Discussion III about the Suspension List
Quote: EvenBob
There's a rumor that in the moderator back room you're all naked. I don't want to think about this.
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I heard you're naked under your clothes.
I try not to think about that.
Quote: billryanEye'd bee inn deep chit wiffout grammerly
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never heard it b4
Quote: gordonm888In the thread titled "Roblox Online Gambling" we had the following situation occur:
1. A new member named jjhons posted about a somewhat interesting topic, namely new software making it easier to monetize video games online such that players can actually play and win or lose crypto or cash - potentially without the oversight of gambling regulatory entities.
2. jjhons interacted with members in a fairly normal way, but was challenged by members as to whether he was an AI bot or not. jjhons responded by admitting that he had used AI to improve parts of the text of his post because English is not his native language.
3. At that point, moderators initially nuked jjhons for posting an AI enhanced message, but we have temporarily unbanned him while we try to consider what our policy is. Technically, an app like Grammarly uses AI, so is the use of Grammarly for innocuous changes in grammar or in wording a violation of forum policy? None of us want messages generated by AI bots, but where do we draw the line? We're discussing this in the moderator backroom.
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Why not just evaluate based on the value of content. If the Ai is better than most of us posters, I say, let it post. And if it otherwise can stay within the rules.
Also, If we banned here just on not directly related to gambling, I'd have been banned a long time ago.
Quote: rxwine
Why not just evaluate based on the value of content. If the Ai is better than most of us posters, I say, let it post. And if it otherwise can stay within the rules.
Also, If we banned here just on not directly related to gambling, I'd have been banned a long time ago.
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Those are interesting points.
Fortunately, most machine generated posts do not seem to meet that threshold for quality, and often violate one or more of the other rules, like not meeting the minimum age requirement for forum membership.
Or AI routines to moderate the WOV forum?
the banned-now-unbanned-poster seems to have had a bad experience with his robot trying to help. Clearly many of us thought he was a spammer. In fact it still looks suspicious to me that he focused on one company when clearly there must be a *whole host* of bitcoin accepting types that could contribute to the delinquency of an idiot... or a minor, even, I guess , ha ha
I'd say your policy should be that an AI helped post should have no smell whatsoever of spam, more so than a regular posting, zero tolerance
Quote: billryanI think I'd be more concerned with growing a dying forum than coming up with more excuses to ban people
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Increasing noise vs signal would surely help with that goal.
Hmmmm.Quote: billryanI think I'd be more concerned with growing a dying forum than coming up with more excuses to ban people
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Quote: billryanAddition by subtraction.
Nuff Said!
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Quote: gordonm888How long until someone develops AI to identify AI-generated text?
Or AI routines to moderate the WOV forum?
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I always just assumed that Dieter was AI. No human could eat what he eats and survive for long.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: gordonm888How long until someone develops AI to identify AI-generated text?
Or AI routines to moderate the WOV forum?
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I always just assumed that Dieter was AI. No human could eat what he eats and survive for long.
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It darned near killed me a few times, but survival could be part of my programming.
It would explain a few posters on here :)
Quote: WizardSpeaking of AI, we just added a rule about it to the forum rules. Please have a look. I welcome all questions.
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Why is it #20 and not 21.
Quote: darkozSo if a poster was conceived through artificial insemination does that make them artificial intelligence?
It would explain a few posters on here :)
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No? (Case by case basis, Potter Stewart, etc.)
Preemptively, I'll also say no(?) on immaculate conceptions and IVF.
Quote: WizardSpeaking of AI, we just added a rule about it to the forum rules. Please have a look. I welcome all questions.
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Yes. I am quite astounded that on this site, one intended to discuss what is going on in Vegas and in the casinos, we will be addressing that question that has confounded the greatest minds in millennia of human history- what is a soul, and who if anyone has one? I have known many brilliant men of faith, and also many brilliant men who reject faith who discuss this vigorously and exhaustively, yet reach scant conclusions. One thing they may agree upon is it defies objective analysis, leaving only the subjective.
