Proposed rule change on restricting free speech.
Poll
 | 55 votes (70.51%) | ||
| | 13 votes (16.66%) | ||
| | 5 votes (6.41%) | ||
| | 2 votes (2.56%) | ||
| | 3 votes (3.84%) |
78 members have voted
I lean heavily toward free speech and as others have noted some of these discussions have provided useful lessons in probability and other mathematical concepts. For the Gr8s of the forum it is akin to the saying about religion, paraphrasing here: for those with faith no proof is necessary and for those without no proof is possible, so block 'em or let 'em ramble on.
Obviously forum rules regarding PG, no insults etc. always trump the discussion
"Thank you. This is exactly how I feel.
For those who have experience at other forums, how do other forums devoted to a particular topic handle this problem? Maybe this is a bad comparison, but what would a forum on Judaism do with a Holocaust denier who was otherwise polite, well-spoken, and obeyed forum rules?
It's not whether you win or lose ; it's whether or not you had a good bet."
Sadly this creative editing has infiltrated all forms of media.
When a thread gets out of hand, lock it and offer anyone who cares to keep it going in another thread an enforced vacation from the board.
If someone gets out of hand, warn them and suspend them if they don't heed the warning,
I do think some people have real questions about betting systems because the math of the system sounds right to them. They get a service from being told not just that they are wrong but why they are wrong. If we do it cordially, they may end up being a good member here. That doesn't always happen...
There are many acceptable things that we can discuss about betting systems.... "What system will allow me to last the longest with a $100 buy in on a $5 craps table?" "If I don't care if I go broke, but want to try and quintuple my money, what system should I use on Pai Gow Poker?" Once the poster starts TELLING us he can beat the casino using his system, he should be given the standard explanation, and after a short expected back and forth, if he continues to post misinformation, he should be dispatched post haste.....
The DI discussion is more complicated, as it is at least theoretically possible.....
Quote: rdw4potus.....it'd be great if the ongoing discussion of the gr8est way to play baccarat could go away and be mentioned again...
Good morning, all.
I visit this forum this morning to find that Wizard had opened this new thread to "propose rule changes" for the forum based, obviously, on my participation herein. Then I continue reading and happen upon some comments such as the one I quoted just above.
I had, honestly, no idea that Wizard felt the way he apparently does regarding my ongoing membership to this forum, nor, frankly, some of the other esteemed members of this forum.
Now that I do know, let me be very clear about my position regarding this matter:
My intentions are well-meant, always. No, I am not seeking to "sucker anyone into believing" anything. All I have ever done is state my position regarding Baccarat play and the theories and methodologies around same, while treating everyone here with the utmost of respect. Am I wrong to expect reciprocity, even in the face of apparent disagreements? Alas, I apparently was.
So I will cede my membership in a New York minute if that is what the administrators and general membership prefers. No need for any formal rule changes.
I, as surely anyone else given my tenuous position, would not want to remain where unwanted.
Entertainment value IMO. It finally boils down to if no one responds it decays into a soliloquy, no Roto-Rooter needed. If it annoys someone that the post creeps up the recent posts lists, you are one click away from removing from your edition of the forum.Quote: SOOPOOThere is no way you can believe that the forum is better off with both CG and gr8 continuously posting and clogging up the site. They have nothing new to say, no new ideas, nothing to add to the forum.
Quote: gr8playerSo I will cede my membership in a New York minute if that is what the administrators and general membership prefers.
Let me preface this by saying that based on the posts I've seen, you appear to be well-spoken and act like a gentleman. Your good behavior is well appreciated.
However, your message is 180-degrees the opposite of mine. This forum was never meant to be a place to boast about a secret way to beat baccarat and laugh at conventional use of math to analyze casino games.
That said, it is indeed my wish that you resign your membership and take your ideas elsewhere.
You are more than welcome to make a goodbye post and feel free to mention any other forum(s) where you may be found in the future. I would like to be able to say that we parted company on good terms.
Yes, how respectful:Quote: gr8playerAll I have ever done is state my position regarding Baccarat play and the theories and methodologies around same, while treating everyone here with the utmost of respect.
