MGM not rewarding high rollers?
Quote: MDawgAll this has to do with is “points” such as accumulated by slots players.
Quote: MDawgThe speculation is interesting but as usual considering it perhaps comes from non-players dead wrong. All this has to do with is “points” such as accumulated by slots players. Doesn’t affect whatsoever RFB and related comps in general. Which means that big MGM table game players may still be treated to and indulge in all the free suites Wagyu steak Beluga caviar uni spa event tickets promotions and so on that their play earns - just not necessarily “rewards points.” An effort by MGM to stop “double dipping” into rewards points / comps which some other properties already have this policy in fact at some even more definitively. It somewhat gets back to what a host said to me years ago when my play started ramping up to high roller level - that “points are for the little players.” It’s still all free for the high rollers.
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This makes sense -- to prevent double dipping, collecting comps AND points.
Years ago at Caesars we would convert our points to free play BEFORE our hosts would work their magic of the pen and comp everything. That's how we collected on our points AND got everything comped.
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: MDawgThe speculation is interesting but as usual considering it perhaps comes from non-players dead wrong. All this has to do with is “points” such as accumulated by slots players. Doesn’t affect whatsoever RFB and related comps in general. Which means that big MGM table game players may still be treated to and indulge in all the free suites Wagyu steak Beluga caviar uni spa event tickets promotions and so on that their play earns - just not necessarily “rewards points.” An effort by MGM to stop “double dipping” into rewards points / comps which some other properties already have this policy in fact at some even more definitively. It somewhat gets back to what a host said to me years ago when my play started ramping up to high roller level - that “points are for the little players.” It’s still all free for the high rollers.
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This makes sense -- to prevent double dipping, collecting comps AND points.
Years ago at Caesars we would convert our points to free play BEFORE our hosts would work their magic of the pen and comp everything. That's how we collected on our points AND got everything comped.
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It would make sense if the specific wording wasn't that it would be decided on an individual basis.
If someone has more than $25,000 spend (their words) on a trip then the points accrued should be comparable between any given players.
What need to examine on an individual basis if someone should be excluded from earning points if it's just to "move them to a higher level" as MDawg claims.
It actually implies to me that this decision will be based on something management sees that is disagreeable to them and they wish to put an end to it.
I wrote a little more on the subject in general in my comps thread.
Quote: unJonWhat are reward points?
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Most players clubs have two types of points.
Reward points show your progress towards earning comps.
Tier points show your progress to a higher rating such as Noir or Seven Stars or Chairman.
Quote: darkoz
It would make sense if the specific wording wasn't that it would be decided on an individual basis.
If someone has more than $25,000 spend (their words) on a trip then the points accrued should be comparable between any given players.
It actually implies to me that this decision will be based on something management sees that is disagreeable to them and they wish to put an end to it.
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In my interpretation, MGM doesn't believe that all players with $25,000 spend are comparable. On an individual basis, MGM will probably be giving fewer comps to winning players once they reach a certain level of "gaming activity". MGM finds it "disagreeable" that players who win (or don't lose enough) feel that they are "entitled" to the same level of comps as players who have booked a reasonable loss amount.
Quote: TDVegasNot sure how high rollers have been impacted by new comp rules…but as a low roller local in Las Vegas, virtually every comp has been gutted. Point bonuses, NFL contests, scratch offs, free slot play, prize offers while playing…you name it, A-Z was gutted by Stations. I no longer see cars, ATV, jet skis in the floor. No Napa vacations or cruises. Not that I would win those, but I’m guessing that’s all gone even for Chairman status.
2 things are left. Crappy gift Fridays…although that’s been cut down to twice a month as opposed to 4-5. Multiplier day is still there. Thursday?
Everything else, including all buffet restaurants are basically gone. I used to be able to accumulate 10,000 to 15,000 points per month. Now I’m lucky I get 1,500.
