Vagrants at Palace Station

I received a comp'd room for Palace Station and went to stay there. I played craps all night and ran into the same thing I ran into last time. Vagrants who are looking for handouts next to me at the table and following me up to the room.

Next to me at the table, the instant I walk up I am asked by the guy to my right, "do you smoke." I thought he wanted a light, so I said "no but she does" and he proceeds to ask her for a smoke in the least possible polite way. Don't get me wrong, I am not against bumming smokes .. but at least learn how to be polite about it.

The same guy later runs out of money and asks me to spot him a 5-dollar pass line bet. I was ignoring him the entire time up to that and not responding to his "hey buddy" blah blah crap. He was drinking some strong alcohol from a thermos that he brought with him. He was vocalizing all kinds of low-life crap and generally annoying everyone.

Then on the way up to the room, someone walking behind us (who also is obviously a vagrant) asks, "can you do me a favor."

I was already done with all that crap. I said "we're going up to the room. No."

Don't plan on going back there.

You would think that the security there would toss these guys out after identifying them, but for whatever reason, it's part of the atmosphere there.

Man, just reading that gives me the creeps.

This will be read at Stations. Good.

Maybe a change of venue for WOVCon will be in order.

I didn't know that was you, aahigh! If I had known it was you, I'd have shared some of my thermos with you!!

I don't often go to Reno but when I did a few years back I stayed at Harrah's. I had pretty much the same experience (playing between about 10:00pm and 3:00am) and I asked myself the same question about why the casino didn't seem to be doing anything about it. I guess it's just the mind set of management depending on where you stay... I certainly didn't have this kind of experience at the Bellagio or Wynn.

Quote: TheNightfly

I don't often go to Reno but when I did a few years back I stayed at Harrah's. I had pretty much the same experience (playing between about 10:00pm and 3:00am) and I asked myself the same question about why the casino didn't seem to be doing anything about it. I guess it's just the mind set of management depending on where you stay... I certainly didn't have this kind of experience at the Bellagio or Wynn.

I'd have to agree onmindset of management. No different than having a clean restroom. I never understood why any business lets vagrants and annoying drunks hang out and bother the paying customers. If they can't keep the panhandlers out, how clean is the kitchen? Then again, maybe it falls "in between" the responsibilities of the pit boss and security so no one bothers.

I believe one casino in Reno filed for bankruptcy, others are on the verge of failing. Some casinos are more valuable for their real estate than their gaming license and are therefore assets that are "in play" so law enforcement in the area is performed with a view towards its effect on real estate values.

He actually offered me a drink from his Thermos. He also joked with the dealers about the contents of the thermos.

Also, I'm not sure what he did, but after he bummed 5 bucks to shoot the dice, he left the table with one dollar on the rack and said "hold my place" while he was gone for 10 minutes .. and the dealers actually held his place while other people wanted to come in. Then he comes back with a five dollar bill and gets a red chip, gets a red chip and continues to play.

I lived in Santa Monica for over a year. I walked 1/8th of a mile to work from Ocean Avenue to 3rd Street promenaded every day passing at least 6-7 homeless people, and I consider myself to be very educated about the various lifestyles of people who either are unable to work or simply choose not to work. This guy was probably late twenties, early thirties, and was plenty physically fit and well enough to have a different lifestyle that was less obtrusive towards the well being of those in the general vicinity of others around him. IE, he was comfortable being a leech. I couldn't tell just by looking that he was this type of person. But after the 5 seconds it was obvious.

And honestly, it's not about this person. It fits a pattern of what I expect at Station Casino. That's really the reason I am posting up here. This is 2-for-2 and last time it was the same thing. Last time, though, it was someone picking up a win of mine in the field insisting that it was theirs. I was 100% certain it was mine and this guy would not back down. The dealers gave me an extra amount of my bet plus my win, but it's not about the money. It's about having to share space with people that have no regards for being human, much less polite enough to create a positive experience while being entertained with the game of Craps.

I had other issues there too, but all of them fell under the same general issue of being totally disappointed with the overall experience.