Quote: gr8playerThis forum is unworthy of my experience, knowledge, and expertise regarding this game.... You guys are the ruination of this forum.
But back to the topic, I think there's an undue emphasis being placed on free speech. Personal insults are free speech but those are banned here, even though I can't be arrested for calling someone a jerk (or worse) if I'm just walking around on the street. I can, however, be thrown in jail for contempt of court if I call a Judge a jerk. So the same speech is differently restricted based on the forum in which it is uttered. What kind of forum is this?
Quote: Neil DeGrasse Tyson"You don't talk about the spherical earth with NASA and then say let's give equal time to the flat-earthers."
Quote: WizardMaybe this is a bad comparison, but what would a forum on Judaism do with a Holocaust denier who was otherwise polite, well-spoken, and obeyed forum rules?
Maybe?
Holocaust deniers are antisemitic bastards who want to make the persecution of Jews, and others to boot, respectable again. That does not come close to people giving bad gambling advice.
Quote: WizardLet me preface this by saying that based on the posts I've seen, you appear to be well-spoken and act like a gentleman. Your good behavior is well appreciated.
However, your message is 180-degrees the opposite of mine. This forum was never meant to be a place to boast about a secret way to beat baccarat and laugh at conventional use of math to analyze casino games.
That said, it is indeed my wish that you resign your membership and take your ideas elsewhere.
You are more than welcome to make a goodbye post and feel free to mention any other forum(s) where you may be found in the future. I would like to be able to say that we parted company on good terms.
No problem, Wizard, as I wish not to remain where unwanted. No hard feelings, and I do wish to thank you for the opportunity to be active in a wonderful forum such as yours.
I hope that no one harbors any ill-will towards me, as I surely hold no grudges towards anyone here. It's all good...
As always, and forever, I wish you all the very best of it.
Stay well, my friends. (Yes, AxiomOfChoice, I said it, aloud this one last time: MY FRIENDS.)
Quote: gr8playerNo problem, Wizard, as I wish not to remain where unwanted. No hard feelings, and I do wish to thank you for the opportunity to be active in a wonderful forum such as yours.
You're quite welcome. I interpret this as your resignation and I shall now file you under voluntarily banned.
I wish you well.
Quote: gr8playerNo problem, Wizard, as I wish not to remain where unwanted. No hard feelings, and I do wish to thank you for the opportunity to be active in a wonderful forum such as yours.
I hope that no one harbors any ill-will towards me, as I surely hold no grudges towards anyone here. It's all good...
As always, and forever, I wish you all the very best of it.
Stay well, my friends. (Yes, AxiomOfChoice, I said it, aloud this one last time: MY FRIENDS.)
gr8,
I wish you well also; thank you for your gracious exit.
Quote: gr8playerNo problem, Wizard, as I wish not to remain where unwanted. No hard feelings, and I do wish to thank you for the opportunity to be active in a wonderful forum such as yours.
I hope that no one harbors any ill-will towards me, as I surely hold no grudges towards anyone here. It's all good...
As always, and forever, I wish you all the very best of it.
Stay well, my friends. (Yes, AxiomOfChoice, I said it, aloud this one last time: MY FRIENDS.)
It's too bad a compromise couldn't have been reached where you would tone down the things that offended the very tolerant people on this forum. I'd like to read posts from you about things other than baccarat. Things about casinos, trip reports etc.
Let's see how long they keep talking about you now that you're gone. It took more than a year to get over Jerry, mrjjj and mkl. It's a sad day when someone is forced off the forum like this.
I actually met a Jew who was, technically speaking, a Holocaust denier. By no means did he intend to make the persecution of Jews respectable. On the contrary. He simply had issues with the technical possibility. (And, to be sure, I didn't agree with him. But it made for interesting counterfactual historical discussions.)Quote: NareedHolocaust deniers are antisemitic bastards who want to make the persecution of Jews, and others to boot, respectable again. That does not come close to people giving bad gambling advice.
Quote: WizardThank you. This is exactly how I feel.
For those who have experience at other forums, how do other forums devoted to a particular topic handle this problem? Maybe this is a bad comparison, but what would a forum on Judaism do with a Holocaust denier who was otherwise polite, well-spoken, and obeyed forum rules?
