Table design layout?

What are your thoughts on table design layout?

I am particularly interested in area dimension parameters to use so as to form a basic design template when designing any game. This would always start with having a standard BJ table as the primary use table.

The area dimensions for each player would obviously include the betting areas, an optional area if the players have cards, the space between each player etc.

There is also the banner area in front of the player, any thoughts on this?

Quote: alfie

What are your thoughts on table design layout?

I am particularly interested in area dimension parameters to use so as to form a basic design template when designing any game. This would always start with having a standard BJ table as the primary use table.

The area dimensions for each player would obviously include the betting areas, an optional area if the players have cards, the space between each player etc.

There is also the banner area in front of the player, any thoughts on this?

My main thought would be don't make it too crowded or busy looking. Too many potential bets scares away players. Keep some "green space."

Yes. Most people don't like crowded tables anyway so a full seven seater at a BJ table will make less money than a five seater table. Its quicker to deal to a five seater table and those extra chairs will stay empty alot of the time. And remember when it comes to printed legends on the table: your audience is likely to be getting on in years and too sloshed to find the eyeglasses that are on the top of their head.

Quote: FleaStiff

And remember when it comes to printed legends on the table: your audience is likely to be getting on in years and too sloshed to find the eyeglasses that are on the top of their head.

Wow--somebody has an even lower opinion of human nature than I do. lol

Last week, I was in Biloxi and wandered through the casino at the Hard Rock. While I no longer play roulette, I did notice the tables. Under the betting areas, they had lights that showed through the felt. After the ball stopped, all of the spots for winning wagers were illuminated. I had never seen that table design before, though it might be common, and I just hadn't paid attention.

I wonder whether a similar approach could allow one table to be illuminated in different ways, so that it could be a blackjack table, a 3CP table, a Let-it-Ride table, etc. depending on which games have higher player demand on a given evening. Would that be technically feasible, without changing the physical felt? I realize that the buttons (?) for bonus bets in certain games would present a complication. If it could be done, would it present an advantage in casino operations? (Here I am thinking about an advantage both to the house and to the players by offering more of the instantaneously desired games in a given pit area, with fewer occasions of a dealer standing around at an idle table.)

Quote: Doc

Last week, I was in Biloxi and wandered through the casino at the Hard Rock. While I no longer play roulette, I did notice the tables. Under the betting areas, they had lights that showed through the felt. After the ball stopped, all of the spots for winning wagers were illuminated. I had never seen that table design before, though it might be common, and I just hadn't paid attention.

I wonder whether a similar approach could allow one table to be illuminated in different ways, so that it could be a blackjack table, a 3CP table, a Let-it-Ride table, etc. depending on which games have higher player demand on a given evening. Would that be technically feasible, without changing the physical felt? I realize that the buttons (?) for bonus bets in certain games would present a complication. If it could be done, would it present an advantage in casino operations? (Here I am thinking about an advantage both to the house and to the players by offering more of the instantaneously desired games in a given pit area, with fewer occasions of a dealer standing around at an idle table.)

I don't see why it wouldn't. Rivers in PIT already has the Shufflemaster "smart-shoe" that pays the winners automatically. Why not just put some LEDs below the felt and make it look flashy? The only problem I might forsee is a Roulette Layout is not near as subject to drink spills and the problems they cause.

Seems like a smart system for roulette, making survalence's job easier. The dealer as well.

Surveillance and Floormen must love it. Dealer clears chips from all non-illuminated spaces then pays illuminated spaces. Easy to see collusion taking place or late shot takers.
An occasional martini is worth it to the casino.

NOTE: one more thing about layout design... don't forget drink holders, ash trays, and color schemes that are practical.
White vinyl edge cushions are great looking ... for about the first few months. After that ... its a housekeeping nightmare.

Remember people do cross their arms...you want lots of space between hands and betting cirle/square/whatever.

Also have a designated Logo Space on your layout. All casinos want free advertising.

Good thread...

Layout design takes into account both the game's play design (betting spot placement, card placement, game protection)

- and the "human" element (read: drink glasses, ashtrays, cupholders).

The first area involves the game designer: if the dealing procedures are worked out, then the layout becomes easier to design.
A few basic rules:
1. Uncluttered - the layout looks easy to play and inviting.
2. Artwork is elegant and unobstrusive, non-tacky, if present.
3. Mid-game "raise" bet options should be situated so that players don't pass their hands over existing bets that can be capped up or pinched down. Deuces Wild's four bets are side by side, not vertical from the dealer's point of view, where players hands can go over their existing bets.
4. For card tables, five player positions are sufficient. The 6th or 7th player just adds to much "take-and-pay" time too a deal, delaying/reducing the hands per hour.
5. Simple and General game rules are listed in front of the dealers rack ("Insurance pays 2:1," etc.) Payout tables for a bonus bet can be printed between player positions.