(1) I had the wife and two kids with me and when we went up to the room it had a single king bed .. we waited 45 minutes to get the correct double queen and we made it really clear we wanted to two queens .. it was the ONLY requirement that we stated.
(2) the buffet was advertised as $4.99 for breakfast, but at the very bottom was $8.99 for sunday brunch and dinner .. of course we have the unfortunate experience of learning that after seeing the bill rather than noticing the details about brunch in small print at the bottom
(3) there were no comps at all on the meal .. not sure how their comps work, but they said i had no comps available for food
(4) room service is marked up 50% from the price in the cafe
(5) $15 fee for basic stuff that should be free

the list goes on . . . it's sad .. and I know the economy is suffering, but they won't be having me spend time trying to help them figure out how to make customers happy. These things should be obvious, but I guess there is a niche for every type of customer, and they seem to cater to the low-life and the stupid.

Quote: aahigh

He actually offered me a drink from his Thermos. He also joked with the dealers about the contents of the thermos.

.

I thought it was illegal in Vegas to bring drinks in your own container into a casino. If you bought it at another casino its OK, but not in something that you obviously brought from home.

While I haven't come across a situation like that the few times I've been in Vegas - come east to Atlantic City during the winter months. The Boardwalk casinos usually have their regulars hanging out inside to stay warm sometimes. The attitude is similar though - I think the casinos feel that even vagrants deserve a chance to use their last 2 cents to add to the bottom line.

-B

Quote: aahigh

I lived in Santa Monica for over a year. I walked 1/8th of a mile to work from Ocean Avenue to 3rd Street promenaded every day passing at least 6-7 homeless people, and I consider myself to be very educated about the various lifestyles of people who either are unable to work or simply choose not to work. This guy was probably late twenties, early thirties, and was plenty physically fit and well enough to have a different lifestyle that was less obtrusive towards the well being of those in the general vicinity of others around him. IE, he was comfortable being a leech. I couldn't tell just by looking that he was this type of person. But after the 5 seconds it was obvious.

The presumptive nature of statements like this is truly breathtaking.

You "consider yourself to be very educated"---based on what? Who educated you in the craft of instant lifestyle evaluation? How did you develop the steely-eyed acumen to not only divine what a person's lifestyle is, but also whether they aren't working, and why? Sounds almost like a superpower, given that you can take such measurements in a few seconds.

The guy you observed was, as you put it, "physically fit and well enough". Really? You could tell that just by looking at him? And you could tell that he was of completely sound mind? That he had no personality disorders? And you knew he "was comfortable being a leech"? How do you know he WAS a "leech", as you put it, and even if so, how did you know he was "comfortable" with it?

Then you go on to say that "you couldn't tell just by looking", after making all those statements that said that you COULD tell. Then after five seconds "it was obvious". Since you couldn't tell just by looking, how did you discern in those five seconds every relevant thing about that person, including that he was an undeserving "leech"?

Not everyone who's homeless is someone who is of perfectly sound mind and body, and has just "chosen" that "lifestyle" because he's a lazy good-for-nothing. In point of fact, once a person does hit the streets for whatever reason, it's awfully hard for that person to get off the streets. Give YOU (worthy hardworking soul that you are) no place to live, to wash, to change clothes, to receive a phone call, or receive mail, and make you flat broke as well, and you'd have one hell of a time recovering from that situation. Throw in a mental or personality disorder, and such a person may never get off the street at all. It's rarely a "lifestyle choice" to be homeless, and I'm sick of hearing people say that it is to justify their lack of empathy.

Like this message board, it's all a live and learn situation. You find out who is who and who is worth your time, and you avoid the people and places you don't like. I am sorry to have gotten your attention.

Quote: mkl654321

The presumptive nature of statements like this is truly breathtaking.

You "consider yourself to be very educated"---based on what? Who educated you in the craft of instant lifestyle evaluation? How did you develop the steely-eyed acumen to not only divine what a person's lifestyle is, but also whether they aren't working, and why? Sounds almost like a superpower, given that you can take such measurements in a few seconds.