Some forums are wide open, and others have very serious rules of discussion that will earn you a time out or a ban on the first offense.
In my experience, the forums that have tighter rules are better than the ones with loose rules.
I can understand the desire to ban patently bad information (betting systems that are easily disproven mathematically, for example).
The DI threads fascinate me. I don't buy it, but some folks obviously think they can throw the dice in a way that is something other than random. This belief cannot be disproven mathematically without tremendous time & effort.
Quote: kubikulannI actually met a Jew who was, technically speaking, a Holocaust denier. By no means did he intend to make the persecution of Jews respectable. On the contrary. He simply had issues with the technical possibility. (And, to be sure, I didn't agree with him. But it made for interesting counterfactual historical discussions.)
Adolf Hitler was part Jewish (on his mother's side). Denial is a powerful thing.
Quote: TerribleTomThe DI threads fascinate me. I don't buy it, but some folks obviously think they can throw the dice in a way that is something other than random. This belief cannot be disproven mathematically without tremendous time & effort.
Anyone who's ever seen a well-executed whip shot or done a blanket roll on the carpet knows that dice control (or influence) is possible. Sliding the dice is a degenerate case of the whip shot and sliding clearly influences the distribution. So whether dice control is possible at all isn't really the question. The question is whether anyone can throw the dice in a way that imparts influence *and* is allowed by the casino during a regulated craps game for money. That's what keeps people coming back to the discussion.
Quote: skrbornevryminAdolf Hitler was Jewish. Denial is a powerful thing.
And that's why comparing something so trivial like betting systems to the Holocaust is a bad idea. You get false, nonsense statements like that one, or nitpicking on the irrelvant points of Holocaust denial.
Does anyone care to comapre side bets to ethnic cleanisng? Or should we perhaps get a little perspective here?
Quote: NareedAnd that's why comparing something so trivial like betting systems to the Holocaust is a bad idea. You get false, nonsense statements like that one, or nitpicking on the irrelvant points of Holocaust denial.
Does anyone care to comapre side bets to ethnic cleanisng? Or should we perhaps get a little perspective here?
Just because someone makes an analogy that was obviously strictly for the purpose of showing a relationship dynamic,
Judaism Board : Holocaust Deniers :: Gambling Board : Betting System Pedalers
Does not mean they are saying the two sides of that analogy are of equal worldly importance. And I think everyone probably realizes that, except you I guess.
**Is anyone thinking that was way to easy?** No way a guy who has dedicated years of his life to system trolling gives up that easy. No hard feelings? I would be afraid very afraid.
As if people don't have multiple accounts.
Forced out? No he could have just stopped talking about his Bunk system. But that was his only agenda, He said the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again he would never offer one bit of evidence he even played Bac.
I just hope they make this retroactive. Anyone who has ever made claims they know someone with, or they have or had a "winning system" get a 2 week suspension and a nuke warning if they bring it up again.
Can anyone think of someone like that?
I do think a person should be allowed to claim they have a wining system, if they are willing to put it to the test and back it up with money on the line. I respect that, even if the system is bunk. This way we can all see just how foolish it is. They then would have to admit It failed. This way they actually have to risk something. No more free advertising in order to get suckers, sucked in. Same goes for DI, prove it or stop talking about it. If they don't want to prove it in fear people or casinos will find out then you should not be talking about it in the first place.
If they want credit for a supposed system they have then they can just make a simple post saying remember me when I'm rich and famous for this system. then explain your system and stop talking about it.
Quote: NareedDoes anyone care to comapre side bets to ethnic cleanisng?
I wasn't comparing them. For example, if the statement "1 is to 1,000 what one million is to one billion" does not imply that 1=one million.
Advocating a betting system should have restrictions. They should be required to at least acknowledge that their system does not work when it is inevitably pointed out, to prevent anything misleading from remaining on the board. Treat it as commercial speech, where deception is prohibited.
Insults should be given wider latitude, against the OP. To drive the point home.
Betting system users may come here to learn, and may have trouble letting go. Why prohibit the learning experience? There might be other value in discussing betting systems. Maybe I can learn why that drunken idiot next to me tried to take a swing at me when I went to two hands and he didn't win his side bets. This is a gambling website. As an AP, even I acknowledge that betting systems are intrinsic to gambling.
