What's in a name? (part 1)
Yes, it's novel, but would any casino actually do it?Quote: MathExtremist3) The game is 100% royalty-free. Seriously -- any casino can put it in without paying a cent in lease fees. That's the "rather novel" part.
Somebody has to get it approved by gaming, do the field test, etc. Isn't that the point of getting a game patent in the first place, so that after all those expenses are paid, the game generates income to at least recoup the costs?
Why would a casino invest in that stuff if some other casino can install it the next day without going thru those expenses?
If you want a novel idea, make your lease fee some stupidly small amount - just enough to eventually pay you back the costs of having run thru gaming, field test, etc.
I gotta think that if a casino was even remotely interested in a new game, the license fee is one of their last concerns. They'd be far more interested in the big questions of whether they'll make money off it, and if players will play it.
Quote: DJTeddyBearYes, it's novel, but would any casino actually do it?
Somebody has to get it approved by gaming, do the field test, etc. Isn't that the point of getting a game patent in the first place, so that after all those expenses are paid, the game generates income to at least recoup the costs?
Why would a casino invest in that stuff if some other casino can install it the next day without going thru those expenses?
If you want a novel idea, make your lease fee some stupidly small amount - just enough to eventually pay you back the costs of having run thru gaming, field test, etc.
I gotta think that if a casino was even remotely interested in a new game, the license fee is one of their last concerns. They'd be far more interested in the big questions of whether they'll make money off it, and if players will play it.
I think MathExtremist knows the ins and outs on this.
I believe MathExtremist knows what he is doing. He have his reasons for doing this.
I have done something like this before, where if the casino install one of my game, I will give one of my side bet to them for free.
(now that I am with TCS, I don't do it any more.)
Quote: MathExtremistI think it'd make a good party pit game or a compliment to Big 6 up at the front of the gaming floor.
Is the Big 6 still around?
Anyway, you didn't mention any sucker bets. In dice these are bound to be plentiful.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he knows it too.Quote: MrCasinoGamesI think MathExtremist knows the ins and outs on this.
But it still has me scratching my head:
Why would he do this, and why would any casino take him up on his offer?
Quote: DJTeddyBearYeah, I'm pretty sure he knows it too.
But it still has me scratching my head:
Why would he do this, and why would any casino take him up on his offer?
Lets see what he say.
-- Would the dice be the smaller, blunt edged "Pai Gow" size, or the standard, sharp edged "craps" size? If PG sized, is there a significant cost to production? How often do they change those dice anyway?
-- In either case the wear and tear on the dice, and table top is significant. I expect you would have to change a cloth surface quite often. Perhaps a tougher "slam here" spot could be added to the layout to reduce the wear?
-- Do you need to accomodate disabled players? What if someone doesn't have the strength to lift the "cup and saucer"?
Quote: AyecarumbaSome questions about the equipment:
-- Would the dice be the smaller, blunt edged "Pai Gow" size, or the standard, sharp edged "craps" size? If PG sized, is there a significant cost to production? How often do they change those dice anyway?
-- In either case the wear and tear on the dice, and table top is significant. I expect you would have to change a cloth surface quite often. Perhaps a tougher "slam here" spot could be added to the layout to reduce the wear?
-- Do you need to accomodate disabled players? What if someone doesn't have the strength to lift the "cup and saucer"?
Yes, Pai Gow dice - the goal is to use existing casino equipment, and I don't think three 3/4" dice will fit well inside a Pai Gow cup. The dice are cheap anyway. I don't know how often casinos change out Pai Gow dice (Dan or anyone else, any ideas?) but I do anticipate significant wear and tear on the layout. I'm not convinced it will be greater than razor-edged dice hitting the ends of a craps layout, but nevertheless I'm taking steps to address this concern.
I don't see accommodation being an issue -- if someone can't shake the cup and saucer, they probably can't toss a pair of dice down the length of a craps table either. To my knowledge there are no ADA requirements around craps, but if anyone knows differently please reply.
However, if you *CAN* get this patented using non-legal dice to resolve a wager, that would open up a world of other game possibilities.
JMHO
N&B
Quote: MathExtremistI don't know how often casinos change out Pai Gow dice (Dan or anyone else, any ideas?) but I do anticipate significant wear and tear on the layout. I'm not convinced it will be greater than razor-edged dice hitting the ends of a craps layout, but nevertheless I'm taking steps to address this concern.