On the matter of sentience- that word is often used interchangeably with "self-awareness" or "consciousness." There are subtle lexical difference but being the phenomena the words refer to are not fully understood those differences could be non-existent, or they could be very profound differences to the point where it is possible to have one in full, while none of the others. It's believed there are humans who do not grasp "theory of mind," do not recognize that another person they are interacting with has a mind like theirs and thus comparable motivations, perceptions, desires and aversions.
It would be interesting and serendipitous if great progress in answering these questions- defining or describing the soul, as well as degrees and varieties of sentience, developing reliable Turing Tests, and a general understanding of human psychology in itself or perhaps also as part of a grand anthropic framework- came about from developing methods to combat online AI spammers on this very site! One element of it I'm noticing already is that people seem to care about whether what they are reading is coming from a person or a bot, while the bots do not appear to make that distinction. Perhaps a preference for and deference to humanity is a defining characteristic of humanity?
Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: WizardSpeaking of AI, we just added a rule about it to the forum rules. Please have a look. I welcome all questions.
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Yes. I am quite astounded that on this site, one intended to discuss what is going on in Vegas and in the casinos, we will be addressing that question that has confounded the greatest minds in millennia of human history- what is a soul, and who if anyone has one? I have known many brilliant men of faith, and also many brilliant men who reject faith who discuss this vigorously and exhaustively, yet reach scant conclusions. One thing they may agree upon is it defies objective analysis, leaving only the subjective.
On the matter of sentience- that word is often used interchangeably with "self-awareness" or "consciousness." There are subtle lexical difference but being the phenomena the words refer to are not fully understood those differences could be non-existent, or they could be very profound differences to the point where it is possible to have one in full, while none of the others. It's believed there are humans who do not grasp "theory of mind," do not recognize that another person they are interacting with has a mind like theirs and thus comparable motivations, perceptions, desires and aversions.
It would be interesting and serendipitous if great progress in answering these questions- defining or describing the soul, as well as degrees and varieties of sentience, developing reliable Turing Tests, and a general understanding of human psychology in itself or perhaps also as part of a grand anthropic framework- came about from developing methods to combat online AI spammers on this very site! One element of it I'm noticing already is that people seem to care about whether what they are reading is coming from a person or a bot, while the bots do not appear to make that distinction. Perhaps a preference for and deference to humanity is a defining characteristic of humanity?
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This feels like it was written by AI.
Just my opinion.
Quote: darkoz
This feels like it was written by AI.
Just my opinion.
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Ah, I did that for humor and didactic purposes! The prolix style and word choices that result in social ostracism, as well as the way the paragraphs are blocked create that impression. But I did leave behind a giveaway of an organic mind... see how the paragraphs become slightly longer and more complex as I go. An AI LLM already knows what it is going to say before it starts writing, but as I write one paragraph it stimulates my mind and gives me more ideas I want to include in the next paragraph. So the next one gets longer and weirder.
Quote: darkozThis feels like it was written by AI.
Just my opinion.
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I agree. I personally don't care for posts substantially enhanced by AI, but will stop short of banning it, as it's too hard to prove.
Any chance a scroll button could be added that would take you to the bottom of a thread?
I am tired of scrolling.
All those extra seconds of my life add up when I could waste it doing something I like instead.
Quote: rxwineAbusing this thread, (‘cause it’s seen by more people)(might want other opinions)
Any chance a scroll button could be added that would take you to the bottom of a thread?
I am tired of scrolling.
All those extra seconds of my life add up when I could waste it doing something I like instead.
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If you have a keyboard, try chording Control-Shift-End.
Best of luck!
Quote: DieterQuote: rxwineAbusing this thread, (‘cause it’s seen by more people)(might want other opinions)
Any chance a scroll button could be added that would take you to the bottom of a thread?
I am tired of scrolling.