Selling or requesting investment in a betting system (not an AP method) should be absolutely prohibited.
Quote: SonuvabishSelling or requesting investment in a betting system (not an AP method) should be absolutely prohibited.
Using this site to sell anything, unless with prior permission, is prohibited. Two things that will result in an immediate nuke are system selling under any circumstances and if a member's first post is commercial spam.
Quote: Sonuvabish
Advocating a betting system should have restrictions. They should be required to at least acknowledge that their system does not work .
LOL good luck with that. Have you seen the way these system pedalers act when told they are wrong.. Or even worse, when they are asked to back it up with proof, or evidence.
I believe most of these people could go broke and all the while still swear by their system.
Quote: WizardUsing this site to sell anything, unless with prior permission, is prohibited. Two things that will result in an immediate nuke are system selling under any circumstances and if a member's first post is commercial spam.
Yes, I believe I read that at some point now that you mention it. However, I also believe that asking for investment is not an auto-nuke...and I would classify it as the same thing, a scam.
As 1BB mentions, perhaps changing the Betting System thread to Voodoo and adding a disclaimer (and moving posts) is the solution here, if it is your good name that is the concern. I never read any of gr8's posts, but if he was refusing to acknowledge his system didn't work and led a campaign of deceptive posts, it would have called for a ban in my book.
Quote: skrbornevryminAdolf Hitler was part Jewish (on his mother's side). Denial is a powerful thing.
The claim is on his father's side, but is unsubstantiated. He may have had Jewish heritage, but he wasn't Jewish. Same way I may have Viking Heritage, but I am not a Viking.
As gr8player, he may or may not have had a 53% strike rate.
However, over the samples he was talking about, it was not proof of anything. I contend he was unable to do basic probability mathematics and failed to understand half of the Maths he quoted and said he used.
I have no idea of his parentage, though.
Quote: WizardI wasn't comparing them.
Over the last 18 months, unfortunately, I've had occasion to learn much of what makes you angry. Let me tell you one thing that makes me angry: when someone does something bordering on insensitive, and then denies having done so.
Talking Holocaust denial to Jews is a very hostile act on a level that does not compare to talking about betting systems here, no matter how angry you get when people discuss mathematical nonsense as if it were serious. If you'd said "How about a Ravens fan promoting Baltimore at a Steelers forum?" That woulda have been on the same level of antagonism we're talking about.
Quote: NareedTalking Holocaust denial to Jews is a very hostile act on a level that does not compare to talking about betting systems here, no matter how angry you get when people discuss mathematical nonsense as if it were serious.
I never claimed the level of hostility was the same, and even prefaced my remark with "Maybe this is a bad comparison." However, I think it is possible to have a discussion about the merits of free speech using Holocaust denial as an example, without being accused of being insensitive about it.
I might add that Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany.
Title something like "Winning Casino Play". Yes the title could be confused as to player's winning, but means, Casino winning (in very small print at the bottom).
Quote: AxelWolfSomeone mentioned Gr8player does not have a large enough sample size. Oh but he does, he lost over 250k from what he has told us. He then revised his system to work better. Revisions are as follows: Bet less per hand and red chip it.
I was actually curious about this -- that's why I asked him for his biggest loss ever. I had heard rumors of this $250k loss, but I don't think I ever heard it directly from him.
FWIW, he replied that the most he ever lost in a night was $12k. And he claimed that he lowered his bets since then, and is black chip now (not sure if that is min or max)
Also, he had claimed to have a negative progression, without explaining exactly what it was.
Quote: gr8playerI hope that no one harbors any ill-will towards me, as I surely hold no grudges towards anyone here. It's all good...
Looking at the poll results, it appears that you won the vote, but lost the election on a technicality. (Al Gore sends his sympathies.)
gr8player, I trust you'll find a more receptive venue for discussion. Silence is not an option :)
Best wishes.
Quote: NareedOver the last 18 months, unfortunately, I've had occasion to learn much of what makes you angry. Let me tell you one thing that makes me angry: when someone does something bordering on insensitive, and then denies having done so.
