Arguements about house edge on dont
September 10th, 2012 at 2:15:55 PM
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We figure the house edge of the pass with very simple visualization and math to be 1.414...%. In the same way I figure dont to be 1.3636...%.Others have always insisted that the dont is 1.4%. I have always flippantly answered this question by remarking that if you can do math its 1.3636, if not its 1.4. (lol) . I realize the question revolves around whether a tie (the 12 in craps) is a resolution of a bet or not. I assert that in life and in craps a tie must be considered a resolution of a contest, or the math visualization becomes a circus. What is the highest answer to this question?
September 10th, 2012 at 2:26:48 PM
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I consider the ties to be a resolution.
Because the pass line bet was a resolution.
if two players made 1000 bets at the same table,
PlayerA 1000 pass line
PlayerB 1000 don't pass
There will be a different number of bets resolved.
The # of pass line bets resolved is a constant at 1000
The # of don't pass line bets resolved is a variable
So including the Bar 12 push gives a better indication of what the DPass player can expect after X number of bets made
since all of PlayerB 1000 bets were not resolved as a win or loss at the same time that PlayerA was.
added
Don't Pass house edge at -3/220 (-0.013636364)
Don't Pass house edge at -27/1925 (-0.014025974)
Because the pass line bet was a resolution.
if two players made 1000 bets at the same table,
PlayerA 1000 pass line
PlayerB 1000 don't pass
There will be a different number of bets resolved.
The # of pass line bets resolved is a constant at 1000
The # of don't pass line bets resolved is a variable
So including the Bar 12 push gives a better indication of what the DPass player can expect after X number of bets made
since all of PlayerB 1000 bets were not resolved as a win or loss at the same time that PlayerA was.
added
Don't Pass house edge at -3/220 (-0.013636364)
| Event | Freq. | Dont' Pass Line Bet | Total Line | Odds Bet | Total Odds | Line Pay | Odds Pay |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Natural | 440 | 1 | 440 | 0 | 0 | -440 | 0 |
| Craps2,3 | 165 | 1 | 165 | 0 | 0 | 165 | 0 |
| Push 12 | 55 | 1 | 55 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 4 Made | 55 | 1 | 55 | 0 | 0 | -55 | 0 |
| 4 Not | 110 | 1 | 110 | 0 | 0 | 110 | 0 |
| 5 Made | 88 | 1 | 88 | 0 | 0 | -88 | 0 |
| 5 Not | 132 | 1 | 132 | 0 | 0 | 132 | 0 |
| 6 Made | 125 | 1 | 125 | 0 | 0 | -125 | 0 |
| 6 Not | 150 | 1 | 150 | 0 | 0 | 150 | 0 |
| 8 Made | 125 | 1 | 125 | 0 | 0 | -125 | 0 |
| 8 Not | 150 | 1 | 150 | 0 | 0 | 150 | 0 |
| 9 Made | 88 | 1 | 88 | 0 | 0 | -88 | 0 |
| 9 Not | 132 | 1 | 132 | 0 | 0 | 132 | 0 |
| 10 Made | 55 | 1 | 55 | 0 | 0 | -55 | 0 |
| 10 Not | 110 | 1 | 110 | 0 | 0 | 110 | 0 |
| Totals - | 1980 | xxx | 1,980 | xxx | 0 | -27 | 0 |
| 1,980 | -0.013636364 | -27 | |||||
| handle | house edge | net loss |
Don't Pass house edge at -27/1925 (-0.014025974)
| Event | Freq. | Line Bet | Total Line | Odds Bet | Total Odds | Line Pay | Odds Pay |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Natural | 440 | 1 | 440 | 0 | 0 | -440 | 0 |
| Craps2,3 | 165 | 1 | 165 | 0 | 0 | 165 | 0 |
| Push 12 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 4 Made | 55 | 1 | 55 | 0 | 0 | -55 | 0 |
| 4 Not | 110 | 1 | 110 | 0 | 0 | 110 | 0 |
| 5 Made | 88 | 1 | 88 | 0 | 0 | -88 | 0 |
| 5 Not | 132 | 1 | 132 | 0 | 0 | 132 | 0 |
| 6 Made | 125 | 1 | 125 | 0 | 0 | -125 | 0 |
| 6 Not | 150 | 1 | 150 | 0 | 0 | 150 | 0 |
| 8 Made | 125 | 1 | 125 | 0 | 0 | -125 | 0 |
| 8 Not | 150 | 1 | 150 | 0 | 0 | 150 | 0 |
