Getting Started with a Game Idea

I have an idea for a table game. It is a completely new game that is independent of any existing casino game. I have calculated the odds and payouts, designed the layout, and designed the mechanics of game play and dealer payout. However, as I am new to all this, I don't know the first thing about getting the game patented or onto the market.

What is the first step? How do i get the 'ball rolling' on this? Can anyone recommend a reputable patent attorney, perhpas one with a game specialization? Is there a standard form that I need to fill out with odds and payouts listed for patenting purposes?

I am new to the casino industry (just started dealing a year ago) but was excited to discover that there is a side industry in game design and then pleased to find a web-site that actually had a forum to discuss such things.

Thank you ahead of time for any insight in to this process that you seasond pros can offer up.

VonVester.

Read thru some of the threads here in the Game Inventor's Corner and you'll see a discussion of the pros and cons of a Provisional Patent, as well as the steps required to do such a thing.

In short:
The pros are: It's cheap ($110), is written in plain english, and allows you to talk about your idea by providing back-dating protection. By that I mean, once the provisional is approved by the patent office, it gets dated. This takes just a couple weeks. You then have a year to file for the utility patent. When THAT is approved, it is given the date of the provisional. Note that approval of the provisional does NOT offer any real patent protection unless the utility patent is eventually approved.

The cons are: If it's not done properly, it can do more damage than not doing it at all.


Several of us use Rich Newman. He's a Las Vegas patent attorney, specializing in casino games.

Know that the odds are against you - really against you.
There are 12,000 Casino card, dice, and Roulette patents - and about 12 proprietary games became "hits," at least for a while, and where financially worth while.
Solid and popular Proprietary Table Games which were financially successful for inventors, sometimes involving lawsuits, are listed below:
1. Let It Ride (Shufflemaster Corporate Invention, Patent Expired 2/2011) Large base “faded glory” after a huge run.
2. Caribbean Stud (Unknown/uncertain inventor, but patented by xxx and sold to Mikohn Gaming for $30 million) “faded glory” after a huge run.
3. SuperFun 21 – (Howard Grossman, Independent, used extensively by Stations Casinos of Las Vegas.)
4. Blackjack Switch – Geoff Hall (U.K. via Shufflemaster)
5. Crazy4Poker and Four Card Poker – Roger Snow (Shufflemaster)
6. Three Card Poker – Derek Webb (Shufflemaster)
7. EZ Baccarat (Robin Powell and TJ Tejada, Talisman Group via DEQ)
8. Spanish-21
9. Fortune Pai Gow (Shufflemaster)
10. Emperor’s Challenge Pai Gow (Galaxy)
11. Ultimate Texas Hold ‘em (Shufflemaster)
12. Deuces Wild “Hold ‘em Fold ‘em” (Galaxy Gaming) Hit Large, faded hard, resurrected by Galaxy.

So...the odds are a one in a thousand in making it, and this is with the gaming industry executives, dealers/pit crew and developers in the field of game developers.

The costs of developing a game to the point where it is presentable to a casino operator for a trial are about $50,000, to include gaming math and extensive patent work - assuming THAT a casino game distributor would consider it. There are four game distributors who consider new games to distribute.
They are:
1. Shufflemaster, Inc.
2. DEQ systems.
3. Gaming Network, and
4. Galaxy Gaming.

They generally need the following to review your game for consideration:
1. A Solid Game idea, that has..
2. Proof of a solid patent that a gaming industry lawyer can vouch for, primarily Richard Newman or Jon Muskin.
3. Proof of the game's math performance.
4. A worked-out Casino dealing procedure that you can display with professionalism, (or you can hire a dealer to learn and demo your game).
Also, a product description guide and a sale card/"How to play" Card are helpful.

Thankfully, This forum has a Game Developers' Corner where patent issues, gaming math, and other issues have been extensively discussed by game developers who have made it to the big leagues of having real games in real casinos.

Do review that area.

Best of Luck!

Thank you gentlemen for your replys.

$50,000 ... ouch! ... that is a tough one. I don't have that much capital, however, if I can get the patent it will give me something to spread around and perhaps get an investor or two ... or however many. I am assuming one should secure the patent before approaching a distributor. Protect yourself from idea theft and protect the distributor from buying a game that is un-patentable.

I suppose I should start with Richard Newman, I have seen his name metioned several times in these forums, including TeddyBear's response above.