Talking Holocaust denial to Jews is a very hostile act on a level that does not compare to talking about betting systems here, no matter how angry you get when people discuss mathematical nonsense as if it were serious. If you'd said "How about a Ravens fan promoting Baltimore at a Steelers forum?" That woulda have been on the same level of antagonism we're talking about.
Are you Jewish? I'm not and unsurprisingly, I was not offended.
Yes, it was a poor analogy, mainly because they have nothing in common besides being wrong. No, it does not equate to insensitivity or call for anger. If the issue truly upsets you for some legitimate reason (that appears lacking), then simply mentioning that would suffice. Quit carrying on, you expect respect for that behavior?
Quote: MathExtremistAnyone who's ever seen a well-executed whip shot or done a blanket roll on the carpet knows that dice control (or influence) is possible. Sliding the dice is a degenerate case of the whip shot and sliding clearly influences the distribution. So whether dice control is possible at all isn't really the question. The question is whether anyone can throw the dice in a way that imparts influence *and* is allowed by the casino during a regulated craps game for money. That's what keeps people coming back to the discussion.
Agreed. You can influence the dice, but I'm skeptical that you can do it with a legal roll at a craps table.
The threads on this topic are some of my faves.
Quote: djatcI'm convinced systems players are addicts that need to justify the action.
Probably true for most of them.
Quote: djatcI'm convinced systems players are addicts that need to justify the action.
Agreed.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
Also, he had claimed to have a negative progression, without explaining exactly what it was.
He said somewhere to search for "gr8player progression"
http://www.rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=5010.0
Looks like a delayed d'alembert.
Quote: gr8playerNo problem, Wizard, as I wish not to remain where unwanted. No hard feelings, and I do wish to thank you for the opportunity to be active in a wonderful forum such as yours.
I hope that no one harbors any ill-will towards me, as I surely hold no grudges towards anyone here. It's all good...
As always, and forever, I wish you all the very best of it.
Stay well, my friends. (Yes, AxiomOfChoice, I said it, aloud this one last time: MY FRIENDS.)
His fanciful Victorian style posts did no harm and they sparked lively debate.
One thing is certain.
He provided a lot of +EV (Entertainment Value), and it leaves with him.
I even simulated the thing. Take this with a shaker full of salt: it's not bad. Especially on a 1:1ish game like baccarat with a low HE. It does a bang up job getting small consistent wins and longer playing sessions. Yeah the big losses are there, but if you made me play baccarat and pick between it, a Marty, and a D'alembert I would go with his.Quote: wudgedHe said somewhere to search for "gr8player progression"
http://www.rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=5010.0
Looks like a delayed d'alembert.
Quote: endermikeI even simulated the thing. Take this with a shaker full of salt: it's not bad. Especially on a 1:1ish game like baccarat with a low HE. It does a bang up job getting small consistent wins and longer playing sessions. Yeah the big losses are there, but if you made me play baccarat and pick between it, a Marty, and a D'alembert I would go with his.
Really? You are willing to risk that much money to walk away with a sum that you don't really care about?
Personally, if I'm going to play a -EV game, I want a shot (obviously, not a good one) of walking away with a significant amount of money while risking an amount that I don't care about.
My main problem with these negative progressions is that they take advantage of the way that the human brain is wired (ie, to be bad at math). The trick people into thinking that they have a winning system. All that is left is to come up with excuses for the large losses. "I went on tilt". "I didn't bet like I was supposed to". "I made some mistakes". Take your pick. The large losses are infrequent enough that they can be explained away as flukes to the uninformed.
Let's face it; if you tell people that you have won the last 30 times you went to the casino, they are unlikely to think that it's just luck. No one is that lucky, right? Forget the fact that those 30 winning trips don't make up for the loss 31 trips ago; that was just a fluke and I've changed my betting system since then anyway. That is what makes these things so dangerous... they are just so believable if you don't understand math (and, most people don't understand math).
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceReally? You are willing to risk that much money to walk away with a sum that you don't really care about?
Quote: endermike, bolding addedYeah the big losses are there, but if you made me play baccarat and pick between it, a Marty, and a D'alembert I would go with his.