The guy you observed was, as you put it, "physically fit and well enough". Really? You could tell that just by looking at him? And you could tell that he was of completely sound mind? That he had no personality disorders? And you knew he "was comfortable being a leech"? How do you know he WAS a "leech", as you put it, and even if so, how did you know he was "comfortable" with it?

Then you go on to say that "you couldn't tell just by looking", after making all those statements that said that you COULD tell. Then after five seconds "it was obvious". Since you couldn't tell just by looking, how did you discern in those five seconds every relevant thing about that person, including that he was an undeserving "leech"?

Not everyone who's homeless is someone who is of perfectly sound mind and body, and has just "chosen" that "lifestyle" because he's a lazy good-for-nothing. In point of fact, once a person does hit the streets for whatever reason, it's awfully hard for that person to get off the streets. Give YOU (worthy hardworking soul that you are) no place to live, to wash, to change clothes, to receive a phone call, or receive mail, and make you flat broke as well, and you'd have one hell of a time recovering from that situation. Throw in a mental or personality disorder, and such a person may never get off the street at all. It's rarely a "lifestyle choice" to be homeless, and I'm sick of hearing people say that it is to justify their lack of empathy.

To add one more statement, my calling attention to my experience with the homeless was trying to suggest my compassion for them, not that I have a blanket disdain for them.

What I have a disdain for, and something you may consider for further introspection, is those who do not care to what extent they intrude on others' who are attempting to enjoy some entertainment with some intruder saying something akin to

"spare any change."

or otherwise switching gears from having a good time to become defensive and covering your wallet and wondering where the exits are and where security is.

Quote: aahigh

To add one more statement, my calling attention to my experience with the homeless was trying to suggest my compassion for them, not that I have a blanket disdain for them.

What I have a disdain for, and something you may consider for further introspection, is those who do not care to what extent they intrude on others' who are attempting to enjoy some entertainment with some intruder saying something akin to

"spare any change."

or otherwise switching gears from having a good time to become defensive and covering your wallet and wondering where the exits are and where security is.

The casino is a public place. Your presence may be just as bothersome to that "vagrant" as his is to you. He has as much right to be there as you do. He also has the right to say something to you if he wishes. You have the right to respond or not as you see fit. Unfortunately, in public areas, we don't usually get to triage our encounters to only those individuals whom we want to see.

If the casino decides to exclude that person (or you, for that matter), it can do so for cause. For whatever reason, it didn't do that with the beggar, not that day you were visiting.

Quote: mkl654321

. He has as much right to be there as you do. He also has the right to say something to you if he wishes. .

He can legally panhandle on private property in Vegas? Are you sure about that?

Quote: EvenBob

He can legally panhandle on private property in Vegas? Are you sure about that?

Casinos have been judged in court to be "public spaces". Expectations of privacy and rules of behavior, as well as who can and cannot be excluded, are different than in strictly private locales.

Quote: mkl654321

Casinos have been judged in court to be "public spaces". Expectations of privacy and rules of behavior, as well as who can and cannot be excluded, are different than in strictly private locales.

So he can legally panhandle on private property, is that what you believe?

Quote: EvenBob

So he can legally panhandle on private property, is that what you believe?

I can't wait to get my tin cup out for my next trip to the Wynn. I have a nice Coleman 8 person tent I may bring.

Quote: EvenBob

So he can legally panhandle on private property, is that what you believe?

Bob, are you that obtuse today? I just explained how casinos have been ruled to be public spaces. They may be private property, but they are also public spaces. Public spaces, Bob. Different rules. It has nothing to do with what I "believe". Please don't be a jerk about that.

There is also--again, by law--a difference between what you call "panhandling" and simply asking someone for money. I'm not going to explain that one for you--look it up.

So no, a person can't legally panhandle on private proprty, unless that property is also a public space--which a casino is.

Please consider the above without recourse to your prejudices and beliefs.