| 9 Made | 88 | 1 | 88 | 0 | 0 | -88 | 0 |
| 9 Not | 132 | 1 | 132 | 0 | 0 | 132 | 0 |
| 10 Made | 55 | 1 | 55 | 0 | 0 | -55 | 0 |
| 10 Not | 110 | 1 | 110 | 0 | 0 | 110 | 0 |
| Totals - | 1925 | xxx | 1,925 | xxx | 0 | -27 | 0 |
| 1,925 | -0.014025974 | -27 | |||||
| handle | house edge | net loss |
September 10th, 2012 at 2:32:20 PM
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I totally agree with you. You should count pushes in the house edge calculation of the don't if youre trying to compare with the pass line because the pass line is resolved on the 12. This obviously leads to 1.36%. However, I wouldn't go to out of my way to correct these people claim those that it is 1.4% since people who play the don't help ruin the social cooperation inherent in the pass line game. People who hear it's 1.36% instead may be more likely to play the "dark side".
September 10th, 2012 at 3:10:42 PM
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Quote: ray37I assert that in life and in craps a tie must be considered a resolution of a contest, or the math visualization becomes a circus. What is the highest answer to this question?
My definition of a resolution is: Whenever you're allowed to pick up your money, it's a resolution of the bet.
For example on roulette with la partage rule, the bet resolves when a zero is hit (you can pick up half your stake).
With the en prison rule, the bet does not resolve immediatly after the zero is hit, it resolves the next spin.
If both bets would resolve right after zero is hit (and you would understand the en prison bet as a half push which you must then rebet), both rules would have the same EV. However with the en prison rule you cannot pick up the push, and hence the en prison rule has a little bit higher house edge.
September 10th, 2012 at 3:24:52 PM
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Quote: MangoJMy definition of a resolution is: Whenever you're allowed to pick up your money, it's a resolution of the bet.
If I make a Place 6 bet and a 9 rolls, I can pick up my money. If that counts as a resolution, the edge on the 6 is not 1.52% but 0.46%.
There's an inconsistency in the way some people look at house edge, especially on dice games where "nothing happens" is a frequent occurrence. When "nothing happens" on the place or hardway bets, many people tend to discount those events because they represent so large a frequency: "nothing happens" to a hard 4 bet 75% of the time. But "nothing happens" to a don't bet only 2.78% of the time, so some prefer to quote that "nothing" in the edge.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 10th, 2012 at 3:33:54 PM
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Legally a tie does in fact resolve the Don't bet because it can then be taken down by the player if he wishes. Most of course leave it up there for the next roll.
>1.3636 for those who can do math
Those who can do math still have to keep up with a fast paced dice game, just as those who drunkenly mutter Edge? I ain't got no edges, I'm a girl... I got curves!
>1.3636 for those who can do math
Those who can do math still have to keep up with a fast paced dice game, just as those who drunkenly mutter Edge? I ain't got no edges, I'm a girl... I got curves!
September 10th, 2012 at 4:11:33 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffLegally a tie does in fact resolve the Don't bet because it can then be taken down by the player if he wishes. Most of course leave it up there for the next roll.
You can always take down a don't bet, just like the place bets. The only contract bet on the dice table is the pass/come line bet (and put bets, which are the same thing).