Human element aspects are handled by the installing casino: providing enough player space for drinks and ashtrays (larger tables), cupholders, etc.

Technology helps: the "hockey puck" bonus light stays on or off to prevent past posting, winning and losing bets are lit up, etc.

Are there any casinos that sell advertising space on their layouts?

Quote: Paigowdan

Good thread...


3. Mid-game "raise" bet options should be situated so that players don't pass their hands over existing bets that can be capped up or pinched down. Deuces Wild's four bets are side by side, not vertical from the dealer's point of view, where players hands can go over their existing bets.

Good points Dan. That number 3 point is particularly important.

What would you say are the physical dimensions in inches of the width and height of the player area to use as a designing template? This would be the max size, but from a design perspective not be tempted to use it all and leave plenty of green space within it.

Quote: Paigowdan

3. Mid-game "raise" bet options should be situated so that players don't pass their hands over existing bets that can be capped up or pinched down. Deuces Wild's four bets are side by side, not vertical from the dealer's point of view, where players hands can go over their existing bets.

That is a good rule. Would you consider Mississippi Stud a potential security issue since players have to pass their hands over the bets to lay their cards down when betting/folding? Could a skilled person add to the 2d Street bet (I think that is what is called) after doing the 3rd street and while putting cards by the Ante as is usually required when you decided to play out the hand?

If it is an issue, how much of an issue is it in your studies/experience?

Quote: alfie

Good points Dan. That number 3 point is particularly important.

What would you say are the physical dimensions in inches of the width and height of the player area to use as a designing template? This would be the max size, but from a design perspective not be tempted to use it all and leave plenty of green space within it.

I don't know the dimensions but I have a suggestion. Purchase a "party" BJ layout like they use at casino nights or for dealer practice. Cheapo ones should be easy to find. Don't go for the cheapest but go for an inexpensive one that has the"casino look" in size and appearance. Actually, buy 2 or three. Have a friend come over and deal to them, see if it "feels" the right size to you.

Now, you can take the second one and cut it into pieces, one for each player space. Using a good sharpie you can draw your needed layout right on the cut out piece. Since you have a whole second layout or 2, this gives 5 or more "rough draft" pieces to work with. The same rough draft effect could be gotten by purchasing fabric at a yarn and fabric store, compare prices.

Another way is to hit the casino on off hours, say 8:00 AM or whenever. Go to a deserted pit and measure using your hand and forearm if you want to be sneaky. This might get you 86ed, though.

Quote: AZDuffman

I don't know the dimensions but I have a suggestion. Purchase a "party" BJ layout like they use at casino nights or for dealer practice. Cheapo ones should be easy to find. Don't go for the cheapest but go for an inexpensive one that has the"casino look" in size and appearance. Actually, buy 2 or three. Have a friend come over and deal to them, see if it "feels" the right size to you.

Now, you can take the second one and cut it into pieces, one for each player space. Using a good sharpie you can draw your needed layout right on the cut out piece. Since you have a whole second layout or 2, this gives 5 or more "rough draft" pieces to work with. The same rough draft effect could be gotten by purchasing fabric at a yarn and fabric store, compare prices.

Another way is to hit the casino on off hours, say 8:00 AM or whenever. Go to a deserted pit and measure using your hand and forearm if you want to be sneaky. This might get you 86ed, though.

Great idea. Thanks for the suggestion. I will pass on visiting the Casino idea though, do not want to look like a table ninja :) They might lock me up in a mental ward!

Quote: alfie

Great idea. Thanks for the suggestion. I will pass on visiting the Casino idea though, do not want to look like a table ninja :) They might lock me up in a mental ward!

No problem. I have a knack for solving weird problems like that. Wish I could translate it into something useful :-)

I forgot to mention use the "rough draft" pieces on top of the "working layout" to test them. Don't underestimate the real-size mockup. Good luck. Let us know how it came out.

Cheers. Just ordered a couple of layouts off ebay, 36" x 72".

You can buy professional tables and layouts online from casino supply companies,
or from a general public supplier/distributor such as Gamblers' General Store
(pop in while in town at 800 S. Main Street, Las Vegas);

See: www.gamblersgeneralstore.com, under Casino supplies.

I sketch out my game design layouts using draftsman supplies from an art store; there's one at the Vonn's shopping center at Russell Road and Pecos.
Bought:
1. Heavy Drawing paper;
2. Compasses/protractors;
3. Mechanical pencils (fine 0.5mm lead)
4. A "circles and squares" stencil template
5. Scissors and glue, etc.

