50's that I know the floor logged. I mixed in some $10 hands when the floor wasn't looking, so I am counting those. I was doing a very mild amount of counting and spreading just a bit to try to narrow the edge a little. The floor logged my play on a computer terminal, and I am quite sure I was rated at $25 and $50 for most of the time I was there. The game moved briskly most of the time.
That gives me about 500 hands of $25. The realistic house edge on the rules they have is 0.67%. So my expected losses were about $87 if you don't consider the counting. My actual results were up several hundred.
How many tier credits did I earn from blackjack? 36. I asked for an adult drink comp (soda is free, beer/alcohol costs) in the first hour and was denied. I asked for a buffet comp at the end of the session and was denied.
I tried out video craps and video roulette. Total amount wagered (excluding odds)- $125. Tier credits earned: 2.
Total tier credits earned in 5 hours? 38. Did I get ANY comps at all? Yes. When I was complaining about the miserable comp rate to another player at the craps machine a 7 stars player overheard me and gave me a buffet coupon. Yay. He suggested I play slots if I wanted comps. Sounds like the norm.
Yeah, my local tribal casino has better game rules for blackjack and comps about 10x better than the rate I am getting from total rewards. I guess this is a small sample and it could have been logged incorrectly or something, but it was insultingly stingy. I can get a meal for 4 and show tickets for 2 for that much play at my regular place... I think they calculate comps as some percentage of the house hold, which is idiotic but who am I to stop them?
I cordially invite you to visit me at Bucky's in Prescott. You would have earned about $17.00 in comps for food/drink and I'll even give you a free night at the resort for that length/average of play. :)
ZCore13
Quote: Gabes22The whole NW Indiana area which are Chicago suburbs have been ravaged since the steel industry left in the 1970s. As long as you remain around the hotel you should okay but I wouldn't venture to far out into town and definitely don't go anywhere near Gary.
What hotel? Horseshoe Hammond doesn't have a hotel. If he is going to stay at a Harrah's property, he needs to go to Joliet. Staying at a NW Indiana hotel would be a big mistake, imo.
And as others have hinted at, Total Rewards usually screws over table game players. Much better off playing slots/video poker to gain tier credits.
Quote: bbvk05Yeah, I get the inaccuracy, but they are using a computer tracking system. The system just wants them to log the player's bet size and when the player gets there and leaves. The low rewards here are a byproduct of the cheap programming, and probably not inaccuracy by the supervisor. Unless she just lied to the machine about my bets.
Also, they don't own the market. They are last place of 4, soon to be 5, brands have 6 total major locations.
Point about having the market is there are not too many players in the gambling industry and together they set the tone for comps. Coincidentally they all choose to do basically the same thing. I wasn't saying the supervisor was inaccurate and agree the system is obviously flawed in their favor. One thing people don't grasp is busted bets are not counted. Someone once recommended to replace your bet as soon as they take it.
Quote: konceptumPersonally, the only reason I could ever fathom to visit the Ak-Chin (I also live in Phoenix), was that reward points earned there, as stingy as they are, could be used at other Harrah's properties. Thus, whatever points I earned would go toward free hotel rooms in Vegas. However, considering the extra distance to get to Ak-Chin, I'm not sure it is truly justified.
I was thinking the same thing about vegas compatibility. But there's no way I am going back. In terms of value it is not even worth an extra mile of driving at a 50 cents cost/mile that the IRS uses, especially considering that most of my gambling is at lower stakes and shorter in duration. I am more of a 10-25 guy at local places, not a 25-50 guy.
And I get treated very well at Gila, and decent at Casino AZ. Casino AZ doesn't comp me nearly as much in pure dollar figures, but it is CASH and not crappy food or things I don't want.
Quote: onenickelmiraclePoint about having the market is there are not too many players in the gambling industry and together they set the tone for comps. Coincidentally they all choose to do basically the same thing. I wasn't saying the supervisor was inaccurate and agree the system is obviously flawed in their favor. One thing people don't grasp is busted bets are not counted. Someone once recommended to replace your bet as soon as they take it.