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A bit off-topic, but I think pertinent to the overall squeeze being not just at the top, but at the bottom as well:
I didn’t want to add to this discussion because I don’t play that often any more. But this resonated with me. Borgata is now an MGM property, starting 2022 the switchover has been completed, and our offers have declined precipitously. We, too, are generally low rollers; Mrs plays slots and I play carny games at table minimums, and some slots. We gamble like other people golf, or go to the beach: as a getaway. But offers are a big part of the draw. We like getting the room and the food covered, and the first couple dozen slot chances. We enjoy the illusion of being courted. If that goes away, like it has at our local casino (Mohegan Pocono), honestly we’ll probably stop going. We won’t drive the 10 minutes to go locally; my last offer was $10 in free play after $50 coin in. Before that it was… $7 in free play. I won’t change the channel on the TV for $7. (What an oddly specific number. It’s actually more insulting than just getting a mailer saying, “Come to Mohegan!”, with no offer at all.) But if we stay home and rent a movie because our local offers stink, why would we drive 3 hours for other offers that also stink?
I think what we are seeing here is the application of sophisticated analysis to the gaming industry. Offers are great… but are they profitable? Where is the line? Quite honestly, as a business they should be looking for that line. I might not like it, but if it’s drawn where it should be, then the result will be that I grumble about comps being cut back, but I still plan my trip.
Does Bank of America have high interest rates?
However, online banks commonly offer much higher rates than their brick-and-mortar counterparts. The rates on savings accounts for Bank of America, Chase and Wells Fargo are identical at 0.01% APY, and they're nowhere near the rates online banks like Ally and Vio offer at 0.50% APY or better..- Mar 11, 2022
The Fed just raised interest rates 0.25% a month ago, but I can't find proof yet that banks have gotten off their 0.01% duffs yet and raised it to 0.26%. There's more Fed interest rate hikes in the offing, so comps could make some kind of comeback as banks raise their interest rates on bank accounts.
Quote: MoscaQuote: TDVegasNot sure how high rollers have been impacted by new comp rules…but as a low roller local in Las Vegas, virtually every comp has been gutted. Point bonuses, NFL contests, scratch offs, free slot play, prize offers while playing…you name it, A-Z was gutted by Stations. I no longer see cars, ATV, jet skis in the floor. No Napa vacations or cruises. Not that I would win those, but I’m guessing that’s all gone even for Chairman status.
2 things are left. Crappy gift Fridays…although that’s been cut down to twice a month as opposed to 4-5. Multiplier day is still there. Thursday?
Everything else, including all buffet restaurants are basically gone. I used to be able to accumulate 10,000 to 15,000 points per month. Now I’m lucky I get 1,500.
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A bit off-topic, but I think pertinent to the overall squeeze being not just at the top, but at the bottom as well:
I didn’t want to add to this discussion because I don’t play that often any more. But this resonated with me. Borgata is now an MGM property, starting 2022 the switchover has been completed, and our offers have declined precipitously. We, too, are generally low rollers; Mrs plays slots and I play carny games at table minimums, and some slots. We gamble like other people golf, or go to the beach: as a getaway. But offers are a big part of the draw. We like getting the room and the food covered, and the first couple dozen slot chances. We enjoy the illusion of being courted. If that goes away, like it has at our local casino (Mohegan Pocono), honestly we’ll probably stop going. We won’t drive the 10 minutes to go locally; my last offer was $10 in free play after $50 coin in. Before that it was… $7 in free play. I won’t change the channel on the TV for $7. (What an oddly specific number. It’s actually more insulting than just getting a mailer saying, “Come to Mohegan!”, with no offer at all.) But if we stay home and rent a movie because our local offers stink, why would we drive 3 hours for other offers that also stink?
I think what we are seeing here is the application of sophisticated analysis to the gaming industry. Offers are great… but are they profitable? Where is the line? Quite honestly, as a business they should be looking for that line. I might not like it, but if it’s drawn where it should be, then the result will be that I grumble about comps being cut back, but I still plan my trip.
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Your comps were indeed lowered but it's not Borgata specific.
