Discussion about the Suspension List

Kewj, I could be wrong, but I thought you were one of the ones who commented on why people got so riled up in the political threads when they should just ignore each other. Or maybe it wasn't those exact words, but something like that.

So, just go back to ignoring each other or don't make a big deal about whatever it is.

I'm more along the lines of kill or be killed, than I should ignore someone, so I can understand the position, but I'm just bringing up a comment I thought you made about conflicts here.

Maybe you didn't or I remember it wrong though.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Ahh just let it go guys. Not worth it.

Of course it's worth it. Kewlj is one of
the few people whose posts I actually
seek out and read. Losing his input
would be a real blow to this forum.
He's an actual working gambler who
shares a lot of what he does here, and
he does it in an intelligent way. Why
would we want to lose that over some
misunderstanding.

I hope Wizard agrees that KJ has been a more worthwhile and contributing member here than has QFIT (Norm). I know this forum has benefited quite a bit from KJ's posts. I'm not so sure about Norm's contributions to the forum, though.

Norm allows the members on his site to bash KJ with trolling posts. But Norm wants to be treated specially here, where not a bad thing can be said about him.

Quote: rxwine

Kewj, I could be wrong, but I thought you were one of the ones who commented on why people got so riled up in the political threads when they should just ignore each other. Or maybe it wasn't those exact words, but something like that.

So, just go back to ignoring each other or don't make a big deal about whatever it is.

I'm more along the lines of kill or be killed, than I should ignore someone, so I can understand the position, but I'm just bringing up a comment I thought you made about conflicts here.

Maybe you didn't or I remember it wrong though.

This isn't politics, or sports or something light and fun. This is blackjack and blackjack is my life. It's how I support myself and I take it seriously. One of the things that I am serious and passionate about is sharing my own experiences, both good and bad and attempting to help and advise newer players just as some experienced successful guys did for me, not that long ago.

AS such, I believe I have a right to opinions about things. When the topics come up, I am damn well going to tell newbies to stay away from anything they read about Martingale. I also am going to advice that they avoid John Patrick and certain other authors. I'll bet no one will argue those two points.

And it's no different with other resource, like websites. If there is a website where some of the dominate membership has opinions and ideas that are just not generally accepted throughout the blackjack community and are minority opinions among serious, knowledgeable and professional players, I have a right to my opinion that such a website is detrimental to newer players. I am sorry if the owner of that website doesn't like it, just the same as I am sorry if John Patrick or some Martingale enthusiast doesn't like it. I have a right to that opinion and I have a right to express that opinion.

THAT is what this is about. My right as a professional player, with some success, expressing my opinion on certain resource available to newer players. VS an outside source, not even really associated with this site, attempting to get wizard to not allow me to express my opinion.

I rarely toot my own horn like this, but Mike himself described me as an "outstanding member who brings a wealth of blackjack knowledge and experience to the forum". The word 'opinions' belongs right there with knowledge and experience. It's part of the same package. So why would he want to limit me from sharing that knowledge, experience and OPINIONS with forum members and especially the newer BJ members, just because some outside source doesn't like and agree with my opinions??

Quote: EvenBob

Of course it's worth it. Kewlj is one of
the few people whose posts I actually
seek out and read. Losing his input
would be a real blow to this forum.
He's an actual working gambler who
shares a lot of what he does here, and
he does it in an intelligent way. Why
would we want to lose that over some
misunderstanding.

That's why I said what I said. It's not worth leaving over. Ignore the other board.

Ok so now we need to find the me member thst is 6 years in with a bif gap in participation.

Ok go

Quote: GWAE

Ok so now we need to find the me member thst is 6 years in with a bif gap in participation.

Ok go

I thought it was QFIT. He's been here 6 years and has 25 posts(plus I thought it was in a post).

Minimum Blackjack Game SCORE Desired
Thread starter: BW21 December 31st, 2015 at 9:54 am
Betting System that works.
Thread starter: DeMango March 21st, 2010 at 5:54 am

I don't know what happened on the other board and I don't really care--ownership there can ban whoever they want. What I do see is that QFIT came in here and brought up some issues from other boards here. He could have just stayed away, as he did for years.

Anyway, we could lose one of our better members over some guy with 25 posts who came in here in attack mode when he returned after about 6 years. Wish he would have just stayed away...

Quote: RonC

I thought it was QFIT. He's been here 6 years and has 25 posts.


Minimum Blackjack Game SCORE Desired
Thread starter: BW21 December 31st, 2015 at 9:54 am
Betting System that works.
Thread starter: DeMango March 21st, 2010 at 5:54 am

Check out the BJ weather Center thread
QFIT responded by quitting here for 10 years
Yup
Not a few days, a week, a month or year
QFIT dropped the 10 year bomb on the forum lol
yup, look for him here in 10 years ROFL

Quote: QFIT

That's it. I'll no longer post here. I'll look back in another ten years.

"No good deed goes unpunished."

- Clare Boothe Luce

First he left for six years.

Now he is leaving for ten.

He cares a lot about this forum.

Kj is one person on here that actually post good info and not just dribble- I hope he stays

Again, I thank everyone for there support. I fear we are heading down a bad path here. One that Mike will view as mutinous (<- is that a word)....and surely I will be blamed. It isn't my intention to create havoc, create a witch hunt, nor put Mike or any of the other mods in a tough spot. I wanted to state my side of things. I've now done so (for as long as it stays up).