Quote: mkl654321

So no, a person can't legally panhandle on private proprty, unless that property is also a public space--which a casino is.

So you can legally panhandle in the Wynn and theres nothing they can do about it, is that what you believe?

Quote: EvenBob

So you can legally panhandle in the Wynn and theres nothing they can do about it, is that what you believe?

I'll say it one last time, Bob--what I "believe" has nothing to do with it. For that matter, what YOU "believe" has nothing to do with it. And I already explained that there is a legal difference between "panhandling" and simply asking someone for money.

The Wynn is a public space. Any person may lawfully enter. Any person may speak to any other person therein. Clear? Probably not.

Quote: mkl654321

The Wynn is a public space. Any person may lawfully enter. Any person may speak to any other person therein. .

So theres nothing the Wynn can do to stop someone from panhandling in their casino? Is that what you're saying?

Its still better than Jerry's Nugget up in North Vegas...

Quote: discflicker

Its still better than Jerry's Nugget up in North Vegas...

Never been there. Some casinos know that their customers are selling crack. Other casinos know that their customers are the ones who use crack. Either way, the casinos seem to be a bit flexible on the clientele. In bad economic times, women are more prevalent in and around casinos. In good economic times, the casinos can afford to chase off the worst of the hookers. I think its pretty much the same thing with the gamblers. If a guy panhandles outside and then comes in to the casino for a twenty dollar buy-in, the casino focuses on the twenty dollars not the panhandler's personal hygiene issues.
Security guards may not know the difference between a stylish rumpled suit and simply a bum who slept in his clothes all night. Dealers know the difference... and sometimes anyone downwind knows the difference.

Quote: Wavy70

I can't wait to get my tin cup out for my next trip to the Wynn. I have a nice Coleman 8 person tent I may bring.

Just don't do that in a public space like the Fremont Street Experience:

"January 1995--Approval and passage of solicitation ordinances, including a complete prohibition of panhandling within the Fremont Street Experience once the project becomes substantially complete."

Quote: mkl654321

The Wynn is a public space. Any person may lawfully enter. Any person may speak to any other person therein. Clear? Probably not.

What you say isn't clear because it's really not accurate. Cities can and have passed laws prohibiting panhandling in public places. Of course people can generally "speak" to one another in a public place, but the example that started this thread was that of someone asking for money. Panhandling is typically defined as accosting someone and asking them for money. Approaching someone in a public place, like at the craps table, and asking for money could reasonably fall within the definition of panhandling. That being said, I really have no idea what the law is in Las Vegas or the surrounding areas. However, I find it hard to believe that security at the Wynn, for example, could not remove someone who was approaching other guests and asking for money.

Quote: SanchoPanza

"January 1995--Approval and passage of solicitation ordinances, including a complete prohibition of panhandling within the Fremont Street Experience once the project becomes substantially complete."

I'm sure you're wrong. MKL says you can panhandle with impunity anywhere in Vegas, even in the Wynn casino.

Can't they just "tresspass" someone, like with card-counters?

Quote: P90

Can't they just "tresspass" someone, like with card-counters?

Shhhhh! MKL thinks they can panhandle with impunity, don't burst his bubble.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm sure you're wrong. MKL says you can panhandle with impunity anywhere in Vegas, even in the Wynn casino.

Don't be silly not at the Wynn. But at the Encore I use the same outfit Eddie Murphy had in Trading Places. I drag my lil cart in front of XS and pull in a few hundred a night.

Quote: Wavy70

Don't be silly not at the Wynn. But at the Encore I use the same outfit Eddie Murphy had in Trading Places. I drag my lil cart in front of XS and pull in a few hundred a night.

I'm diggin it, man, I'm groovin on your action..

Quote: mkl654321

The Wynn is a public space. Any person may lawfully enter. Any person may speak to any other person therein. Clear? Probably not.

The Wynn is a public space? I dunno, I think the Wynn corporation thinks they own it. That would make it a private space, and they can invite or disinvite patrons, such as panhandlers, vagrants, and card counters.