Pai Gow dice are fully "casino legal" dice with serial numbers. They are 11/16" with rounded corners. They are checked for weight balance and size uniformity/topography at the manufaturer's facility.
Pai Gow dice also conform to a smaller legal size of casino dice, 11/16th again. Casinos general use 3/4" or sometimes 5/8" on smaller crap tables called tubs. If dice setting WERE an issue, they could even use 11/16" dice if they wanted.
Casino dice, including Pai Gow dice, neet to be serial numbered, to prevent switch-outs, - which they are.
The 2-side and the 3-side are reversed as an Asian dice convention. The one and two spots are larger, stemming from the days that "drilled-out" dice pips were balanced by weight by removing the same amount of material per side, so sides with fewer spots were larger spots, to have the same amount of material removed as balance. Early Vegas dice had some "cut" dice instead of "flush-face" dice, and they were balanced.
Quote: NandBPai Gow Dice may not be "Legal Dice" that can resolve a wager. I would strongly urge Crap Die for this game.
Pai Gow dice are casino legal, and are currently used to resolve bets (by picking the start hand of a Pai Gow deal).
Quote: NandBPai Gow Dice may not be "Legal Dice" that can resolve a wager. I would strongly urge Crap Die for this game.
However, if you *CAN* get this patented using non-legal dice to resolve a wager, that would open up a world of other game possibilities.
JMHO
N&B
In Nevada, at least, dice are not regulated gaming equipment. According to a brief phone call I had once with the NGCB, casinos can use whatever dice they want. It's obviously in their best interest to use precision dice to ensure that the actual odds of the game are in line with the theoretical odds (i.e. to eliminate bias), but they don't have to. From what I took away from my conversation with the NGCB lab, a casino could technically use Monopoly dice on its craps table if they wanted to. So I don't see Pai Gow cubes being a problem. Note: other jurisdictions do have physical requirements for dice. I suggest Pai Gow dice because round-edged dice will stand up far better to the assault of the dice cup than razor-edged dice, but the math obviously doesn't change as long as you use proper d6 dice.
That said, it's not my goal to get any of this patented. This game is dedicated to the public domain and anyone can offer it royalty-free.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Why would a casino invest in that stuff if some other casino can install it the next day without going thru those expenses?
Maybe - if it were both cheap and profitable.
Imagine if a consortium of casino operators jointly financed some new game, instead of letting DEQ, SMI, Galaxy, etc. supply the games. Sort of like a casino operators' Clearing House. They carry the development risk, but don't expend on table rental fees in return.
Let's say Stations, Boyd, Cannery, MGM Resorts, Harrah's, Ameristar et all jointly bought the game distributors, and made the games public domain for the participants.
How much would they save in licensing expenses, would it be worth it?
Here's a game plan for Gordon Gekko.
Quote: PaigowdanThe 2-side and the 3-side are reversed as an Asian dice convention. The one and two spots are larger, stemming from the days that "drilled-out" dice pips were balanced by weight by removing the same amount of material per side, so sides with fewer spots were larger spots, to have the same amount of material removed as balance. Early Vegas dice had some "cut" dice instead of "flush-face" dice, and they were balanced.
I'd wondered for years why East Asian dice had the oversized pips on the one and two sides. Makes perfect sense now that you've explained it (I've seen experiments done with drugstore dice that demonstrated the bias created by the lack of weight in the drilled-out pips). Thanks!
The whole conversation got me thinking about sic bo. I've seen casinos use both pai gow dice and craps-style dice under their sic bo domes. Seems to come down to how large the dome is. Ones that have smaller domes (less common, in my experience) use pai gow dice, so there's a bet that gets resolved with them already. Although, as Dan noted, what flies in one town may not be acceptable everywhere.
I could see that happening in the old days, where casino owners were gamblers.Quote: PaigowdanLet's say Stations, Boyd, Cannery, MGM Resorts, Harrah's, Ameristar et all jointly bought the game distributors, and made the games public domain for the participants.
How much would they save in licensing expenses, would it be worth it?
But in today's climate, with casinos that sweat the money and are only focused on the bottom line? You think they'll join forces for the common good? Fuggedaboudit!