Gentlemen, thank you again for your assistance. If anything comes of this, I will return here for advice and game polishing.

VonVester

The first thing I'd do, if you aren't already familiar with the intellectual property world, is have a qualified attorney or patent agent do a prior art search to see if someone else has invented a similar concept in the past. An invention needs to be novel and non-obvious (among other things) to be patentable. Also, there are competing philosophies as to whether you should attempt to pitch a game before vs. after you have an actual issued patent. Issued patents tend to go for more (from distributors) but waiting for a patent can take over 5 years.

You should read every article listed under "articles" at my Gaming Math site.

After all that, if you honestly believe you have a viable game, GO FOR IT !!!!

Quote: buzzpaff

After all that, if you honestly believe you have a viable game, GO FOR IT !!!!

Every newcomer to the business thinks he will be the next Ernie Moody (inventor of multi-play video poker). As I write in my article, the greater the enthusiasm, the worse the idea usually is. 95% of ideas that I am presented with I think are very bad investments.

Quote: Wizard

Every newcomer to the business thinks he will be the next Ernie Moody (inventor of multi-play video poker). As I write in my article, the greater the enthusiasm, the worse the idea usually is. 95% of ideas that I am presented with I think are very bad investments.

My Go For It refers to investing the provisional patent pro se and persuing a dream with a minimum investment.
Not even Ernie Moody knew he would succeed at first. And I read somewhere the inventor od 3 card poker said in an interview that getting his game into casinos was the hardest thing he ever did in his life. If you can chase a dream for a reasonable fee, why not?
But in reading the BJ side games and other gambling patents it's obvious that some people have no idea what it takes for a game to be successful. Based on past successes it appear a breakthrough has to be simple, not complex. Streak and Switch are great examples of a simple idea succeeding. Even then market conditions can change and a successful game can fade away. Until Colorado raised the limits from $5 to $100 last year Stacy Perry had 20-25 Streak tables in Colorado. On my last visit to Blackhawk, there was 1 streak table
still in service. Switch put 14 tables in Colorado last month.

P.S Average drop in Blackhawk Colorado for BJ tables is $750 and hold is 15-16% No idea how that measures against other areas.

I think that capital outlay number is low if you are planning to bringing the game to market (i.e. getting that first installation). I would budget $75K - $100K by the time you enlist the help of a team of professionals (Patent Atty, Draftsman for Patent Figures, Math Analysis Professional, Graphic Designer, Website Designer, Demo Game Developer, Printing, Letterhead, business entity creation, traveling to market the game, etc.).

I believe you will have to file a full fledged utility patent application before you get a solid answer from anyone or satisfy yourself that the game will or won't work. So you might as well budget for that now. That 12 months between provisional filing and Utility Application goes by quickly unless you do a lot of work on the game prior to filing the provisional.

If you don't have the capital, find a source before you start....one that is OK with $$ being flushed down the toilet. Dan has the math right, it is easily a 1 in 1000 shot. If it isn't your money, I don't know anyone who would lend you money knowing that they are investing in a business that has a 99.9% chance of zero payback. There is romance in creating a new casino game much like there is for many in starting a new restaurant. Both businesses have many, many more failures than successes. As has been said before, "If you are thinking about coming up with a new casino game, try something easier.....like curing cancer".

I hate to be a downer, but I think you need to consider all the words of wisdom here. Many of these posters are very experienced game developers who have been down the path before, some multiple times. There is a wealth of collective knowledge on this board.

Also I would check out the game design articles on this site http://www.jacobsongaming.com/Articles.html. Also, there was a good article called something like Game Masters that describe the journey of Henry Lo and 7 Card Thrill. You can find it by Googling "7 Card Thrill". I think this was a good game and have played it a couple of times over at Red Rock in Summerlin. But the game has yet to gain widespread traction over a decade after the patent was filed. Even if you have a good idea, that is no guarantee for financial success.

With all that being said, I think there is a market for great new games. You just need to be realistic with yourself if your idea is really going to be that 1 in 1000 to fit throught the eye of the needle. And if you believe that it is, you better have a very compelling argument why it will succeed where so many others have failed.

Best of Luck

What does the distributor do? I get there is something of a musician vs record label thing going on, but when you're spending tens of thousands of dollars up front, plus the casino market only has a few hundred points of sale with the majority of revenue coming from a handful of firms..well I don't know what shufflemaster and friends actually DO.