There was a massive and negative change to MGM comps. This was one reason they revised their rules.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepointsguy.com/news/mgm-m-life-devaluation/amp/
Quote: billryanIt's almost as if some outside economic events were influencing the casinos. They lost months of revenue and are operating under reduced capacity but you expect them to continue their offers as if nothing is going on?
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Actually yes. They should be raising their offers.
Offers are designed to reel in customers. Their customer base has also been affected economically. A person hurting economically might make the trip to the casino if he has decent offers (not necessarily even Freeplay but RFB etc).
Instead casinos are cutting comps. That equates to cutting reasons for customers to come in.
These changes will only stay in place until they analyze how much business is hurting. Then suddenly there will be a flood of offers to reel people in.
All it takes is one property to see how they can snag business with wonderful comps and bang, the comp wars are back
Quote: darkozYour comps were indeed lowered but it's not Borgata specific.
There was a massive and negative change to MGM comps. This was one reason they revised their rules.
Yeah. In January, it was 60% of what it was in August of 2021. Now for June it is 66% of that. They’re obviously searching for that line. But we still get the rooms, as long as we get that we’re still good.
At Borgata, I always played my free play in those $5 WoF machines right by the checkin. More often than not I got a free spin and cashed anywhere from $200 to $1199, usually $400 to $700. I liked that, obviously. And, as a recreational player, it always got played later anyhow.
Quote: billryanIt's almost as if some outside economic events were influencing the casinos. They lost months of revenue and are operating under reduced capacity but you expect them to continue their offers as if nothing is going on?
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I get it, and I agree. But one of the core principles of a strong capitalist economy is that you have to spend money to make money. When I was in business (not as an owner), when times got tough we didn’t cut back advertising, and the manufacturers didn’t cut back rebates. We increased everything.
Quote: darkoz
Actually yes. They should be raising their offers.
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Not if it's more financially advantageous for them not to.
If you won’t patronize my establishment for $7 in free play, but will for $15, do I need you? Do I even want you?
If you won’t patronize my establishment for $7 in free play, but will for $15, do I need you? Do I even want you?
Quote: ChumpChangeSlot clubs in my area zero out your points if there's no activity within 6 months or 12 months. But they don't cancel your card, they just cancel everything on it. But if you were above the bottom tier, you'll probably have to trade-in your higher tier card and start over at the lowest tier.
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MickeyDs does the same thing. I had enough points for three quarter pounders but when I didn’t eat there for a spell, they canceled them out. The basterds.
I earned those points.
Quote: billryanI think the pandemic allowed businesses re-access their plans and casinos are recognizing how wasteful these clubs are. For roughly 40 years casinos thrived without these clubs.
If you won’t patronize my establishment for $7 in free play, but will for $15, do I need you? Do I even want you?
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The best promo Mohegan Sun Pocono ever had was when they teamed up with Refer Local and offered $25 dining credit and $25 free play for $25. You could get two offers per week. I’d get two and Mrs Mosca would get two. It could be combined with other offers. So we’d go eat at The Rustic Kitchen, then lose a couple-three hundred each after blowing through our free play. But Refer Local was in cahoots with Bobby Soper, a local guy, who was also the CEO of Mohegan Pocono. So that got shut down and Bobby was called to Connecticut.
He is now the International President of Mohegan Sun Gaming. But Mohegan Sun Pocono was never better than when he ran it locally. It was a great local casino. Now it’s a glorified bingo hall, with indifferent personnel and lousy maintenance.
I suspect the days of wine and gravy for comp hustlers are over. It was nice while it lasted.
Quote: billryanI suspect the days of wine and gravy for comp hustlers are over. It was nice while it lasted.
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Not from where I am!
Mr. billryan may be right?
tuttigym
For better or worse, casino finances have greatly changed from a generation ago.
For example banks. Many bank branches still haven't reopened-- and they won't.
Insurance offices-- they switched to more online trading.
Many businesses found it was cheaper to let employees work from home.
And the casinos. Fewer dealers, fewer tables, higher minimums and closed buffets and they were packed after the pandemic shutdown.