All those extra seconds of my life add up when I could waste it doing something I like instead.
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If you have a keyboard, try chording Control-Shift-End.
Best of luck!
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How about an Ipad?
Quote: rxwineQuote: DieterQuote: rxwineAbusing this thread, (‘cause it’s seen by more people)(might want other opinions)
Any chance a scroll button could be added that would take you to the bottom of a thread?
I am tired of scrolling.
All those extra seconds of my life add up when I could waste it doing something I like instead.
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If you have a keyboard, try chording Control-Shift-End.
Best of luck!
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How about an Ipad?
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If you don't have a keyboard, try getting a keyboard.
Best of luck!
Quote: rxwineAbusing this thread, (‘cause it’s seen by more people)(might want other opinions)
Any chance a scroll button could be added that would take you to the bottom of a thread?
I am tired of scrolling.
All those extra seconds of my life add up when I could waste it doing something I like instead.
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#1) Push spacebar. Or,
#2) Add your very own "skip the old crap at the top to get to the new crap at the bottom" button to your browser (in Chrome):
https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/scroll-to-the-bottom/ccodoapghablmcdbmpjgcbmjhafanebm?pli=1
EDIT to add:
No. Just no.Quote: rxwineHow about an Ipad?
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Quote: DeucekiesWow! ChumpChange is suspended until February of the year 15,725? That's a pretty stiff penalty, I must say... 😉
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That's about 12,000 years from now. Another ice age should be well underway by then. Makes a nuke look mild by comparison.
Quote: DeucekiesWow! ChumpChange is suspended until February of the year 15,725? That's a pretty stiff penalty, I must say... 😉
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Thank you for pointing out this typo. The End date of the suspension has now been changed to 2/17/25 on the Suspension List.
One thing about WOV forum: Every member is a wise-ass and no typo shall go unpunished. Gotta love it.
Quote: gordonm888Quote: DeucekiesWow! ChumpChange is suspended until February of the year 15,725? That's a pretty stiff penalty, I must say... 😉
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Thank you for pointing out this typo. The End date of the suspension has now been changed to 2/17/25 on the Suspension List.
One thing about WOV forum: Every member is a wise-ass and no typo shall go unpunished. Gotta love it.
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How boring. The 12,000 year suspension was much more exciting. You know, wondering what we would all be doing 12,000 years from now.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: gordonm888Quote: DeucekiesWow! ChumpChange is suspended until February of the year 15,725? That's a pretty stiff penalty, I must say... 😉
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Thank you for pointing out this typo. The End date of the suspension has now been changed to 2/17/25 on the Suspension List.
One thing about WOV forum: Every member is a wise-ass and no typo shall go unpunished. Gotta love it.
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How boring. The 12,000 year suspension was much more exciting. You know, wondering what we would all be doing 12,000 years from now.
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With good behavior, we might have cut it to 10,800 years. No one can deny that the moderators are a bunch of sweethearts.
Quote: gordonm888Quote: EvenBobQuote: gordonm888Quote: DeucekiesWow! ChumpChange is suspended until February of the year 15,725? That's a pretty stiff penalty, I must say... 😉
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Thank you for pointing out this typo. The End date of the suspension has now been changed to 2/17/25 on the Suspension List.
One thing about WOV forum: Every member is a wise-ass and no typo shall go unpunished. Gotta love it.
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How boring. The 12,000 year suspension was much more exciting. You know, wondering what we would all be doing 12,000 years from now.
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With good behavior, we might have cut it to 10,800 years. No one can deny that the moderators are a bunch of sweethearts.
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I don't think sweethearts means what you think it means.
I just clicked on that user name and they are in blue nowQuote: NathanJust a heads up. Glunn11 got a two week Suspension on April 5th. Glunn11 is to this VERY day STILL Suspended just over three weeks later on April 27th. 💡
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Quote: avianrandyI just clicked on that user name and they are in blue nowQuote: NathanJust a heads up. Glunn11 got a two week Suspension on April 5th. Glunn11 is to this VERY day STILL Suspended just over three weeks later on April 27th. 💡
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Yeah. Now.