Quote: Mosca

The Wynn is a public space? I dunno, I think the Wynn corporation thinks they own it. That would make it a private space, and they can invite or disinvite patrons, such as panhandlers, vagrants, and card counters.

As a completely private space, couldn't they allow only certain people in? I will play the race card for simplicity. The casino could say North American whites only. Ignore the business side of that policy. That would reflect pretty poorly on Vegas. So, Vegas passes a regulation that declares all casinos as public spaces. Now race discrimination, or any discrimination for that matter, is illegal. However, they then give the casinos a wildcard. They are allowed to ask anyone to leave, for any reason. And apparently, they can tell anyone they are no longer welcome back. So that tells me the casino is not really the exact same as 'public space'. It is treated like public space, but the casino has certain controls over that space.

So the casino has the right to tell me my play is too good, and I am no longer welcome. I have no recourse.
The casino says I am a smelly person, and am upsetting other customers, so I am no longer welcome. Do I have any recourse?
The casino says I am panhandling against the rules, therefore I am tresspassed, and will be arrested if I come back in. do I have any recourse?
The casino says I am Canadian and am not welcome any more. Do I have any recourse?
The casino says I am black, and therefore not welcome any more. Do I have any recourse?

Quote: RaleighCraps

So the casino has the right to tell me my play is too good, and I am no longer welcome. I have no recourse.
The casino says I am a smelly person, and am upsetting other customers, so I am no longer welcome. Do I have any recourse?
The casino says I am panhandling against the rules, therefore I am tresspassed, and will be arrested if I come back in. do I have any recourse?
The casino says I am Canadian and am not welcome any more. Do I have any recourse?
The casino says I am black, and therefore not welcome any more. Do I have any recourse?

There's a difference between being discriminate and "discrimination". If you get kicked out of a publicly-accessible, privately-owned property like a casino or mall because you're a member of a protected class (e.g. black, Canadian), your federal rights have been violated. There are no civil rights around hygiene, panhandling, or card counting, so if a casino trespasses you for not showering or panhandling, you're on your own.

You cannot deny groups, but you can deny individuals. If you show a pattern (racial, ethnic, sex, etc), then it's discrimination. But you can toss any one person you want.

Edit: LOL @ Canadians as a protected class....

Quote: MathExtremist

There's a difference between being discriminate and "discrimination". If you get kicked out of a publicly-accessible, privately-owned property like a casino or mall because you're a member of a protected class (e.g. black, Canadian), your federal rights have been violated. There are no civil rights around hygiene, panhandling, or card counting, so if a casino trespasses you for not showering or panhandling, you're on your own.

So the casino has the right to ask anyone to leave, as long as the reason does not violate the federal rights of the person.

Quote: Mosca

Edit: LOL @ Canadians as a protected class....

It sounds funny when you say it like that, but "national origin" is one of the federal criteria.

Quote: RaleighCraps

So the casino has the right to ask anyone to leave, as long as the reason does not violate the federal rights of the person.

I'm pretty sure that's the case. The casino can ask anyone to leave, period; the question is whether any rights are violated in the process (not necessarily federal). It's still private property. There is a presumption that everyone is allowed inside when they throw open the doors to the public, but that doesn't mean that everyone gets to stay inside.

Quote: MathExtremist

I'm pretty sure that's the case. The casino can ask anyone to leave, period; the question is whether any rights are violated in the process (not necessarily federal). It's still private property.

True.

Unfortunately in the current legal climate, both civil and regulatory, it would be casinos are at risk for being sued if they throw someone out. I'd say bothering other customers is good grounds for revoking someone's right to enter a casino (or a restaurant, store, etc). I mean actively bothering them, as in harrasment, panhandling inside the casino, and stuff like that.

Quote: Nareed

Unfortunately in the current legal climate, both civil and regulatory, it would be casinos are at risk for being sued if they throw someone out

I doubt if anything other than being lazy is what's going on with security and management

The public space thing has me thinking.