Quote: sunrise089

What does the distributor do? I get there is something of a musician vs record label thing going on, but when you're spending tens of thousands of dollars up front, plus the casino market only has a few hundred points of sale with the majority of revenue coming from a handful of firms..well I don't know what shufflemaster and friends actually DO.

They can get your game in front of the right people at the casinos. It's so difficult to sit down in front of a casino manager if you haven't got some sort of track record in the industry. I'm confident that I can place a good game within Nevada, mainly Vegas, but Shuffle Master have contacts in every state and also have the required approvals to go with it.

The way the industry is right now, for a complete novice/newbie (even with a decent game), the chances of success are slim to zero without the backing of a distributor.

Well now, this is definately a sobriety test.

Perhaps the first question one should be asking is what is the ideal casino game? What makes a game attractive to a casino. Obviously a good profit ...right? But to get a game profitable it has to have a reasonable house advantage but be so popular that many folks will be willing to pay that advantage for a good time.

Craps: What is with craps? It is an expensive game to run,, 3 dealers and a box. Most 'tourist' gamblers are intimidated by the complicated payouts and game play, let alone being intimidated by the 'craps snobs' that puff up and belch out their infinite wisdom and condescending remarks. However, it still commands a great deal of popularity. I can only guess that its popularity and continued existence is because it is the only game on the floor with a 'party' atmosphere.

Roulette: I often wonder why in the world anyone would play roulette, and yet the tables are surrounded by gamblers willing to play its lousy house advantage. The math on roulette is so simple that anyone with high school algebra could figure out, within minutes, how badly they are getting played, and yet they love the game. My guess is because it is simple to play with a minimum of understanding,, just bet Aunt Aggie's birthday and watch the ball go round. Like playing the lottery.

Blackjack: More tables than any other game in any casino. Why the popularity? I am guessing it is popular because it has the illusion that players are in control of their own destiny, as if their decision to take a card or stand will alter the house advantage, when, even if they play by the little strategy cards they are still victims of mathematics, and will ultimately succumb to the house advantage. (note: last opinion does not include card counters which most 'tourist' gamblers are not)

3-card Poker: Very popular despite its lousy house advantage (as bad as roulette). I will give it credit for having much more complicated mathematics than roulette, making it much more difficult to see its odds. But I think its popularity is due to hits on Pairs Plus. Seems that when one person on the table gets the big 'Three-of-a-kind" or "Straight Flush' payout, that afterwards everyone on the table is addicted to the notion that they are next. Small fortunes are happily thrown away waiting for the big hit.

So, I would think the ideal game would have the following features:
1) Easy play so that even novices to the game can join in with minimum intimidation.
2) Fun, party atmosphere.
3) Complex mathematics so that the casual gambler is clueless to how badly they are getting fleeced.
4) Infrequent but large payouts that keep the player coming back with dreams of riches while the smaller bets whittle away at them.

So what do you all think? Would the Holy Grail of casino games contain these elements or not?

I'm going to address these things one at a time.


>> What makes a game attractive to a casino?
In short, a game that will earn more money than the game it is replacing. House edge is not as important as the bottom line of profit.


>> Craps: What is with craps?
If you read enough about the new game process, you'll eventually come across the line: "If Craps were introduced today, it would never make it past the Field Trial."


>> Roulette: I often wonder why in the world anyone would play roulette
I wonder the same thing. Of course I wonder that about Keno and the Lottery too.


>> Blackjack: More tables than any other game in any casino. Why the popularity?
Because it is a game of skill, that is widely publicized for it's ability to be beaten. Too bad the average gambler doesn't have a clue. It never fails that when I travel to Vegas, there is always someone at the airport waiting to board, or on the plane itself, reading a book about counting.


>> 3-card Poker: Very popular
Perfect for people that can't handle the complexities of real poker, or even Pai Gow Poker.


>> I would think the ideal game would have . . .
In addition it needs frequent small payouts so that it doesn't just shrink bankrolls. It also needs to be simple to deal and explain. This is why Craps would fail today.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'm going to address these things one at a time.


>> What makes a game attractive to a casino?
In short, a game that will earn more money than the game it is replacing. House edge is not as important as the bottom line of profit.