It is really Mike's call. Experience has shown him to not be too big on re-considerations. There was really only one case that I can recall and that involved someone with breasts, which I think softens him up and I don't have. :)

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Kj is one person on here that actually post good info and not just dribble- I hope he stays

I stayed out of this since I read it early this AM, watched as other longer members lined up and voiced their opinions. I can wait no longer. I had my post written early this AM and hit the cancel button.

But It said, Damnation, I'm pissed now. Cus words, lots of them, several lines full. I cannot believe that two people that I admire so much can be so stubborn as to result in this impasse. I love KewlJ's contribution, both posts and Blog entries, and BJ is the only game I dabble in. And most of the world involved in gambling discussion and math has tremendous respect for Mike/The Wiz.

At the moment I'm tempted to call them both mules, just tempted, I will not actually. You have to admire anyone who stands up for their principles, you don't have to agree with their principles.

I guess now I'm just disappointed, not in any one person in particular, just in the way life unfolds sometimes.
Just 2F

I am a relatively active member, and a friend of Mike's. I was also involved in a 'truce' violation, and got the same suspension as KEWLJ. So for the past few years, since my suspension, I just steer clear of that member. If that member says "Trump is God", or something like that, I can respond and disagree. I just don't mention the original poster. It is really no big deal.
In my opinion kewlj is THE most valuable poster here. Most importantly, he is a real AP, and eloquently shares his stories and ideas and techniques as a valuable resource to any newbie. His political thoughts are also very interesting. And his soup kitchen work puts him on a level I could only hope to reach.
Given the above, I would hope he would just do what I did.... just ignore the poster who he has a Shackelford imposed truce with. I believe he will kewlj will be able to get his points across without the need to mention any particular poster.
Kewlj.... if you leave because of that single poster... I think you are doing yourself a disservice, and it will be a disservice for all those who enjoy your posts here. Please stay.

Quote: RS

I hope Wizard agrees that KJ has been a more worthwhile and contributing member here than has QFIT (Norm). I know this forum has benefited quite a bit from KJ's posts. I'm not so sure about Norm's contributions to the forum, though.

Norm allows the members on his site to bash KJ with trolling posts. But Norm wants to be treated specially here, where not a bad thing can be said about him.

Exactly correct. Norm shows up here and behaves like a child. I have lost all respect for him.

First 1BB is banned, and now KJ. Hey Wizard- are you freaking kidding me?!?!?!?!

How'd you get into a situation where you made an agreement you don't like?

I suppose this won't be fully explained -- but just thought I'd ask.

Punishment is the authoritative imposition of something negative or unpleasant on a person or animal in response to behavior deemed wrong by an individual or group. The authority may be either a group or a single person, and punishment may be carried out formally under a system of law or informally in other kinds of social settings such as within a forum.

Don't let the trolls win.

A. I hope KJ stays simply because he is a respected member who I have learned a lot from. He has no reason to share what he does, yet he still does it.

B. You know this will just keep Larry busy for days.

Ffs I really wish this crap would stop as someone who's had to listen to it on at least three sites and I've made a couple of regrettable comments weighing in on it. Wizard or other management apparently brokered an agreement where two valuable contributors could contribute without a needless feud, the both of them obviously have different perceptions of how it unfolded. If Anyone is unable or unwilling to keep their word on terms they agreed to, well, no need to point out the obvious.

No disagreements on the positive opinions of KJ here, I respect him and appreciate his opinions a lot. By sheer quantity of posts difficult to argue that he's contributed a lot to this site.

QFIT seems to be getting an unfair perception from many here who appreciate KEwlj, haven't seen this pointless pissing match unfold on multiple other
Forums, and aren't aware of QFIT's unparalleled accomplishments in the blackjack community.

For those unaware, QFIT has developed software that is mandatory and indispensable for serious blackjack card counters, and can be helpful for other blackjack advantage plays. He's also written a great book that is IMO one of the three most important books for blackjack advantage play, possibly the most complete. Volume I of the book has(at least had) been made available free of charge as an online resource, without advertising.

Quote: kewlj

There was really only one case that I can recall and that involved someone with breasts, which I think softens him up and I don't have. :)

Not yet anyways (☺) (☺).

But seriously that's kind of a low blow to bring that up.
Especially after all the nice things Mike said about you.
You add a smiley face but I don't think you meant it 100% jokingly as I did above.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Are you indicating you were more or less pushed into making an agreement or given some type of ultimatum?

I'm just curious why you negotiated a truce in the first place? Who's Idea was that?

Low blow ? Hoes no one have a sense of humor ? I seriously doubt that Mike or most people reading that did not smile. I know I did.
Gee. this is a forum, not a church bulletin.

Quote: RonC

Anyway, we could lose one of our better members over some guy with 25 posts who came in here in attack mode when he returned after about 6 years. Wish he would have just stayed away...

The part that you're missing is that QFIT is Norm Wattenberger, who created the CVBJ/CVData/CVCX blackjack software and is a known and well-respected member of the greater blackjack community, although you are correct he has almost never participated on this board.

Quote: rxwine

How'd you get into a situation where you made an agreement you don't like?

I suppose this won't be fully explained -- but just thought I'd ask.

I think KJ made it pretty clear what happened. He agreed to a truce wherein he wouldn't mention Norm or Norm's sites (namely blackjacktheforum.com). At some point things apparently went so far off the rails over there that KJ rightly feels he should warn beginning card counters and aspiring APs to steer clear, or at least not take everything seriously over there. He feels that he would be abdicating his responsibility as a respected blackjack expert on this board if he remained silent.

Hence, he initially agreed to the truce, but on principle can't abide by it now. While the Wiz is enforcing the "letter of the law" (truce) regardless of Norm's contributions, or lack thereof, to this site.

