MGM not rewarding high rollers?
I don't believe I have ever seen a gambling company say they don't want to reward anyone who spends TOO MUCH at their facility.
Unless someone corrects me that is what I am interpreting below? (Not to mention our resident high roller and his adventures but sounds like he isn't welcome at MGM).
There are many casino companies in Vegas and California that give table game players less in comps. This is not a surprise at all.
Boyd Gaming even announced about two years ago that it was cutting comps for machine players who limited their play to multiplier days and to full pay video poker games.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThere could be many reasons for this including that table games dont have the high edge that machine play has.
There are many casino companies in Vegas and California that give table game players less in comps. This is not a surprise at all.
Boyd Gaming even announced about two years ago that it was cutting comps for machine players who limited their play to multiplier days and to full pay video poker games.
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It just seems contrary to most rewards programs I have seen.
For example, I am familiar with rewards programs that make earning points harder for new customers but as you go up in card level, your play earns rewards points faster. Usually they even post the permanent multiplier. So maybe 2nd tier earns at 1.5x while top tier earns 2x normal rate.
To then say if you play table games as a whale ($25,000 per day is close to whale status) then you won't even earn any at all seems well insulting to me if I was that player.
All games have a house edge. Even if some table games have a low edge, high rollers are actually exposing more money per minute than a low rollera table play and therefore comparably more money.
This just is mind boggling to me.
Many casino companies just dont give points to table game players.
It's been like that for many years.
Good will?
Haha. Those days are gone.
Quote: heatmapmdawg is effed
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Lol, maybe they have been reading his adventures.
It's the marginal players who make smaller bets that add up to $25k who get screwed.
People who can always throw down a single bet of 5k or 10k dont have to worry about total play (coin in) or length of play.
None of this sounds like a $600 Venmo tax issue.
MGM has gone into "soak the rich mode" and said you're on your own. It would kill their $50 / $100 tables if people actually played for points. Card counters would be justified in not presenting their player's card in the first place.
Quote: ChumpChangeIf I'm betting $25K on the PL & Come at $100 bets on the Bubble Craps, that's 250 bets before I hit maximum and I would have an HA of $350 times 30% equals $105 in expected comps, or if at $6 coin in per penny (which nobody has said MGM does) would be $41.67 in points (40% of expected comps value).
None of this sounds like a $600 Venmo tax issue.
MGM has gone into "soak the rich mode" and said you're on your own. It would kill their $50 / $100 tables if people actually played for points. Card counters would be justified in not presenting their player's card in the first place.
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Your bubble craps would be counted as a slot machine and not a table game.
Quote: darkozMGM has issued new rewards rules. Amongst them was this curious and unambiguous mention about high rollers at table games earning rewards points.
I don't believe I have ever seen a gambling company say they don't want to reward anyone who spends TOO MUCH at their facility.
Unless someone corrects me that is what I am interpreting below? (Not to mention our resident high roller and his adventures but sounds like he isn't welcome at MGM).
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Quite surprising indeed.
If I had to guess as to why, and this is just a guess: those high rollers obviously have hosts that comp everything. High-limit table games tend to have good rules and a very small edge and high rollers tend to play better on average, so when on a low limit 3-2 BJ the house gets an extra 2% HE due to player errors, at very high limits it is likely closer to the optimal basic strategy HE.
If they gave points proportional to play, along with comps, they wouldn't be making much money. If they gave few points, high rollers would get insulted (imagine playing 25k$ then finding 15$ worth of points on your card...)
This is as far as I got trying to make sense of it
Quote: tyler498those high rollers obviously have hosts that comp everything.
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Exactly.
It's the "subject to management discretion based on...the gaming profile of individual members" verbiage.
The one thing I can tell you as an AP is that a casino will never tell a patron they have to lose to keep playing or they have to lose to keep earning. No patron of any bankroll wants a casino rep to say, "well, you haven't lost money so you don't deserve XYZ".
But that's exactly what they do want. So they use synonymous terms. My favorite that has actually been used on me is "you took offers and didn't add your own money."