I'll spare you any number of lame excuses about why, and stick with I didn't cancel the suspension as originally scheduled.
Quote: billryanPerhaps a volunteer gate-keeper position could be established that privately reminds the powers that be when this sort of thing occurs.
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My PM's are open, if someone thinks their calendar-fu is better than mine.
Otherwise, the practice of publically calling me (or another mod) out when someone is a scant few hours overdue for release had been working for years, if someone prefers to carry the traditions forward.
I'd hate to deprive anyone of the immaculate joy of reprimanding me merely by not failing to meet expectations.
Quote: avianrandyI just clicked on that user name and they are in blue nowQuote: NathanJust a heads up. Glunn11 got a two week Suspension on April 5th. Glunn11 is to this VERY day STILL Suspended just over three weeks later on April 27th. 💡
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Gulp. I wasn't even aware that Glunn11 had been suspended. Whomever he is.
Quote: MDawg
The Wolf and I cannot come to terms as to this, so we request mutual suspension.
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Looks like it ended up a de facto mutual suspension, anyway!
Quote: Dieter
Call it a week.
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Quote: DieterI'm calling that a week
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Quote: gordonm888You are permanently banned from the forum for creating a sock puppet
Yes, the one unforgivable sin at WOV is creating a sock puppet. Unless of course you have competent counsel able to finesse behind the scenes a return from the dead .
The nuke on top of that is really a form over substance application of the rules. Archvaldor was not doing the types of things we want to nuke socks for. Instead he was emotionally reacting to Gordon’s conflicted suspension of him.
Was it against the rules? Yes. But it was like involuntary manslaughter not first degree murder.
I think he should be reinstated. I also think a disinterested moderator should review the situation and Gordon should consider a voluntary suspension.
Nathan served YEARS before she was finally allowed back in. Creating a sock is not something taken lightly here, apparently.
Also, the jury might still be out on Archvaldor. Let's see if he stays away or keeps coming back under more guises the way Boz, KewlJ, Expectedvalue/WON, Buzzard, and others have done. Some of these socks try to make a differentiation between that they have made it clear it is they upon arrival (Boz), while others have tried to dupe us by not making it clear (KewlJ, Nathan, WON, maybe Buzzard?), but that's a difference THEY comfort themselves with, the point is that they are trying to return from the dead, without the blessing of a sanctioned resurrection.
Quote: unJonI am posting to protest the nuking of Archvaldor. I think Gordon was conflicted (as he introduced/contributed to the hijack and political topic) and shouldn’t have issued the original 7-day suspension, but rather deferred to another moderator.
The nuke on top of that is really a form over substance application of the rules. Archvaldor was not doing the types of things we want to nuke socks for. Instead he was emotionally reacting to Gordon’s conflicted suspension of him.
Was it against the rules? Yes. But it was like involuntary manslaughter not first degree murder.
I think he should be reinstated. I also think a disinterested moderator should review the situation and Gordon should consider a voluntary suspension.
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I disagree. Creating a sock once you've been suspended is like escaping from jail. Instead of just taking your punishment you say, screw you. I'll just come back under another name and keep bothering people. Escaping from jail can add years to your sentence. Being nuked for creating a sock is deserved punishment. Or maybe they should just change it to banning somebody for 10 years. Would that make you happy?
Quote: MDawgEh, maybe.
Nathan served YEARS before she was finally allowed back in. Creating a sock is not something taken lightly here, apparently.
Also, the jury might still be out on Archvaldor. Let's see if he stays away or keeps coming back under more guises the way Boz, KewlJ, Expectedvalue/WON, Buzzard, and others have done. Some of these socks try to make a differentiation between that they have made it clear it is they upon arrival (Boz), while others have tried to dupe us into not making it clear (KewlJ, Nathan, maybe Buzzard?), but that's a difference THEY comfort themselves with, the point is that they are trying to return from the dead, without the blessing of a sanctioned resurrection.