I can see both sides. I'm curious what kind of shenanigans are going on at the other forum; I briefly made an account there but have not really read too much. There is a members-only section as well that is inexpensive ($3.00/month) that I have never subscribed to.

First, I must apologize for the length of this post. But, I am responding to six months of attacks.

Secondly, I want to thank mcallister3200 for his defense. Actually, both volumes of my book are free, and ad-free. The second version is 680 pages. Only reason it’s not free is soon after I put the first edition on the web – it was stolen and someone else claimed he wrote and copyrighted it. I wasn’t going to go through all the work needed to put the second version up just to have it stolen.:) But, the first version, 540 pages, remains free. And, none of my sites contain casino ads.

I’ve been watching the soap opera unfold on this page over the last day with interest as the human condition has always fascinated me. A bit ironic to see so many obvious personal attacks on a page devoted to discussions of suspensions for, among other fouls, personal attacks. The last couple of pages remind me of recent political rallies. The politician says something outrageous, like the IRS is only auditing me because of my religion, and the audience blindly roars in agreement, believing every thought is golden that is carried by their master’s voice. During this time, I did not respond to any of these slights, despite the large number of wildly incorrect statements, as, primarily, I despise such discussions and, secondarily, I agreed not to. Unfortunately, the other party to the agreement did not hold to the bargain (as I predicted). Actually, he has stated he would stop this several times over months, only to restart it each time.

I never wanted to start a forum. I know the pitfalls as I moderated one of the very first forums, in ARPANet days, long before the Web existed. (Yeah, I’m old.) I was dragged into it when Ken, wisely, shut down his site after having to deal with the same foul behavior. It appeared that the vacuum would be filled with a hate site. My goal is a site where AP can be discussed with reasonably polite conversation. Yes, disagreement. Without disagreement, what is the point of a forum? But disagreement can be civil. There are some here that may think everything in the Blackjack world has been settled – that there is one way to play. That will never be true. It cannot ever be true. When the, dance, the tête–à–tête, with the casinos ends, AP will end. AP must continually evolve. Marilyn Manson wrote “Anybody who does not evolve can become a self-parody.” We must investigate and discuss better methodologies. And yes, many of those paths will not bear fruit. But then, the low-hanging fruit has already been picked. Reminds me a bit of the Picasso, El Greco, and Goya bullfighting oils – perhaps a bit disturbingly.

My last posts here were for the Blackjack Weather Center. Took a lot of work. No ads. No links to my sites. No income. The only link is to BJ21, which most people think is a competitor of mine. I have no competitors as I don’t think of other sites in that manner. I support BJ21 and have been trying to help them stay afloat. I have charged them zero for this work and hope it gains them new clients. Unfortunately, that thread, informing folks of a free resource, now ends with a personal attack. Reminds me of the time I created a free site filled with blackjack calculators. I posted an announcement on BJ21. The response was that it was spam and should be deleted. I responded, how can it be spam? It’s free. The response was that perhaps I should make part of it free, then there would be no complaint. I responded, it’s free, as in completely free, as in no cost. The response was a crude three-letter word that starts with f denoting someone’s sexual orientation. A decade later, the site remains free.

I do not advertise BJTF here. BJTF certainly allows novice players – but it is not the focus. I have no need to bring in new traffic as I have no casino ads. I have nothing against such. Just not my style. BJTF is a non-profit site. Why would I need clicks?

For those that do not know the history, there have existed some past wars in the blackjack community. I won’t go into any details at all as I have worked very hard over the last decade to smooth them out. The main site that spent years attacking people like Schlesinger and myself, now links to my site. That war is over. Anyone that knows me knows that I despise such wars. Casinos love it when players are at each other’s throats. Why would we want to aid the casinos? It was with that in mind that I tried to stop the budding of a new war, pushed by one person that has a singular concept of how AP works, and can’t seem to accept the fact that other people have other opinions.

I will not go into the details of the incredible lies that have been told. Claims that the posters are pushing voodoo is silly. Claims of fraud. Claims all good posters have left. Two BJ Hall of Fame posters posted this weekend. Including the archives, contributions from eight BJHoF members can be found on the site. The third highest rated post on the site is by a BJHoF member that explains in detail why the troublemaker making attacks here is wrong. I ignored the attacks here for five months. I only responded when they became so extreme as to claim that multiple members of BJTF were purposely misleading people for profit. This is an outrageous lie. The strangest claim, made here, is that I am purposely allowing bad posts at BJTF to convince people they need to buy my software to sim systems. Only, the majority of such posts are about DHM-like systems, which my software does not support. So, I am helping convince people to switch to systems that I don’t support. Brilliant sales strategy. But, no one has ever accused me of being a good salesman. I don’t believe I have ever made a post to convince anyone to purchase my software in the quarter century that I have offered it. Frankly, the person that made these claims is over his head on a real AP site. He was chased off three AP sites as he simply cannot win arguments against those that have more knowledge and more experience than he. That is, in no way, to say that he is not a valuable contributor. He is – or, at least was, in describing his experiences in his particular style of play in his particular arena and circumstances. But, he doesn’t seem to understand that there are so many methods of AP, and more to be developed. That there are so many differences in skill sets, goals, opportunities, resources, etc. One size does not fit all. Over the last six months, he has become more and more extreme in his claims. BJTF is littered with his personal attacks and accusations of some secret agenda, despite the claim here that I did not allow this.