Some companies made more money keeping some casinos closed -- like Stations.
Years ago these casinos thought they had to lure players with cheap food and comps. After the pandemic they realized the players will come without the free play, the buffets and cheap food.
Yes. Things will get tighter.
The casino itself is no longer the dominant money maker for the resort. Times have changed.
Who is more valuable as a customer? The $50 a hand BJ player who plays 6 hours a day or someone who drops $2500 on bottle service on Friday nite, rented a cabana and spent another $2,000 at the pool party before dinner at the steakhouse and another nite at the club? Why does the BJ player expect a free room and a buffet or so while the other guy is maybe offered the casino rate?
Quote: billryanCasinos are transforming. What was once loss leaders are now profit centers. They are laying out money to venture into the internet.
The casino itself is no longer the dominant money maker for the resort. Times have changed.
Who is more valuable as a customer? The $50 a hand BJ player who plays 6 hours a day or someone who drops $2500 on bottle service on Friday nite, rented a cabana and spent another $2,000 at the pool party before dinner at the steakhouse and another nite at the club? Why does the BJ player expect a free room and a buffet or so while the other guy is maybe offered the casino rate?
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I can only speak for Mrs and I. I enjoy gambling, but can take it or leave it. Mrs really enjoys it, but the pandemic affected her, too: it broke her habit. If the room goes away, we’ll probably stop going completely.
As for playing online: we like the getaway aspect of it. Without that, gambling feels like not wanting your money and throwing it away. Because that’s what playing online feels like.
Quote: MoscaQuote: billryanCasinos are transforming. What was once loss leaders are now profit centers. They are laying out money to venture into the internet.
The casino itself is no longer the dominant money maker for the resort. Times have changed.
Who is more valuable as a customer? The $50 a hand BJ player who plays 6 hours a day or someone who drops $2500 on bottle service on Friday nite, rented a cabana and spent another $2,000 at the pool party before dinner at the steakhouse and another nite at the club? Why does the BJ player expect a free room and a buffet or so while the other guy is maybe offered the casino rate?
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I can only speak for Mrs and I. I enjoy gambling, but can take it or leave it. Mrs really enjoys it, but the pandemic affected her, too: it broke her habit. If the room goes away, we’ll probably stop going completely.
As for playing online: we like the getaway aspect of it. Without that, gambling feels like not wanting your money and throwing it away. Because that’s what playing online feels like.
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The idea would be to cultivate the next generation of gamblers, who don't see the point of driving to a casino. The casino will be in their home and on the phone.
Bilyryan is right about casino companies moving to the Internet. Sands is now advertising for TV people to set up and run a live casino streaming service with live casino gaming online. Adelson when he was alive was opposed to any online gaming. I met him several times because he was related to wife #3. We talked at funerals of her aunts and uncles.
Who is more valuable to the casino -- bottle service customers or BJ players? BJ players are. The clubs are usually not operated by the casino companies and are leased out. So the issue is converting the club crowd to casino players. There is some ancillary revenue from hotels, restaurants and from club leases.
Twenty years ago, hotels would pay entertainers and if they didn't sell tickets they lost on the deal. Now they lease space and get paid upfront, plus a share of the door after a certain number. The old $6.95 loss leader buffet is now a $69.99 per person profit center.
Adapt or die.
15 hours of play a week or so at the 25$ level gets you a room plus a few hundred in freeplay/non-doms, and all your food is covered. Downside, you'll be paying about 300/week/person in taxes and effectively mandatory gratuities, unless you're classified at a higher tier, where you get other perks (in terms of expenses... free gratuities). Combo this with free float and gambling at a discount (Averaging 7% or so, until I ran into flow issues, some 30k in), I'm finding anything a traditional casino can throw at me to be a hard sell. I mean, they even give random junk as gifts that break five minutes later too. (Okay, I probably shouldn't've put 8 bottles of wine into that daybag.)
I'm letting my CET tier rot this year... probably for good.