I scan in the layout design and edit with Microsoft paint, etc., and add the finished layout design image (sans artwork) to the game's Final "Product Description guide"/Reference manual, which is given to a game distributor if he shows interest in signing a game after a sales demo.

This document basically includes the following:

1. Overview of game and its market.
2. Description of game procedure and game play (includes side bets offered);
3. Layout considerations (including the images or plates of the game's layout designs);
4. Sample "How to Play" Card;
5. Ranks and mathematical distribution of hands;
6. Simplified Casino House way (if a poker or Pai Gow game)
7. Full Dealing procedure of the game.
8. Example hands (about twenty "decision" hands as examples of play);
9. Math report showing house edge of game with its house way, and the math of the side bets.
10. Detailed Mathematics (spreadsheet of hands distribution at various points of play: e.g., Hole card distribution, at Flop, at Turn, at River/Final end of hand)
11. Detailed house way as appendix, if the game uses a house way.
12. Exception handling appendix
This last appendix is to handle all "exception situations." For example, a SuperFun-21 example would be: "What if a player doubles down on his fourth card and gets a Five-card 21? Does it pay double on the double-down amount?" A Three card Poker example would include, "What if a player loses his hand and ANTE bet of a straight to a dealer's Three-of-a-kind? - Does he get paid his ANTE bonus anyway?")

Quote: Doc

Last week, I was in Biloxi and wandered through the casino at the Hard Rock. While I no longer play roulette, I did notice the tables. Under the betting areas, they had lights that showed through the felt. After the ball stopped, all of the spots for winning wagers were illuminated.

You're probably talking about TSCJohnHuxley's Luminar Roulette Table.
FYI: TSCJohnHuxley is one of the premier manufacturers of Roulette wheels and history display systems. Look at the crown (hub / top center of the wheel), and you'll probably see "TSCJohnHuxley London."
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/luminar_table.png

Brilliant. You are such a pro Dan and seem to think of everything, thanks.

For what it is worth, I've noticed that the drawings of table layouts in patents are very crude.

Usually when you see the game being tested they have a much nicer looking table. Presumably, the cruder the drawing, and the more general the text, the more likely you are able to claim patent infringement by someone else's idea.

Multiple Action Blackjack
Casino Surrender

Guarantee 20 was a patented game (patent # 5,988, 644 in November 1999) by which the player could force the casino to surrender, and pay half the wager when he had a two card 20. But he failed to patent all variations of the game, and specified a particular non standard dealing style that he thought would be effective. The people who patented Casino Surrender on 6 August 2006, had the same basic idea, but there patent was written more generally, and they could claim that they were not violating the earlier patent.

Paco,
I don't think we can make these blank legal generalizations on images in patents.

Sometimes it is better to be broader or wider in specification, and other times it is better to be more detailed in specification, and it depends on each case.

The image in a patent is used to illustrate a method or mechanism to the examiner, but it is the claims that define and cover the invention's area that can infringe or be infringed.

The use of a layout image is really for the product's dealing procedure, conceptual understanding, and manufacture and distribution. It helps in a patent true, but being broader in scope or more detailed or narrow in scope depends on each case; sometimes one is better, sometimes the other way is better, and the lawyer is best to answer this issue based on the case.

It even lights up the payout (2:1) so that the dealer, suits and surveillance get an extra bit of a reminder.
Probably a good idea and worth every penny of the complex wiring which I would imagine is well shielded from martinis and beer.

Casinos know that an honest game is what makes them money, both as to bringing in players in general and also as to keeping any particular table from getting too far into the red ink.

As to specific text in patents, a very narrow, specific and precise claim is great but it can be more easily defeated. That man who patented an optimal dealing system but failed to realize a casino could make money with a slightly less optimal system had a patent that he could hang on the wall and stare at. It probably wasn't worth much more than that because it was so narrowly written that the slightest change would make it a non-competing claim. I'm told that alot of these patent mills that bilk the hopeful but naive inventor obtain a design patent for them that really only protects the exact visual aspects submitted so that the slightest change in the color scheme renders a competing product perfectly safe from action by the hopeful inventor clutching his useless patent.

Quote: Paigowdan

Paco,
I don't think we can make these blank legal generalizations on images in patents.

OK, I retract the statement. I was trying to figure out why these expensive patents had these cheap hand drawn illustrations. I guess I assumed that they were trying not to be too specific.

I think the reason is because the USPTO scans all the documents, with not the highest resolution, and only black & white (i.e. not grey scale, just black & white).

Also, the drawings, while not necessarily hand drawn, have not had the best graphic artists work on it either.

When you scan to low-resolution black & white, with not great originals to begin with... Can you say "Garbage in, garbage out" ?