I don’t know the point of months of attacks on multiple sites. I don’t know why he spins simple disagreements into plots to take money from innocents. Transforming disagreements into some sort of morality play. I only know that it harms us all. While such nonsensical discourse rages, forums become as dysfunctional as the current U.S. political system, where discussion of ideas and plans has been replaced by barbs about sweating and spray tans. I guess that’s what people here want. It is not what the members of BJTF and BJ21 want; and they have made that crystal clear.

Look, people are different. That doesn’t mean they are evil. That doesn’t mean they have a conspiratorial agenda. That doesn’t mean they are scamming people. It means they have different opinions, experiences, goals, lives in general. Why would one have to go to forums on four sites shouting accusations against those with whom one disagrees? If you can’t deal with other opinions – just don’t talk to the people that hold them. In addition to the ignore member feature on my forum, I added ignore thread and ignore sub-forum options for this person – which he refused to use. He claims that he must warn people because no one ever responds to posts he doesn’t like. This, again, is utter nonsense. The discussion has been vibrant and many-sided.

In summary, I want what I have always wanted. Comity. Let the casinos battle each other. APs should not battle each other. Forums should not battle each other. I don’t believe there is a single post on BJTF against this forum, despite what has transpired here over the last six months. What’s the point? And, I have not included a link or full name to BJTF in any post here as I am not advertising it. I don’t want heavy volume. I just want a place to talk about AP without this blasted drama. I have stopped the nonsense on BJTF. BJ21 members have squelched it on their site. It will, no doubt, continue here and on the anti-Semitic site, where he has recently taken it, for many months to come as you folks endulge in a food fight. As for me, I’m going back to what I enjoy. Work on providing resources to the community. First update to the Blackjack Weather Center is scheduled for this week, Bill Zender just sent me a batch of old table condition stats I might be able to use to add charts of conditions over time, and today I’m working on a convenient method of searching CBJN from your phone. Free, of course.

This may be the first time I've weighed in on a suspension, self-suspension, truce agreement or anything of the like. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Like most, if not all here, I think KJ's contributions are HUGE on this forum. He's been consistent poster who has provided very valuable BJ information for all to consume. I also think that giving him the benefit of the doubt should be considered. Some my disagree, but valuable individuals receive some level of favorable treatment in their profession (ex. an elite NBA player, a MVP pitcher, etc.). That's not to say that Norm's contributions to BJ also aren't valuable, his software is one of the absolute must have's for all serious blackjack players. But his contributions to THIS site are not as much as KJ's, and I think this must be considered.

KJ has even praised Norm's work, even if they have a simmering dispute about other matters.

Now, none of us knows the specifics of the truce, so I have to believe that Mike made what he felt is a fair decision based on that information.

I hope KJ continues to post here, and can let this blow over. I understand the reaction to defend oneself, it's a natural thing to do, but KJ really doesn't need to, his work here speaks for itself.

Edit: To be fair, I'd also like to see Norm post on topics on this site

Quote: QFIT

First, I must apologize for the length of this post. But, I am responding to six months of attacks.

Secondly, I want to thank mcallister3200 for his defense. Actually, both volumes of my book are free, and ad-free. The second version is 680 pages. Only reason it’s not free is soon after I put the first edition on the web – it was stolen and someone else claimed he wrote and copyrighted it. I wasn’t going to go through all the work needed to put the second version up just to have it stolen.:) But, the first version, 540 pages, remains free. And, none of my sites contain casino ads.

I’ve been watching the soap opera unfold on this page over the last day with interest as the human condition has always fascinated me. A bit ironic to see so many obvious personal attacks on a page devoted to discussions of suspensions for, among other fouls, personal attacks. The last couple of pages remind me of recent political rallies. The politician says something outrageous, like the IRS is only auditing me because of my religion, and the audience blindly roars in agreement, believing every thought is golden that is carried by their master’s voice. During this time, I did not respond to any of these slights, despite the large number of wildly incorrect statements, as, primarily, I despise such discussions and, secondarily, I agreed not to. Unfortunately, the other party to the agreement did not hold to the bargain (as I predicted). Actually, he has stated he would stop this several times over months, only to restart it each time.

I never wanted to start a forum. I know the pitfalls as I moderated one of the very first forums, in ARPANet days, long before the Web existed. (Yeah, I’m old.) I was dragged into it when Ken, wisely, shut down his site after having to deal with the same foul behavior. It appeared that the vacuum would be filled with a hate site. My goal is a site where AP can be discussed with reasonably polite conversation. Yes, disagreement. Without disagreement, what is the point of a forum? But disagreement can be civil. There are some here that may think everything in the Blackjack world has been settled – that there is one way to play. That will never be true. It cannot ever be true. When the, dance, the tête–à–tête, with the casinos ends, AP will end. AP must continually evolve. Marilyn Manson wrote “Anybody who does not evolve can become a self-parody.” We must investigate and discuss better methodologies. And yes, many of those paths will not bear fruit. But then, the low-hanging fruit has already been picked. Reminds me a bit of the Picasso, El Greco, and Goya bullfighting oils – perhaps a bit disturbingly.

My last posts here were for the Blackjack Weather Center. Took a lot of work. No ads. No links to my sites. No income. The only link is to BJ21, which most people think is a competitor of mine. I have no competitors as I don’t think of other sites in that manner. I support BJ21 and have been trying to help them stay afloat. I have charged them zero for this work and hope it gains them new clients. Unfortunately, that thread, informing folks of a free resource, now ends with a personal attack. Reminds me of the time I created a free site filled with blackjack calculators. I posted an announcement on BJ21. The response was that it was spam and should be deleted. I responded, how can it be spam? It’s free. The response was that perhaps I should make part of it free, then there would be no complaint. I responded, it’s free, as in completely free, as in no cost. The response was a crude three-letter word that starts with f denoting someone’s sexual orientation. A decade later, the site remains free.