Perhaps the casino has the same public designation as a shopping mall. After all, the stores and restaraunts in most (all?) casinos are privately managed, paying rent. That being the case, the casino floor is separate from the walkway around it. Therefore, if you kick someone out of the casino, that person may have a legal right to stand on the edge of the carpet - along the same dividing line that keeps minors out.

As far as a casino's public image goes, what's the lesser of the two evils? A bum hanging around a craps table, or a bum sitting on the edge of the carpet with a sign of some sort?

I can see it now. A casino tries to throw a bum out. The ACLU gets all over it and wins. The next thing you know, the porn slappers are inside the casino.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm sure you're wrong. MKL says you can panhandle with impunity anywhere in Vegas, even in the Wynn casino.

There is nothing prohibiting cities passing ordinances regarding SPECIFIC places. And Bob, I also pointed out to you that "panhandling" CAN be prohibited in public spaces by ordinance. But you failed to read that for comprehension--again.

Quote: Mosca

The Wynn is a public space? I dunno, I think the Wynn corporation thinks they own it. That would make it a private space, and they can invite or disinvite patrons, such as panhandlers, vagrants, and card counters.

That was my whole point. Certain private properties are also public spaces. I'd go over the relevant law, but it would take quite a while.

Quote: WestSider

What you say isn't clear because it's really not accurate. Cities can and have passed laws prohibiting panhandling in public places. Of course people can generally "speak" to one another in a public place, but the example that started this thread was that of someone asking for money. Panhandling is typically defined as accosting someone and asking them for money. Approaching someone in a public place, like at the craps table, and asking for money could reasonably fall within the definition of panhandling. That being said, I really have no idea what the law is in Las Vegas or the surrounding areas. However, I find it hard to believe that security at the Wynn, for example, could not remove someone who was approaching other guests and asking for money.

What I said was very accurate. There is no law prohibiting the public from entering or being inside the Wynn. There may be a law prohibiting some kinds of panhandling in general in public spaces in Las Vegas, but there's a difference between "panhandling" and simply being present; there's a difference between asking someone for money (which is legal) and "aggressive panhandling" (which is not).

It is ultimately a matter for the courts to decide, but a person entering a public space (the target of the person asking for money) has a diminished expectation of privacy, because of that public space. Presently, IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY SPECIFIC LAW TO THE CONTRARY, one person in that public space can ask another for the time, for directions, or for money, without breaking the law.

Quote: mkl654321

Presently, IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY SPECIFIC LAW TO THE CONTRARY, one person in that public space can ask another for the time, for directions, or for money, without breaking the law.

Asking for the time or for directions is entirely different from asking for money, as the Fremont Street case amply demonstrates.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Asking for the time or for directions is entirely different from asking for money, as the Fremont Street case amply demonstrates.

1. What, exactly, was the "Fremont Street Case"?
2. How did it establish precedent or practice in the overall body of law? Or was it simply one court ruling?

Quote: mkl654321

What I said was very accurate. There is no law prohibiting the public from entering or being inside the Wynn. There may be a law prohibiting some kinds of panhandling in general in public spaces in Las Vegas, but there's a difference between "panhandling" and simply being present; there's a difference between asking someone for money (which is legal) and "aggressive panhandling" (which is not).

It is ultimately a matter for the courts to decide, but a person entering a public space (the target of the person asking for money) has a diminished expectation of privacy, because of that public space. Presently, IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY SPECIFIC LAW TO THE CONTRARY, one person in that public space can ask another for the time, for directions, or for money, without breaking the law.

So, let me get this straight-I can go into the Wynn and ask Steve Wynn for cash and there is nothing he can do about it until the city (Henderson?) passes a law againstg panhandling because the casino is a "public space?"

A casino can be a private property AND a public space, at the same time. Public space does not mean public ownership.

Quote: thecesspit

A casino can be a private property AND a public space, at the same time. Public space does not mean public ownership.

MKL seems to think it does, and with his wealth of knowlege on the subject can we doubt that? Or could he have merely talked his way into a corner he cannot get out of?