What it looks like to me is they are codifying that members who don't"add enough of their money to MGM coffers" are going to be subject to expulsion from the rewards program.
BTW, they say no longer eligible to earn rewards points and the SPECIFIC LANGUAGE used is "SUBJECT TO EXCLUSION from earning rewards points". Again, my experience with dealing with casinos as an AP is that means ALL COMPS. Once your account is racking up zero points how exactly is your play being rated? And when a club says you are excluded, that has only one meaning in my experience. This isn't about someone gaining too many points for shopping dollars. This is about expulsion from the rewards program.
Dog Hand
Harrah's Blackjack Table Limit Sign LED Four Color - NR - FREE SHIPPING - RARE! | #518991975
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/harrahs-blackjack-table-limit-sign-518991975
Maybe this how MGM intends to go out of business in the next quarter. I'd be looking for Russian mafia at this point.
Quote: DogHandNote also that the definition of "high level amount" is $25K per TRIP: thus, flat-betting $25 per round in BJ (at 100 rounds/hr) for 10 hours (easily reached in two days of play) would meet the threshold. Since when is that considered whale status except at the El Cortez?
Dog Hand
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Back in the old days that would get you RFB.
The RFB requirement was four hours of play per day with an average bet of $100 - $150 at craps... and I'm guessing your blackjack level is comparable.
Quote: billryan25Kper trip is ridiculously low. A $25 blackjack player can do that on a weekend.
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And just how many $25 blackjack players are there playing for 10 hours in a weekend?
It may be low but their points are over.
This is some promotion to kick all their better customers to the curb overnight.
If I had MGM casino chips or credits, I'd haul it to MGM and cash them in this week like it was a bank run because MGM could be out of business by the end of the month which is a week away.
They didn't say Theo or wagers but spend and specifically mentioned this was for high average wagering.
I am certain (although not 100%) that they are referring to player's who have $25,000 in actual spend.
Since I can't imagine they would halt comps to player's losing $25,000 in a trip, I imagine it's for people who show a win of $25,000 which could probably be lumped in with spend.
Again, it is specifically mentioned that it will be handled on an individual basis by management oversight. You don't do that for $400 drop. This is a high rollers attack and I am sorry to say but it does sound like if someone is bragging they have made dozens of trips wagering over $25,000 per trip and they never lose and always get comped because they don't break the rules, that MGM has just codified expelling them from their program (you know who you are :))
EDIT:. Anytime you have them say management will decide on an individual basis you can read between the lines. If the patron is a loser he remains and if he is a winner he is expelled. Sorry but you have to learn casino speak.
This rule will make any argument pointing to XYZ player who does $25,000 spend and keeps his comps moot. It was decided on an individual basis!
I havent played at MGM in about five years so I'm out. Or else I'd call.
2 things are left. Crappy gift Fridays…although that’s been cut down to twice a month as opposed to 4-5. Multiplier day is still there. Thursday?
Everything else, including all buffet restaurants are basically gone. I used to be able to accumulate 10,000 to 15,000 points per month. Now I’m lucky I get 1,500.
I'm gonna follow-up with what happens when the internet goes down and it wasn't just your Player's Card being revoked.
First 60 Minutes if the Internet Goes Down EVERYWHERE (Minute by Minute) - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26MgTCz7GhA
Quote: ChumpChangeI don't get what Dark Oz is referring to with the word "SPEND." Maybe I'm a little dense or there's something on the MGM website that could define it, but I don't think it means losing or winning $25K per trip, what an utterly bogus rule. Maybe that works on riverboat casinos. You get a Royal on MS Stud or Caribbean for $50K, you're done forever and they may not even pay you because it's more than $25K.
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That's where the individual analysis by management comes in. If they see a player just got occasionally lucky they will welcome you back.
This is for player's who are consistently bucking the odds AND they can't identify the advantage.