I do not advertise BJTF here. BJTF certainly allows novice players – but it is not the focus. I have no need to bring in new traffic as I have no casino ads. I have nothing against such. Just not my style. BJTF is a non-profit site. Why would I need clicks?

For those that do not know the history, there have existed some past wars in the blackjack community. I won’t go into any details at all as I have worked very hard over the last decade to smooth them out. The main site that spent years attacking people like Schlesinger and myself, now links to my site. That war is over. Anyone that knows me knows that I despise such wars. Casinos love it when players are at each other’s throats. Why would we want to aid the casinos? It was with that in mind that I tried to stop the budding of a new war, pushed by one person that has a singular concept of how AP works, and can’t seem to accept the fact that other people have other opinions.

I will not go into the details of the incredible lies that have been told. Claims that the posters are pushing voodoo is silly. Claims of fraud. Claims all good posters have left. Two BJ Hall of Fame posters posted this weekend. Including the archives, contributions from eight BJHoF members can be found on the site. The third highest rated post on the site is by a BJHoF member that explains in detail why the troublemaker making attacks here is wrong. I ignored the attacks here for five months. I only responded when they became so extreme as to claim that multiple members of BJTF were purposely misleading people for profit. This is an outrageous lie. The strangest claim, made here, is that I am purposely allowing bad posts at BJTF to convince people they need to buy my software to sim systems. Only, the majority of such posts are about DHM-like systems, which my software does not support. So, I am helping convince people to switch to systems that I don’t support. Brilliant sales strategy. But, no one has ever accused me of being a good salesman. I don’t believe I have ever made a post to convince anyone to purchase my software in the quarter century that I have offered it. Frankly, the person that made these claims is over his head on a real AP site. He was chased off three AP sites as he simply cannot win arguments against those that have more knowledge and more experience than he. That is, in no way, to say that he is not a valuable contributor. He is – or, at least was, in describing his experiences in his particular style of play in his particular arena and circumstances. But, he doesn’t seem to understand that there are so many methods of AP, and more to be developed. That there are so many differences in skill sets, goals, opportunities, resources, etc. One size does not fit all. Over the last six months, he has become more and more extreme in his claims. BJTF is littered with his personal attacks and accusations of some secret agenda, despite the claim here that I did not allow this.

I don’t know the point of months of attacks on multiple sites. I don’t know why he spins simple disagreements into plots to take money from innocents. Transforming disagreements into some sort of morality play. I only know that it harms us all. While such nonsensical discourse rages, forums become as dysfunctional as the current U.S. political system, where discussion of ideas and plans has been replaced by barbs about sweating and spray tans. I guess that’s what people here want. It is not what the members of BJTF and BJ21 want; and they have made that crystal clear.

Look, people are different. That doesn’t mean they are evil. That doesn’t mean they have a conspiratorial agenda. That doesn’t mean they are scamming people. It means they have different opinions, experiences, goals, lives in general. Why would one have to go to forums on four sites shouting accusations against those with whom one disagrees? If you can’t deal with other opinions – just don’t talk to the people that hold them. In addition to the ignore member feature on my forum, I added ignore thread and ignore sub-forum options for this person – which he refused to use. He claims that he must warn people because no one ever responds to posts he doesn’t like. This, again, is utter nonsense. The discussion has been vibrant and many-sided.

In summary, I want what I have always wanted. Comity. Let the casinos battle each other. APs should not battle each other. Forums should not battle each other. I don’t believe there is a single post on BJTF against this forum, despite what has transpired here over the last six months. What’s the point? And, I have not included a link or full name to BJTF in any post here as I am not advertising it. I don’t want heavy volume. I just want a place to talk about AP without this blasted drama. I have stopped the nonsense on BJTF. BJ21 members have squelched it on their site. It will, no doubt, continue here and on the anti-Semitic site, where he has recently taken it, for many months to come as you folks endulge in a food fight. As for me, I’m going back to what I enjoy. Work on providing resources to the community. First update to the Blackjack Weather Center is scheduled for this week, Bill Zender just sent me a batch of old table condition stats I might be able to use to add charts of conditions over time, and today I’m working on a convenient method of searching CBJN from your phone. Free, of course.

Wow! What a post! I actually read the whole darn thing. I hope no one is so silly as to dismiss the tremendous contributions of Norm to the world, particularly in the blackjack community. But, big BUT, I thought I saw digs/pokes imbedded in the post that were not necessary, digs/pokes that actually deminished the great points he was trying to make. Pride is a dangerous asset.
Maybe was just me, just 2F

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Maybe was just me, just 2F

It wasn't just you. I felt the same way after reading it.

Quote: AcesAndEights

The part that you're missing is that QFIT is Norm Wattenberger, who created the CVBJ/CVData/CVCX blackjack software and is a known and well-respected member of the greater blackjack community, although you are correct he has almost never participated on this board.

I didn't miss it at all, thanks. I know he is.

Quote: QFIT

First, I must apologize for the length of this post. But, I am responding to six months of attacks.

Secondly, I want to thank mcallister3200 for his defense. Actually, both volumes of my book are free, and ad-free. The second version is 680 pages. Only reason it’s not free is soon after I put the first edition on the web – it was stolen and someone else claimed he wrote and copyrighted it. I wasn’t going to go through all the work needed to put the second version up just to have it stolen.:) But, the first version, 540 pages, remains free. And, none of my sites contain casino ads.