I do replace my bets immediately, primarily because the dealer will occasionally just slop the whole table with chips if they bust... including a spot without a hand.
I don't understand what you mean by busted bets are not counted. I am pretty sure the computer system just multiplies average bet x expected hands per hour. Are you saying it is tracking every individual bet after the outcome of the hand is decided? I have only ever been to one casino that had RFID readers under the felt, and this certainly isn't one of them.
BTW you can scam the crap out of the RFID tables, but they are not common.
Quote: Zcore13I cordially invite you to visit me at Bucky's in Prescott. You would have earned about $17.00 in comps for food/drink and I'll even give you a free night at the resort for that length/average of play. :)
ZCore13
You are management?
I played at Bucky's once years ago when I took my grandmother there. The dealers were nice and nobody bothered to card the 17 year old playing blackjack. To be fair I had a full-growth beard at the time, so I didn't look that young. :-)
I stayed at a hotel in Lansing, Illinois, once while I played in NW Indiana. That was a nice little suburban town, and convenient to the casinos.Quote: Gabes22Thanks. I haven't been down to NW Indiana in a while, at least not on purpose. If I were gonna play there, I would stay down in the loop and it is about a 20 minute drive down the Dan Ryan and Chicago Skyway.
Quote: bbvk05You are management?
I played at Bucky's once years ago when I took my grandmother there. The dealers were nice and nobody bothered to card the 17 year old playing blackjack. To be fair I had a full-growth beard at the time, so I didn't look that young. :-)
Yes and c'mon back. I can't speak for the years ago, but I'll personally card you if you want when you return... Might make you seem younger and impress the ladies too! :)
ZCore13
Anyway, I live in the San Diego area, and there are several tribal casinos nearby. Harrah's Rincon is one of them.
We've talked about this several times on our podcast. We go out of our way to play at Rincon, even though it's twice as far away as most of the other casinos. Their comps are way better (as opposed to the Phoenix area, where bbvk05 has found the opposite to be true):
- Every month they send a mailer with free-play that can be redeemed on certain days/weeks.
- You get a free buffet (or $20 food voucher) for earning 50 Tier Credits in a day (nothing is deducted from your reward Credits). You can do this every day.
- Your credits can be used at any Caesars property in the country
Having said that, I realize Rincon may be the exception to the Caesars rule.
Quote: FleaStiffDoes this refer to the casino's attempts to maintain customer loyalty or to the customer's act of selling his loyalty to a particular casino in return for his individually tailored "thirty pieces of silver"?
My comment "arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable" refers to the fact that the company has never revealed its formula for awarding comps or points, and because awards vary with the attention of a floor person or pit boss the awards may not be accurate. Bettor beware.
Quote: GHThe automation of comp credits is simply for the benefit of fitting as many square pegs into round holes as possible. Real comp whores use casino hosts, and a bit of social engineering in the pits.
Yeah, but you have to earn enough credits to GET a casino host in the first place. That is not going to happen with TR for me.
That's for sure! I always start out with a bet for the dealers to get the floor's attention and also start out early with some high betting since that is what the floor person will then notice as he is processing my card and saying hello. Its all bluff, assumptions, non-verified values culminating in some complex calculation that seems to clearly favor slot players anyway. However, comps are at all times "sweeteners" rather than substantial items, so "loyalty" is never all that highly valued.Quote: AlanMendelsonMy comment "arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable" refers to the fact that the company has never revealed its formula for awarding comps or points, and because awards vary with the attention of a floor person or pit boss the awards may not be accurate. Bettor beware.
Meanwhile, that same player who's hammering a 98.01% Bonus the $.50 VP machine at $2.50 shot for four hours at 10 hands/minute. For his four hours of play, he also puts in $6,000 of coin in and gets a whopping 600 rewards credits, worth $6 (0.1%). But his theoretical loss is $119.40 on the best $.50 game in most CZR casinos. So he gets back 5% of his theoretical loss. This formula is chintzy with other casino slot programs who may give back 0.2 - 0.5% of slot play.