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 14th, 2012 at 10:54:28 PM
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deleted
Last edited by: sodawater on Oct 1, 2018
September 15th, 2012 at 7:36:38 AM
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Quote: guido111I consider the ties to be a resolution.
Because the pass line bet was a resolution.
You don't normally consider ties to be a resolution when calculating house edge for prop bets.
The whole thing seems a little silly since the two numbesr differ by a multiple of 36/35. That's easily enough explained.
September 15th, 2012 at 7:55:20 AM
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This whole obsession with Pass vs Don't Pass
Is one of the most annoying arguments among gamblers.
We are talking about a dollar per 2000 bet...
To me that dollar is money well spent to enjoy the camaraderie of the game.
I can understand how some guys would rather have the dollar,
But please don't act surprised when the rest of the table
figures you for a greedy, anti social, buzzkill
LOL :)
Is one of the most annoying arguments among gamblers.
We are talking about a dollar per 2000 bet...
To me that dollar is money well spent to enjoy the camaraderie of the game.
I can understand how some guys would rather have the dollar,
But please don't act surprised when the rest of the table
figures you for a greedy, anti social, buzzkill
LOL :)
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 15th, 2012 at 8:14:29 AM
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The Camaraderie of the game?
I prefer the camaraderie of winners to the camaraderie of losers ...
but the goal is to win money, not have a good time. And if that is only one dollar out of two grand, its still better to be a winner than a loser.
I prefer the camaraderie of winners to the camaraderie of losers ...
but the goal is to win money, not have a good time. And if that is only one dollar out of two grand, its still better to be a winner than a loser.
September 15th, 2012 at 8:27:58 AM
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Crapsplayers are superstitious and the don't players are good scapegoats..
Laugh at him on the hot rolls,
Nothing funnier than watching the table sneer at him on the seven outs.
Throw dice at him on a come out after the table gets wiped out and he pockets his meager win...
it's all good. Most of the dontplayers are used to the abuse, and even welcome it.
Probably going upstairs to have some pros step on his genitals with her stilettos afterwards anyway...
:)
Laugh at him on the hot rolls,
Nothing funnier than watching the table sneer at him on the seven outs.
Throw dice at him on a come out after the table gets wiped out and he pockets his meager win...
it's all good. Most of the dontplayers are used to the abuse, and even welcome it.
Probably going upstairs to have some pros step on his genitals with her stilettos afterwards anyway...
:)
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 15th, 2012 at 8:37:43 AM
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No... Don't players are the ones who own the Stiletto Outcall Agency. We bought it with that "extra'' dollar.
September 15th, 2012 at 8:41:00 AM
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You forget, it is just one less dollar lost, not a net win...
But that's ok, you keep betting the don't
and I will keep throwing my sky high lob at your head...
;)
But that's ok, you keep betting the don't
and I will keep throwing my sky high lob at your head...
;)
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 15th, 2012 at 9:42:44 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffbut the goal is to win money, not have a good time. And if that is only one dollar out of two grand, its still better to be a winner than a loser.
If your goal is to win money, don't play against the house. That should be common sense. Either you're losing in the long run, or they have no incentive or obligation to let you stay. If you're so keen on losing less over having a good time, stop playing craps.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
September 15th, 2012 at 8:07:02 PM
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Quote: 24BingoIf your goal is to win money, don't play against the house.
Everybody is playing against the house, including don't players.
September 15th, 2012 at 8:09:34 PM
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Quote: WongBoDon't act surprised when the rest of the table
figures you for a greedy, anti social, buzzkill
LOL :)
That is just because they are ignorant and have no qualms about broadcasting that. They have not been able to figure out that the don't is absolutely no different from, say, betting on red in roulette when 90 percent of the table is betting on black.
December 10th, 2012 at 2:49:22 PM
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Well as a pass line bettor for craps I have always disliked the dont players. I know their bet does not effect me but I like a hot screaming loud crap game and dont players do not scream or yell. At least I am glad they dont.