I’ve been watching the soap opera unfold on this page over the last day with interest as the human condition has always fascinated me. A bit ironic to see so many obvious personal attacks on a page devoted to discussions of suspensions for, among other fouls, personal attacks. The last couple of pages remind me of recent political rallies. The politician says something outrageous, like the IRS is only auditing me because of my religion, and the audience blindly roars in agreement, believing every thought is golden that is carried by their master’s voice. During this time, I did not respond to any of these slights, despite the large number of wildly incorrect statements, as, primarily, I despise such discussions and, secondarily, I agreed not to. Unfortunately, the other party to the agreement did not hold to the bargain (as I predicted). Actually, he has stated he would stop this several times over months, only to restart it each time.

I never wanted to start a forum. I know the pitfalls as I moderated one of the very first forums, in ARPANet days, long before the Web existed. (Yeah, I’m old.) I was dragged into it when Ken, wisely, shut down his site after having to deal with the same foul behavior. It appeared that the vacuum would be filled with a hate site. My goal is a site where AP can be discussed with reasonably polite conversation. Yes, disagreement. Without disagreement, what is the point of a forum? But disagreement can be civil. There are some here that may think everything in the Blackjack world has been settled – that there is one way to play. That will never be true. It cannot ever be true. When the, dance, the tête–à–tête, with the casinos ends, AP will end. AP must continually evolve. Marilyn Manson wrote “Anybody who does not evolve can become a self-parody.” We must investigate and discuss better methodologies. And yes, many of those paths will not bear fruit. But then, the low-hanging fruit has already been picked. Reminds me a bit of the Picasso, El Greco, and Goya bullfighting oils – perhaps a bit disturbingly.

My last posts here were for the Blackjack Weather Center. Took a lot of work. No ads. No links to my sites. No income. The only link is to BJ21, which most people think is a competitor of mine. I have no competitors as I don’t think of other sites in that manner. I support BJ21 and have been trying to help them stay afloat. I have charged them zero for this work and hope it gains them new clients. Unfortunately, that thread, informing folks of a free resource, now ends with a personal attack. Reminds me of the time I created a free site filled with blackjack calculators. I posted an announcement on BJ21. The response was that it was spam and should be deleted. I responded, how can it be spam? It’s free. The response was that perhaps I should make part of it free, then there would be no complaint. I responded, it’s free, as in completely free, as in no cost. The response was a crude three-letter word that starts with f denoting someone’s sexual orientation. A decade later, the site remains free.

I do not advertise BJTF here. BJTF certainly allows novice players – but it is not the focus. I have no need to bring in new traffic as I have no casino ads. I have nothing against such. Just not my style. BJTF is a non-profit site. Why would I need clicks?

For those that do not know the history, there have existed some past wars in the blackjack community. I won’t go into any details at all as I have worked very hard over the last decade to smooth them out. The main site that spent years attacking people like Schlesinger and myself, now links to my site. That war is over. Anyone that knows me knows that I despise such wars. Casinos love it when players are at each other’s throats. Why would we want to aid the casinos? It was with that in mind that I tried to stop the budding of a new war, pushed by one person that has a singular concept of how AP works, and can’t seem to accept the fact that other people have other opinions.

I will not go into the details of the incredible lies that have been told. Claims that the posters are pushing voodoo is silly. Claims of fraud. Claims all good posters have left. Two BJ Hall of Fame posters posted this weekend. Including the archives, contributions from eight BJHoF members can be found on the site. The third highest rated post on the site is by a BJHoF member that explains in detail why the troublemaker making attacks here is wrong. I ignored the attacks here for five months. I only responded when they became so extreme as to claim that multiple members of BJTF were purposely misleading people for profit. This is an outrageous lie. The strangest claim, made here, is that I am purposely allowing bad posts at BJTF to convince people they need to buy my software to sim systems. Only, the majority of such posts are about DHM-like systems, which my software does not support. So, I am helping convince people to switch to systems that I don’t support. Brilliant sales strategy. But, no one has ever accused me of being a good salesman. I don’t believe I have ever made a post to convince anyone to purchase my software in the quarter century that I have offered it. Frankly, the person that made these claims is over his head on a real AP site. He was chased off three AP sites as he simply cannot win arguments against those that have more knowledge and more experience than he. That is, in no way, to say that he is not a valuable contributor. He is – or, at least was, in describing his experiences in his particular style of play in his particular arena and circumstances. But, he doesn’t seem to understand that there are so many methods of AP, and more to be developed. That there are so many differences in skill sets, goals, opportunities, resources, etc. One size does not fit all. Over the last six months, he has become more and more extreme in his claims. BJTF is littered with his personal attacks and accusations of some secret agenda, despite the claim here that I did not allow this.

I don’t know the point of months of attacks on multiple sites. I don’t know why he spins simple disagreements into plots to take money from innocents. Transforming disagreements into some sort of morality play. I only know that it harms us all. While such nonsensical discourse rages, forums become as dysfunctional as the current U.S. political system, where discussion of ideas and plans has been replaced by barbs about sweating and spray tans. I guess that’s what people here want. It is not what the members of BJTF and BJ21 want; and they have made that crystal clear.