So, what CZR has done is put their table comps in line with their slots. If your theoretical loss is $40, why would they reward a table games player with 20-30% of theoretical losses for table games but only offer slot players 5%? That's why when you play $6,000 at blackjack, you only see 200 - 300 rewards point. It sucks.
What CZR does do however is have some pretty good free room offers. Once you start playing (even for a short while), free room offers will start pouring in. And if you go 2 or 3 times a month and playing green chip action or $.50 VP for 4 hours per sesssion, first off you'd qualify for platinum pretty quickly (8 visits) and the room offers will just fly at you.
ZCore13
Quote: BeardgoatThe comps from total rewards suck as far as being able to buy food or whatever with the points. The true value is that I can almost always gets free room at harrahs, ballys, rio, the quad, and sometimes flamingo. Sunday-thursday is always free and if you are patient enough you can get weekends too. The value in 2 nights free at a prime location on the strip is worth a lot more than what I actually lose when I gamble.
Quote: boymimboWhat CZR does do however is have some pretty good free room offers. Once you start playing (even for a short while), free room offers will start pouring in. And if you go 2 or 3 times a month and playing green chip action or $.50 VP for 4 hours per sesssion, first off you'd qualify for platinum pretty quickly (8 visits) and the room offers will just fly at you.
Quote: vendman1Here is my 2 cents on TR....I primarily play in AC, and they have 4 hotels there, so the CZR's properties work for me. I do travel occasionally and I like that I can use my TR points at other properties. I've stayed free in Vegas 3 times based on my AC play. Later this year I may be visiting some family in the mid-west and I plan to stay at a property in Indiana. So in that sense I like their system. It allows for a lot of options/locations as to how to use your rewards. For me that's the most important thing.
This is the only good thing about TR. I was going to put something glib here about how "I haven't paid for a room in Vegas for 2 years," but after scraping through my email, it looks like I paid for a room at the Flamingo as recently as December 2011. But every trip since then (trip #4 coming up in May) has been totally comped at either Flamingo, Bally's, or (for upcoming trip) Paris. Mostly weekends.
I'm a sometimes-green, sometimes-red player at craps mostly, so YMMV. But I've never gotten so much as a free Thursday night offer at the fuckin' Excalibur from MLife, and over the time span, I probably gave them more action (for some reason I love the craps pit at the Bellagio). Between the "big 2," TR is way ahead of MLife.
Everything else (food/free play/cashback/etc.) sucks, but I'll probably continue to give them just enough action to keep getting free rooms at the low-roller joints. Note that I have no idea what that "just enough" amount is...I'll probably play it by ear going forward.
Quote: onenickelmiracleIf you're busted and bet is taken away, the floor person records 0 for your bet since they only count what they see.
Quote: Zcore13I have never heard of any place factoring in "busted bets". VERY unlikely. Comps use your average bet, win or lose.
ZCore13
Zcore is right, this is a patently absurd thing to assert. So you're saying that the floor person is watching you like a hawk, adjusting your total handle based on individual hands? Forgetting that this isn't how it works at all (they enter your average bet [possibly adjusted a few times per session] and then just track time at the table), even if this were true, they would clearly see you put out your bet before the hand starts! Unless in your fantasy world, the floor person keeps track of every bet from every gambler, but somehow makes this calculation only at the resolution of the hand for everyone.
Quote: onenickelmiracleIf you're busted and bet is taken away, the floor person records 0 for your bet since they only count what they see.
Yeah, I don't think that is a big problem at the places I play.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThis is the only good thing about TR. I was going to put something glib here about how "I haven't paid for a room in Vegas for 2 years," but after scraping through my email, it looks like I paid for a room at the Flamingo as recently as December 2011. But every trip since then (trip #4 coming up in May) has been totally comped at either Flamingo, Bally's, or (for upcoming trip) Paris. Mostly weekends.
Yeah, I agree. Room discounts/comps in Vegas are the biggest value of TR, imo. They will knock off room rates much quicker than anything else.
What was your original buy-in at the blackjack table when you sat down?