I believe that is part of the reason for the decline in Las Vegas and other places. It's like having a store that only sells the highest priced product. A recent poll showed that 70% of players now admit they go to a casino for entertainment over the prospect of winning. All too often I have seen popular slots disappear from a casino floor because of the expectation of a higher drop on a new machine.

>> Craps: What is with craps?
If you read enough about the new game process, you'll eventually come across the line: "If Craps were introduced today, it would never make it past the Field Trial."

Amen!!

>> Roulette: I often wonder why in the world anyone would play roulette
I wonder the same thing. Of course I wonder that about Keno and the Lottery too.

Easy to play and anticipation as the ball bounces towards your number.


>> Blackjack: More tables than any other game in any casino. Why the popularity?
Because it is a game of skill, that is widely publicized for it's ability to be beaten. Too bad the average gambler doesn't have a clue. It never fails that when I travel to Vegas, there is always someone at the airport waiting to board, or on the plane itself, reading a book about counting.

It survives despite the casino's unintended efforts to kill it

>> 3-card Poker: Very popular
Perfect for people that can't handle the complexities of real poker, or even Pai Gow Poker.

It's poker for the masses



>> I would think the ideal game would have . . .
In addition it needs frequent small payouts so that it doesn't just shrink bankrolls. It also needs to be simple to deal and explain. This is why Craps would fail today.

My wife refers to BJ as GRIND ! Hard to argue with her,

Just my opinion, this is a forum you know

Buzz -

You gotta learn to use tags better. The first time I read your post, I thought you added only those last two lines.

Quote: buzzpaff

Quote: DJTeddyBear

>> What makes a game attractive to a casino?
In short, a game that will earn more money than the game it is replacing. House edge is not as important as the bottom line of profit.

...It's like having a store that only sells the highest priced product.

Not exactly.

It's more like selling low profit margin / low priced items - but making up for it by selling lots of them.

I realize it would be hard to convince them, but if you convince the casino that a low edge game will actually produce more profits, they're happy. Dan's EZ Pai Gow is a perfect example. It has a slightly lower edge than standard PGP, but it gets more hands per hour, so it's more profitable.

I plead guilty to being puter illiterate. Will have my daughter educate me in the near future. Penny slots now average 73 cents per play. But anyone who had penny slots on his casino floor 10 years ago was considered an idiot. I worked in the Eureka casino in Blackhawk 20 years ago. In winter on Monday or Tuesday nights we would close at 9 or 10 pm. Directly across the street was Crooks.
Just inside the double door were a bank of 12 nickel VP slots, 6 on each side. with a progressive jackpot. I could never play them before heading home as they were always filled. Then some genius upgraded them from 5 nickles to 10 nickles for full odds.
No problem getting a seat then !!

And for all you know, the 'upgrade' to 10 nickels might have included a change in the edge, possibly even a reduction to compensate for the more costly play.

I can even see the logic. "They're playing 25¢ per throw. Surely they'd play 50¢ per throw, particularly if we lower the edge...."


That's a genious all right. Shortsighted genious....

Crooks has been closed for years now. The Eureka survived until 2 years ago. When Otto's closed Dan Cooper bought it at a fire sale of $1,000,000. Even tried re-opening it at Winter Haven, rent parking to other casino's, etc. It took about 8 years for the debt to finally drag him under. Otto's was a 4 star German restaurant and the only reason to visit Blackhawk before 1990. Sadly to say the last I heard Otto was working as the Matrei D' at a restaurant owned by his former chef. A casino is not a license to print money !

Quote: VonVester

So, I would think the ideal game would have the following features:
1) Easy play so that even novices to the game can join in with minimum intimidation.
2) Fun, party atmosphere.
3) Complex mathematics so that the casual gambler is clueless to how badly they are getting fleeced.
4) Infrequent but large payouts that keep the player coming back with dreams of riches while the smaller bets whittle away at them.

So what do you all think? Would the Holy Grail of casino games contain these elements or not?

- I wouldn't worry about 3). The casual gambler is there to gamble.
- You can also achieve 4) by making it common to "almost" hit big. A really good example is PGP, the sf or royal is always just round the corner because a) "if only i had the joker" and b) Over half the deck is revealed every hand, it's easy to spot that jack of spades you need next door or in the dealer's hand. By contrast the Ultimate texas holdem side bet does not have nearly the same hold.