Look, people are different. That doesn’t mean they are evil. That doesn’t mean they have a conspiratorial agenda. That doesn’t mean they are scamming people. It means they have different opinions, experiences, goals, lives in general. Why would one have to go to forums on four sites shouting accusations against those with whom one disagrees? If you can’t deal with other opinions – just don’t talk to the people that hold them. In addition to the ignore member feature on my forum, I added ignore thread and ignore sub-forum options for this person – which he refused to use. He claims that he must warn people because no one ever responds to posts he doesn’t like. This, again, is utter nonsense. The discussion has been vibrant and many-sided.

In summary, I want what I have always wanted. Comity. Let the casinos battle each other. APs should not battle each other. Forums should not battle each other. I don’t believe there is a single post on BJTF against this forum, despite what has transpired here over the last six months. What’s the point? And, I have not included a link or full name to BJTF in any post here as I am not advertising it. I don’t want heavy volume. I just want a place to talk about AP without this blasted drama. I have stopped the nonsense on BJTF. BJ21 members have squelched it on their site. It will, no doubt, continue here and on the anti-Semitic site, where he has recently taken it, for many months to come as you folks endulge in a food fight. As for me, I’m going back to what I enjoy. Work on providing resources to the community. First update to the Blackjack Weather Center is scheduled for this week, Bill Zender just sent me a batch of old table condition stats I might be able to use to add charts of conditions over time, and today I’m working on a convenient method of searching CBJN from your phone. Free, of course.

You seem like a great guy. Maybe the greatest ever. Saint-like. But none of that really applies to the suspension list.


ZCore13

Quote: RonC

It wasn't just you. I felt the same way after reading it.

The question is, who's going to put on their big boy pants and walk away my latest and greatest hero? I heard at least three candidates..... No smiley.

" It will, no doubt, continue here and on the anti-Semitic site, where he has recently taken it. " Is this a personal insult about a member ? Just asking.

It is a statement of fact. It is not run by a member here. I choose not to identify it by url.

Quote: ziadymf

" It will, no doubt, continue here and on the anti-Semitic site, where he has recently taken it. " Is this a personal insult about a member ? Just asking.

You are who, if you don't mind me asking?

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Wow! What a post! I actually read the whole darn thing. I hope no one is so silly as to dismiss the tremendous contributions of Norm to the world, particularly in the blackjack community.

I would love to have commented positively, or give a 'thumbs up' or some such response on this statement, as well as McAllister's statements yesterday, but sadly I am no longer permitted to.

But I will say this: OJ Simpson was a great football player both in college and in professional. No one is denying that. BUT he likely murdered two people. When discussing the later event, the former events are irrelevant.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

BUT, I thought I saw digs/pokes imbedded in the post that were not necessary, digs/pokes that actually deminished the great points he was trying to make. Pride is a dangerous asset.

Quote: RonC

It wasn't just you. I felt the same way after reading it.

I am glad others saw this as well. I am normally not one to run to management crying. But having just served a suspension because a complaint was filed, I have to wonder if turn-about isn't fair.

But in the end....this is beyond ridiculous (I will concede by both parties). I just can't do this anymore. I have been run off the other site in question, which is fine. That person has a right to do so. And now I have been pursued here and trolled in an effort to have me run off this site that the person really had no interest in participating on for 6 years.

I give up. I am mentally exhausted. I concede the whole internet to my opponent.

It never ends. I NEVER tried to run him off this site. It is not trolling to respond to six months of false accusations. I did not murder two people.

Quote: QFIT

It never ends. I NEVER tried to run him off this site. It is not trolling to respond to six months of false accusations. I did not murder two people.

Mods?? Are we allowed to respond to each other or not? This person complained to wizard about "truce violations" and I was suspended. Do the rules apply both ways? I just want to understand the rules before I play the game.

Quote: QFIT

It never ends. I NEVER tried to run him off this site. It is not trolling to respond to six months of false accusations. I did not murder two people.

Neither did OJ

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/06/oj-simpson-serial-killer-claims-killed-nicole-brown-simpson-bombshell-prison-letter/


But once the public is convinced to believe something, nothing will change the narrative.

Quote: kewlj

Mods?? Are we allowed to respond to each other or not? This person complained to wizard and I was suspended. I just want to know the rules before I play the game.

Unsolicited advice....Your better and above this. Most here know the person you are, so why worry? Keep doing what you are doing, enjoy your life and don't let something like this define you to others who don't know you.

JMO

Quote: Boz

Unsolicited advice....Your better and above this. Most here know the person you are, so why worry? Keep doing what you are doing, enjoy your life and don't let something like this define you to others who don't know you.

JMO

Thank you Boz. I know this was meant with the best of intentions am I accept it that was and appreciate your advice.

But the fact is this has already defined and damaged me throughout the blackjack community. I have been run off one of the most prominent blackjack sites, which I participated on from day 1 of it's inception, making the very first post. My reputation at the most prominent BJ site, BJ21 has been so damaged that I don't feel welcome. I have lost friends, including my closest online BJ networking friend. It's not that they aren't in agreement with me, but they have long since given up the fight.

It's a fight that I can't win against an opponent very seasoned in the art of this kind of warfare. Despite his positive accomplishments and contributions to the BJ community, as he himself mentioned he also has a history of numerous of these wars with other parties throughout the community. He referenced one such feud, but there have been many. He referenced "the hate site" That is a site populated with a dozen members of the community that he is currently feuding with, including several professional AP's. When a person has a history of the same conflicts over and over, you do wonder what is going on. I am not the first and I suspect I won't be the last that he tries to bring down.

AS to why I fight? My reputation, shattered and damaged is worth fighting for to me...even knowing that I can not win. I guess at this point, I am the 'Black Knight' in the Monty Python movie having lost my arms and legs, yet still fighting. That's all I can do. In the end...the bully will win. He has already won. Perhaps he won before I even started.