Quote: AcesAndEightsZcore is right, this is a patently absurd thing to assert. So you're saying that the floor person is watching you like a hawk, adjusting your total handle based on individual hands? Forgetting that this isn't how it works at all (they enter your average bet [possibly adjusted a few times per session] and then just track time at the table), even if this were true, they would clearly see you put out your bet before the hand starts! Unless in your fantasy world, the floor person keeps track of every bet from every gambler, but somehow makes this calculation only at the resolution of the hand for everyone.
Lucky I could find it in my bookmarks and it wasn't one of the ones which disappear on me.
http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/WeeklyArticles/94.shtml
Looks like you assumed and you know what you made of both of us, but I think you made a mistake about me.
Quote: onenickelmiracleLucky I could find it in my bookmarks and it wasn't one of the ones which disappear on me.
http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/WeeklyArticles/94.shtml
Looks like you assumed and you know what you made of both of us, but I think you made a mistake about me.
Quote: Scoblete via linkIf the rater came by during play, and noticed my cards tucked under one bet but saw no bet in the other circle and recorded that, it would account for why $30 (or $50) would appear as my betting unit.
Quote: onenickelmiracleOne thing people don't grasp is busted bets are not counted. Someone once recommended to replace your bet as soon as they take it.
Our good friend Frank was relating one experience that happened to him. You were extrapolating that to a blanket statement for all comp systems everywhere.
At the vast majority of the places I've played, the pit boss isn't making enough rounds to catch me in that state that often. What if I've been sitting there for 3 hours playing just one hand the whole time, and then he happens to walk by after I've just busted? What's he going to do, think to himself "huh, this guy must just have been sitting there for a few hours not playing, no comps for him..."
If this happens at all, it's a very rare occurrence.
ZCore13
I have have taken advantage of free midweek rooms and discounted room for the few weekend days. I think that the reason you people are not getting comps is because you don't have enough points. I can take my TR card to any TR Casino and get a free meal without gambling. Walk into the gift shop and get a decent hoodie free.
While I have a free suite for November, none of the casinos are comping me free rooms today. I went over my win loss statement for 2012 and I won a total of 5 bucks. That is because I only when to Joliet to earn 1 point to keep the 57,175 RC I had. I'm hoping that the two trips I will make this year will get me some free rooms for next year. If not, I have some myVegas comps I can use, and I can usually get a decent hotel and air for under 350 anyway at a Vegas travel site. I do like the 571.00 in free food/gift/entertainment comps that I have and have redeemed.
You should log into your TR account and check out your win/loss statement and your TR eStatement. Don't forget you get free offers online.
Current Tier GOLD
Tier Score: 222
Your Offers: 10
RC Balance: 28,004
My 10 offers is really 70 offers. 7 at 10 different casinos.
There's a report I read that says TR is the very best from what they offer and give out to their skill at player retention and the long list of whales.
I searched my browsing history and can't find what audit of player club report. I searched the web and can only find opinions not based on research. It's a pdf file that compares all the Vegas Player's Clubs. Player development programs. It was the real deal.
Quote: bbvk05I played blackjack for 5 hours. My average bet booked was likely 25 dollars,...
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How many tier credits did I earn from blackjack? 36.
Did you check your TC balance within a few days after your play? I've found that sometimes TCs earned from table play at CET take a day or two to show up in the system, but they will be credited for the actual play day in regards to getting bonus TCs.
Otherwise, you were rated poorly. Blackjack at CET typically earns around 1.5 TCs per hour per dollar average bet. So $25 betting should have earned you roughly 37 TCs per hour. But you say that is all you earned for a total of 5 hours. If you were jumping around its possible the play from 1 hour at a certain table got put into the system first before your other play did and that is all you saw.
In any case, you won't earn much in the way of TCs or RCs for table play at low house edge games with CET. I play blackchip BJ and the TCs I earn from it are almost immaterial to what I earn from VP play even though I probably spend more actual time playing BJ. Nonetheless, the overall comps are still roughly equal to other casinos when you have a host. And the only time a host at CET walked up to was when I was playing blackjack in the high limit room, never when I played VP in the high limit room. Go figure.