Quote: TDVegasNot sure how high rollers have been impacted by new comp rules…but as a low roller local in Las Vegas, virtually every comp has been gutted. Point bonuses, NFL contests, scratch offs, free slot play, prize offers while playing…you name it, A-Z was gutted by Stations. I no longer see cars, ATV, jet skis in the floor. No Napa vacations or cruises. Not that I would win those, but I’m guessing that’s all gone even for Chairman status.
2 things are left. Crappy gift Fridays…although that’s been cut down to twice a month as opposed to 4-5. Multiplier day is still there. Thursday?
Everything else, including all buffet restaurants are basically gone. I used to be able to accumulate 10,000 to 15,000 points per month. Now I’m lucky I get 1,500.
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Very good summary. Some additional cuts:
Multiplier 10x days continue on Thursdays and Sundays.
There used to be 6x multiplier days on other days of the week but they're gone too.
No more weekly free table bets.
No more weekly free dining vouchers.
But I'm also not sure I fully agree with Darkoz's definition.
For high rollers, casinos have ways of estimating a player's trip bankroll, either based on previous data or buying/credit line/ deposits...etc. And a figure I've heard before is that they estimate their average hold to be about 20% of that (this is not the house edge and not specific to a game or slot, but a rough figure of how much of your trip bankroll the casino keeps on average)
That is a figure they rely on for comps too, maybe even more than theo, because theo is highly subjective to variance. A player who has decent variance early might play a lot longer than a player that loses very quickly, but if they are a ploppy that comes with a stop loss in mind, in the casino's situation they can reward them similarly.
So the 25000$/trip figure might be close to a 5000$ ADT level I'd guess, but again they are fundamentally estimated differently
I do agree with Darkoz's assumption that this is going to be enforced quite subjectively. It actually might even be something that is almost never used except for rare cases, but casinos thought nobody reads the T&Cs and better have it and not need it than not have it when issues arise... call it lawyer talk, potentially after someone managed to gain the system and get a small edge thanks to points (500$/spin slot machine on comp multiplier days maybe LOL) They just might be giving themselves the option to exclude someone just in case they need it and stay protected from any dispute with gaming since it's in the T&C
Quote: ChumpChangeI don't get what Dark Oz is referring to with the word "SPEND." Maybe I'm a little dense or there's something on the MGM website that could define it, but I don't think it means losing or winning $25K per trip, what an utterly bogus rule. Maybe that works on riverboat casinos. You get a Royal on MS Stud or Caribbean for $50K, you're done forever and they may not even pay you because it's more than $25K.
I'm gonna follow-up with what happens when the internet goes down and it wasn't just your Player's Card being revoked.
First 60 Minutes if the Internet Goes Down EVERYWHERE (Minute by Minute) - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26MgTCz7GhA
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I think they count the money you spend in the resort, so if you do a few expensive dinners, spring for a bottle or three at one of their many nightclubs or maybe a golf foursome you get points.
In this game of cat and mouse, it's good to let the casino think they are the feline. These new rules look like they are a few weeks old. I'm sure people have already adapted and circumnavigated.
1. Craps or roulette players who bet on "Pass AND Don't Pass" or "Red AND Black". Also, suspected "comp hustlers" and "comp abusers".
2. Once your expected loss (aka "gaming activity spend") is $25,000+, MGM is allowed to rescind comps for players who don't lose, or don't lose "enough". There have been cases where casinos have tried to rescind comps from lucky gamblers (not just advantage players) who either won or "didn't lose enough". In the casino's opinion: "they can afford to pay for their comps".
Quote:
To then say if you play table games as a whale ($25,000 per day is close to whale status) then you won't even earn any at all seems well insulting to me if I was that player.
All games have a house edge. Even if some table games have a low edge, high rollers are actually exposing more money per minute than a low roller table play and therefore comparably more money.
This just is mind boggling to me.
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In the casino's mind, a player whose expected loss is $25,000+ but who doesn't actually lose $25,000 (or worse, wins) should expect to have his comps reduced or eliminated. MGM is trying to protect its bottom line from lucky players and "comp hustlers".