Perhaps they should but, from my experience over the years, when the casinos are doing poorly, the offers and promotions tend to drop off significantly. The better a casino is doing, the better the offers and promotions tend to get.Quote: darkozQuote: billryanIt's almost as if some outside economic events were influencing the casinos. They lost months of revenue and are operating under reduced capacity but you expect them to continue their offers as if nothing is going on?
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Actually yes. They should be raising their offers.
Offers are designed to reel in customers. Their customer base has also been affected economically. A person hurting economically might make the trip to the casino if he has decent offers (not necessarily even Freeplay but RFB etc).
Instead casinos are cutting comps. That equates to cutting reasons for customers to come in.
These changes will only stay in place until they analyze how much business is hurting. Then suddenly there will be a flood of offers to reel people in.
All it takes is one property to see how they can snag business with wonderful comps and bang, the comp wars are back
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Quote: AxelWolfPerhaps they should but, from my experience over the years, when the casinos are doing poorly, the offers and promotions tend to drop off significantly. The better a casino is doing, the better the offers and promotions tend to get.Quote: darkozQuote: billryanIt's almost as if some outside economic events were influencing the casinos. They lost months of revenue and are operating under reduced capacity but you expect them to continue their offers as if nothing is going on?
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Actually yes. They should be raising their offers.
Offers are designed to reel in customers. Their customer base has also been affected economically. A person hurting economically might make the trip to the casino if he has decent offers (not necessarily even Freeplay but RFB etc).
Instead casinos are cutting comps. That equates to cutting reasons for customers to come in.
These changes will only stay in place until they analyze how much business is hurting. Then suddenly there will be a flood of offers to reel people in.
All it takes is one property to see how they can snag business with wonderful comps and bang, the comp wars are back
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That is the pattern I've seen in the last twenty-plus years.
Quote: VenthusI've basically shifted all my play to cruise ships due to the drying up of offers in the last few months... and found it a surprisingly attractive proposition, compared to local play: Rules where I frequent are pretty standard 3:2 (H17, DAS, A2C, CSM, NRSA), with 0.61873% according to the WoO calculator. (Assuming it's a 6D CSM.)
15 hours of play a week or so at the 25$ level gets you a room plus a few hundred in freeplay/non-doms, and all your food is covered. Downside, you'll be paying about 300/week/person in taxes and effectively mandatory gratuities, unless you're classified at a higher tier, where you get other perks (in terms of expenses... free gratuities). Combo this with free float and gambling at a discount (Averaging 7% or so, until I ran into flow issues, some 30k in), I'm finding anything a traditional casino can throw at me to be a hard sell. I mean, they even give random junk as gifts that break five minutes later too. (Okay, I probably shouldn't've put 8 bottles of wine into that daybag.)
I'm letting my CET tier rot this year... probably for good.
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I’d be interested in hearing more… Any chance of you posting a trip report in a new thread?
Quote: camaplI’d be interested in hearing more… Any chance of you posting a trip report in a new thread?
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Trip reports aren't really my thing as they end up more interesting if the poster is organized and, yanno, interesting. Mine pretty much end up being somewhere between a food blog and reviews of computer games du jour. Especially for Mexican Riviera/California Coast that, combined, I've probably clocked over 150 days on, so you're not even going to get any new food photos, though I could dip into my old collection.
If you have any specific questions, I'm perfectly fine with answering them, though I may have to adjust/be vague on personally identifiable details, since the staff always remember me. ("Heeeey, you were on the Grand like... six years ago?" "...GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN!whoever you are) ...Maybe setup a new thread in the Other Casinos section for Q/A instead, if it turns out worthwhile.
Quote: tuttigymTunica, MS has only 3 casinos
I think they lost three and still have six.
Mr. billryan may be right?no, not gonna happen!
tuttigym
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Quote: DeMangoQuote: tuttigymTunica, MS has only 3 casinos
I think they lost three and still have six.
Mr. billryan may be right?no, not gonna happen!
tuttigym
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A polite caution on interspersing replies with quote blocks: don't attribute your words to someone else. Misquoting is naughty.