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I get this. I just think in this case Archvaldor is being nuked for the equivalent of being a kid that failed the marshmallow experiment.
Quote: gordonm888I guess we did not fully explain Wizard's agreement with billryan. Bill is indeed permitted to start new threads on gambling topics but is asked/required to find already existing threads for non-gambling posts unless he has permission from a moderator to start a new non-gambling thread. There is no restriction on Bill of any kind (except for the forum rules) on creating a blog post.
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A Poster made a VERY disturbing , scary, concerning, frightening, horrifying thread when I was still an active member years ago and I had a VERY similar good idea to your good idea and I suggested that that poster moving forward be put on a restricted Account, where all of his posts and threads MUST be approved by an Admin before being visible to the forum. My good idea went absolutely nowhere. 😐
Quote: gordonm888I guess we did not fully explain Wizard's agreement with billryan. Bill is indeed permitted to start new threads on gambling topics but is asked/required to find already existing threads for non-gambling posts unless he has permission from a moderator to start a new non-gambling thread. There is no restriction on Bill of any kind (except for the forum rules) on creating a blog post.
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I am the exact opposite, I can start a thread on anything I want except gambling. For that I have to have permission. Apparently my gambling method scares too many people that's all I can figure.
Quote: MDawgQuote: gordonm888You are permanently banned from the forum for creating a sock puppet
Yes, the one unforgivable sin at WOV is creating a sock puppet. Unless of course you have competent counsel able to finesse behind the scenes a return from the dead .
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It could be treated like reincarnation, and repentance. Or the Witness Protection Program. They say most people in that program fail because they go right back to doing the things they used to do and that is how they are identified. You have to give it all up for it to work.
Oh no, I've been reading my Dr. Bronner's soap bottle again!
Suppose you are suspended and you come back with a new account immediately, but everything is different. Unrelated game, unrelated topics of discussion, different writing style, you don't acknowledge knowing the people, places and things your old identity did, and you might even change your IP in case that is being monitored.
If you've given up so much that no one can recognize you either in name or deed, what would be the point of extended punishment? Isn't completely abandoning the persona that has sinned penance enough? It's like Hitler died, and he is reincarnated as a plumber in Peru. He now has nothing in common with Hitler, except that he used to be him, so what is your quarrel with the plumber? If he knew he used to be Hitler, would it make a difference?
Identity from the perspective of self and the perspective of others is not the same thing, and to attempt to link the two is a bridge too far. If the new member is the only person who knows he is a banned member, how could that be policed without absurdity? Perhaps it is best addressed as one of those "Don't let me catch you..." rules, where the enforcer is really saying "If you break the rule unobtrusively enough that I don't notice, you are breaking it unobtrusively enough that no one else is going to be troubled by it, and that fulfills the purpose of the rule."
Overly masking that prior consciousness would defeat the purpose of resurrection.
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Identity from the perspective of self and the perspective of others is not the same thing, and to attempt to link the two is a bridge too far. If the new member is the only person who knows he is a banned member, how could that be policed without absurdity? Perhaps it is best addressed as one of those "Don't let me catch you..." rules, where the enforcer is really saying "If you break the rule unobtrusively enough that I don't notice, you are breaking it unobtrusively enough that no one else is going to be troubled by it, and that fulfills the purpose of the rule."
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Duplicate accounts are not permitted.
That said, if we do not notice, we cannot enforce the prohibition on multiple accounts.
We often notice, usually for reasons like "the new account keeps pressing the same old dispute that the prior account was banned for less than an hour ago".
I will not encourage breaking the forum rules.
I might suggest staying logged in and reading the forum regularly from the banned account, if you wish to be properly reinstated. There are, of course, no assurances that this will work.