Quote: nvr55xxI am guessing that this clause is primarily for the following reasons:
1. Craps or roulette players who bet on "Pass AND Don't Pass" or "Red AND Black". Also, suspected "comp hustlers" and "comp abusers".
House edge is over 5% on roulette….about 4x higher than pass, don’t pass on craps. If I was a roulette player getting the same comp treatment as a pass, don’t pass player…I’d be pissed.
Quote: ChumpChangeI don't get what Dark Oz is referring to with the word "SPEND." Maybe I'm a little dense or there's something on the MGM website that could define it, but I don't think it means losing or winning $25K per trip, what an utterly bogus rule. Maybe that works on riverboat casinos. You get a Royal on MS Stud or Caribbean for $50K, you're done forever and they may not even pay you because it's more than $25K.
MGM isn't going to ban people from their rewards program who win $50K on Carribean Stud. In my opinion, they will be informing players who win during a trip ($25,000+ expected loss): "You shouldn't expect full comp points because you can afford to pay for your rooms & meals, and we need to further scrutinize your play because you may be an advantage player or comp hustler".
Not a whole lot different than Reeg at Caesars.
Neither is a comp guy.
Quote: nvr55xxI am guessing that this clause is primarily for the following reasons:
1. Craps or roulette players who bet on "Pass AND Don't Pass" or "Red AND Black". Also, suspected "comp hustlers" and "comp abusers".
2. Once your expected loss (aka "gaming activity spend") is $25,000+, MGM is allowed to rescind comps for players who don't lose, or don't lose "enough". There have been cases where casinos have tried to rescind comps from lucky gamblers (not just advantage players) who either won or "didn't lose enough". In the casino's opinion: "they can afford to pay for their comps".
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I disagree for a variety of reasons.
A) doey/don't at that level would be noticed by your average dealer and could be easily affected by pit boss rating.
B) The $25,000 requirement is actually high. You don't need $25,000 Theo loss to generate offers that comp hustlers can take advantage of.
C) that level attracts host oversight. In essence, I don't see any doey/don't team doing that much Theo where flying under the radar is optimal.
I do agree However with your second point. They want certain players to just pay for their own comps.
Quote: TDVegasQuote: nvr55xxI am guessing that this clause is primarily for the following reasons:
1. Craps or roulette players who bet on "Pass AND Don't Pass" or "Red AND Black". Also, suspected "comp hustlers" and "comp abusers".
House edge is over 5% on roulette….about 4x higher than pass, don’t pass on craps. If I was a roulette player getting the same comp treatment as a pass, don’t pass player…I’d be pissed.
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From the casino's perspective, the house edge doesn't matter if the player ends up winning money from the casino. MGM is merely making official what has been an unofficial policy from many casino owners for some time: Comps are a gift from the casino, and not something that a player is "entitled to", especially if they win.
Quote: ChumpChangeSooo with $5 million in bets in one day at a 0.5% HA game of BJ, or $2.5 million in bets at a 1.0% Banker bet game of Baccarat, or any combination of the two or more, the HA would be $25K+ and then the casino just revokes your card even though you have $7.5K of comps coming? Seems like outright theft. Maybe the FDIC should look into this.
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The FDIC has no jurisdiction over casino comp policies. MGM isn't going to revoke people's cards just for winning, unless suspected of advantage play or "comp hustling". From MGM's perspective, no player has "$7.5K of comps coming". However, players with an expected loss of $25k+ shouldn't "expect" maximum comps, especially if they end up winning since "they can afford to pay for their rooms & food" with their gaming winnings.
Modern casino management expects every division to make a significant profit. Casinos no longer offer cheap food because they don't want the "loss" from the restaurant to be "subsidized" by gaming profits. They want every division, and now every customer, to make a significant profit for them.
Quote: darkoz
I disagree for a variety of reasons.
A) doey/don't at that level would be noticed by your average dealer and could be easily affected by pit boss rating.
Low-level "doey don't" players can still (from MGM's perspective) "get away with scamming the casino", but players at $25k+ should officially expect additional scrutiny.