Just play your game and to hell with what anyone else thinks.

Quote: kewlj

AS to why I fight? My reputation, shattered and damaged is worth fighting for to me...even knowing that I can not win. I guess at this point, I am the 'Black Knight' in the Monty Python movie having lost my arms and legs, yet still fighting. That's all I can do. In the end...the bully will win.

Wow. Your reality is one I can't begin to comprehend.

Once upon a time I gave some advice to AoS.
The advice was to take a deep breath.
I repeat that advice to KewlJ now, just breathe, first one breath, then a bigger one.
See how good that feels, take another, a really big one.... Ahhh!
You already won, at least on these Forums, bask in the glow, breathe.....
Quit fighting here, it is beneath you. Big breath.... ahhhhhh!
If you gotta fight, TAKE IT OUTSIDE!
The fight is NOT welcome here, which is a message you, maybe others, didn't hear?

Quote: teliot

Wow. Your reality is one I can't begin to comprehend.

Really? You...having been maligned throughout the community, I would have thought would understand at least the concept, more than most. Maybe the difference is that you don't care or care less than I do.....I don't know. Maybe that makes you stronger than me. :/

The “Hate Site” does indeed have a few people that have been banned at BJTF. But, they were also banned at Ken’s site. Some also banned at AP.com and BJ21.com. Most of the bans were for extreme racist posts. I am not feuding with them. They have made over 2,000 posts about me. Among them, they claim that I knew about 9/11 in advance and let people die. Their logic is that all NY Jews knew about it, so I must have. They also claim that I am responsible for tens of millions of Ebola deaths. I missed that on the news. The most popular thread is “Images – Evil Jews” with thousands of anti-Semetic posts. They also have many threads on Holocaust denial. I’m surprised anyone would consider using this site as an example of my flaws.

His rep was indeed seriously harmed at BJ21. That wasn’t my doing. He started four threads directly attacking me filled with astounding fabrications and continued this as everyone begged for it to stop. Any damage to his rep was directly due to his own actions.

I have no history of numerous wars. I am a forum admin, and admins have problems like this. There are two sites that make daily attacks against Mike from people that have been barred here. Before Ken closed his site, he had the same problems. That’s a part of being an admin.

The exaggerations become wilder and wilder.

I don’t want ANYONE banned or “brought down”. I just want the attacks, now on four sites, to stop. I ignored the attacks here for five months. When it was clear ignoring them didn't work, I finally responded. He called that trolling. He can stop these attacks any time he wishes.

Quote: kewlj

Really? You...having been maligned throughout the community, I would have thought would understand at least the concept, more than most.

Yes. People often post very nasty things about me on various boards as well as comments on apheat. The way I deal with it is to make these comments as public and visible as I possibly can (including publishing them in my book). I assume those who care will do the work to make an informed decision. Saying/writing negative things almost always reflects worse on the person making the comments than on the receiver.

Quote: QFIT

I don’t want ANYONE banned or “brought down”. I just want the attacks, now on four sites, to stop. I ignored the attacks here for five months. When it was clear ignoring them didn't work, I finally responded. .

What attacks?
I read most of Kewj's posts and they are generally information posts
We do have rules regarding insults
We don't have rules regarding criticism.
If its logical criticism, then you need to leave the board if you cant take it
If its insults, you have a case but I don't see the insults against you

I have advice for Qfit as well.....
Take a deep breath.
You do not want to sound like a teenage girl in a beech fight, do you?
Big breath... Ahhhhhh!
You da man, everybody ALREADY knows you da man.
Go bask in the glow, stay out of beech fights....
Well, unless you really want to be a beech, pls tell me..NOT..
Just 2F

<edit> breathe deeply or not, your choice. TAKE IT OUTSIDE, that would be my choice, if I had one.

Quote: teliot

Yes. People often post very nasty things about me on various boards as well as comments on apheat. The way I deal with it is to make these comments as public and visible as I possibly can (including publishing them in my book). I assume those who care will do the work to make an informed decision. Saying/writing negative things almost always reflects worse on the person making the comments than on the receiver.

"You are a disgrace. Get a real job and stop being the brown nose ass kissing teacher's pet to the casino."

I almost fell out of my chair when I read that quote on the back cover of your book. Keep up the good work and positive attitude.

The words "attack" and "opinion" are NOT synonyms, as they are conveniently being used. They are not interchangeable.

I have an OPINION of certain resources. I have a right to express that opinion to newer players. I am sorry that the owner of one site (resource) feels slighted that my OPINION is not favorable.

So when someone say they just want to stop the "attacks", I suggest they use the correct term, so there is no confusion. Just say "I want to stop negative OPINIONS and control the narrative of opinions concerning me and/or my website, throughout the internet, even on sites that I have no desire to participate on".

Please stop this. You have your platform. You have your site. You now have BJ21. Both of which I have stopped participating on.

Obviously I have no authority to tell you to stop participating here. And really I welcome and encourage you to participate here regularly....IF.... you wish to constructively contribute. But if you are just here to harass and attack me, and attempt to extend your goal to censor me, throughout the internet, which is the only conclusion one can draw based on your history, I respectfully ask you to stick to your own platforms and leave me the HELL alone! You DO NOT get to control OPINIONS throughout the internet!

Quote: RonC

I didn't miss it at all, thanks. I know he is.

Okay. I think some people didn't know who 'QFIT' was. Seems that everyone should be on the same page now.

KJ- I like the signature. Tru Dat.