Quote:
B) The $25,000 requirement is actually high. You don't need $25,000 Theo loss to generate offers that comp hustlers can take advantage of.
MGM isn't worried about low-level "comp hustlers". They want to have comps available for players who "deserve" them: losing players.
Quote:
I do agree However with your second point. They want certain players to just pay for their own comps.
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Thanks for your reply. Remember that modern casino corporations expect every division to show a profit. Casino comps are viewed as "lost profits" especially for players who end up winning.
Quote: ChumpChangeWell, that isn't like referring a busload of gamblers to the tables to generate high gambling activity. Seems a pack of YouTubers are miffed when they thought they'd get a $5 table and the casino threw it back in their face with $25 tables and lost communications.
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I saw a video about that but it was a downtown casino and not an MGM property.
Has anyone called MGM yet to ask them?
Quote: ChumpChangeSooo with $5 million in bets in one day at a 0.5% HA game of BJ, or $2.5 million in bets at a 1.0% Banker bet game of Baccarat, or any combination of the two or more, the HA would be $25K+ and then the casino just revokes your card even though you have $7.5K of comps coming? Seems like outright theft. Maybe the FDIC should look into this.
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I think you mean the FTC... Federal Trade Commission. Not the FDIC, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.
Now getting real...
HAS ANYONE ASKED MGM WHAT IT MEANS??
The Nevada Gaming Commission is the entity to call.
Again HAS ANYONE ASKED MGM WHAT IT MEANS?
I know you're all experts on casinos and gambling but for heavens sake ask MGM.
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: ChumpChangeSooo with $5 million in bets in one day at a 0.5% HA game of BJ, or $2.5 million in bets at a 1.0% Banker bet game of Baccarat, or any combination of the two or more, the HA would be $25K+ and then the casino just revokes your card even though you have $7.5K of comps coming? Seems like outright theft. Maybe the FDIC should look into this.
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I think you mean the FTC... Federal Trade Commission. Not the FDIC, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.
Now getting real...
HAS ANYONE ASKED MGM WHAT IT MEANS??
The Nevada Gaming Commission is the entity to call.
Again HAS ANYONE ASKED MGM WHAT IT MEANS?
I know you're all experts on casinos and gambling but for heavens sake ask MGM.
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Dollars to donuts that if you call and ask MGM what it means three different times with three different employees you will receive three different answers!
Also, since they state it will be handled on an individual basis the best answer you can expect is they can't tell you until they observe an individual account.
Which basically means nothing.
Quote: Ace2The important question is: are they charging the 5/9 commission on win only?
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That’s what I’m talking about.
Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: ChumpChangeSooo with $5 million in bets in one day at a 0.5% HA game of BJ, or $2.5 million in bets at a 1.0% Banker bet game of Baccarat, or any combination of the two or more, the HA would be $25K+ and then the casino just revokes your card even though you have $7.5K of comps coming? Seems like outright theft. Maybe the FDIC should look into this.
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I think you mean the FTC... Federal Trade Commission. Not the FDIC, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.
Now getting real...
HAS ANYONE ASKED MGM WHAT IT MEANS??
The Nevada Gaming Commission is the entity to call.
Again HAS ANYONE ASKED MGM WHAT IT MEANS?
I know you're all experts on casinos and gambling but for heavens sake ask MGM.
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Dollars to donuts that if you call and ask MGM what it means three different times with three different employees you will receive three different answers!
Also, since they state it will be handled on an individual basis the best answer you can expect is they can't tell you until they observe an individual account.
Which basically means nothing.
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You're probably right.
Since I haven't played at an MGM property in about five years I dont have a Host to call.
I'll wait to see the first report from someone who has been impacted by this.
Then we'll have details to discuss.
I would urge anyone affected to call the NGC. There's someone to talk to 24/7. I've done it when Boyd pulled a fast one on a drawing. I not only talked to someone immediately but they had an agent at the casino in half an hour to talk to me and management.
