Why is Baccarat so popular?
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This is a list of my thoughts:
1. The low house edges for banker and player are attractive to the players.
2. It's a unique proposition (I think) where by a player chooses a side, as opposed to a game where a player versus the casino/house. In reality they are playing against the house because of the built in HE but the key is the perception that they are not because they have a choice on which side to play. So, theoretically if you choose the winning side each time then you win or psychologically it can be perceived as a game where it's possible that you could not lose.
3. The bandwagon effect. Winning streaks can be long for either player or banker, so it's just human nature to jump onto a bandwagon.
4. Number patterns. I read a post on the forum that mentioned the scribbling of notes by players. It's got a lot of potential patterns that can result in "systems" e.g. in the last 10 games the average points winner was by 2, the next 5 are likely to be a higher margin so half your bet or do not play. I just made that up, so I dont think it's a system :).
5. Simple. Bet player or banker and be paid at evens, so no odds calculations (unless you opt for the tie bet). Yes, you have got the 5% tax on banker but from a players point of view it's not detrimental whilst playing. May be on cash out though.
What are your thoughts? Is there anything that sticks out in terms of incorporating into future game designs?
Quote: alfieWith the growth of Baccarat tables in Vegas and the dominance of the game in Macau I have been trying to figure out the reasons for it's popularity.
I think you will be hard pressed to come up with a completely logical reason. Craps (especially with odds) has a much lower House Edge than baccarat. Anyone can take notes. The illusion of taking sides can be done in craps by simply taking the Pass or Don't Pass, Come or Don't Come bet.
But as the illusion of control is very important in gambling, the ability to fold and tear up cards seems to be very important, just as the ability to throw the dice is a big part of craps.
As to the more general question about game development, I am surprised that some of the techniques you see in video games where your body acts as a controlling mechanism are not incorporated into gaming devices. At the very least you could pick doors or add the illusion of spinning the wheel. Anything to make the player more engaged in the action.
It isn't my favorite game, but I do like to play a bit each time. What I notice is that players are often at the table for many, many hours. They may be there long enough for m to play 2-3 four hour sessions of craps between baccarat sessions. I can't really come up with a "why" but it is interesting to see the number of players and amount of play even at a smaller casino...
Not real money, but imaginary money Baccarat is associated with. One of the reasons people go to Vegas is they want to feel important. Pretend to be high-rollers, get attention and gifts, throw tokes around. Baccarat is associated with the upper class (forgetting that it's Chemin de Fer that had class, not punto banco), it retains some upper-class characteristics, and this is what attracts middle-class players to it. Especially in a time of crisis, people want to feel wealthy or be treated as if they are.
This, and other table games drying out. Playing 6:5 twenty-one is disrespecting yourself. With alternatives gone bad and Blackjack restricted to higher limits, suddenly Baccarat isn't that inaccessible in comparison anymore.
That's for US. As for the Asian crowd, I think it's two factors: numerology and fate. They want games of fate more than games of skill, and with particularly a distinction between luck (have someone throw the dice, see what comes out) and fate (the card order is predetermined). The numerology of Baccarat is simple, and furthermore the best number is 9, the best one in Asian numerology. Plus, once again, the element of class.
Quote: pacomartinI think you will be hard pressed to come up with a completely logical reason. Craps (especially with odds) has a much lower House Edge than baccarat. Anyone can take notes. The illusion of taking sides can be done in craps by simply taking the Pass or Don't Pass, Come or Don't Come bet.
I hear what you are saying about craps. The illusion can be there but it is not focussed liked Baccarat, in that you have all the other bet options in craps clouding/interfering with the illusion.
Quote: RonCMaybe the pace of the game has something to do with it. I hear that "big table" baccarat is played at a fairly leisurely pace and the mini-bac tables I have played on have generally had a slower pace of play than craps ("dice are out") and other games. The players (mostly Asian where I play, but some other groups) take their time, talk about the next/last hand (or something else...it ain't like I can understand them!!), and slowly place their bets. The dealer does eventually call for bets to be down, but it still is usually a decent interval between hands.
Interesting observation. Sounds like it generates a social and team dynamic in discussing and planning strategy.
I'm not a huge fan of baccarat but I do play it occasionally. More for the opportunity to handle/bend the cards than anything else. If I didnt have that opportunity I would never play it.
Very popular in Australia too. Id estimate that Crown Casino in Melbourne would have about 40 tables at least.
Quote: P90It's the money.
Not real money, but imaginary money Baccarat is associated with. One of the reasons people go to Vegas is they want to feel important. Pretend to be high-rollers, get attention and gifts, throw tokes around. Baccarat is associated with the upper class (forgetting that it's Chemin de Fer that had class, not punto banco), it retains some upper-class characteristics, and this is what attracts middle-class players to it. Especially in a time of crisis, people want to feel wealthy or be treated as if they are.
This, and other table games drying out. Playing 6:5 twenty-one is disrespecting yourself. With alternatives gone bad and Blackjack restricted to higher limits, suddenly Baccarat isn't that inaccessible in comparison anymore.
Ah, Status for the middle classes. Good point.
Quote: P90That's for US. As for the Asian crowd, I think it's two factors: numerology and fate. They want games of fate more than games of skill, and with particularly a distinction between luck (have someone throw the dice, see what comes out) and fate (the card order is predetermined). The numerology of Baccarat is simple, and furthermore the best number is 9, the best one in Asian numerology. Plus, once again, the element of class.
I did not know the best number was 9. Any other key numbers in numerology that applies to the Asian market?
Quote: AussieThe best number for Asians is 8.
They both sort of are, in different ways... but yeah, 8 is bigger there. Either way, 8 is a great baccarat hand too, and it has to play a role, like in the West people like "lucky sevens".
Quote: P90It's the money.
Truer words were never spoken.
Its a simple game requiring little thought it allows interaction and note taking and whether it be big table or MiniBacc its got a certain flare to it.
We could go back to the 1950s an ask why craps was so popular.
We could go back to the 1960s and ask why BJ was so common.
We could even ask why BlackJack was so popular amongst blacks and probably get the same rubbish as to why Baccarat is now popular amongst orientals.
Fads, superstitions, diversions.
Quote: FleaStiffwhy BlackJack Craps was so popular amongst blacks
correction?
What about James Bond playing baccarat? that influence even Asians? the game did not start in Asia IIRC
I am still trying to figure out the appeal of soccer.
Its true that earlier craps was popular since it is thought to have arrived via New Orleans and started out in the South as Crabs.
I was referring to the late sixties, early seventies wherein parties involving blacks would normally mean everyone comes over and out come a dozen decks of cards and everyone was playing blackjack. Atleast this was the case in NYC. Hip trendy high schoolers and college girls gravitated to some Arabic board game whose name escapes me momentarily. Upper East Side trendy bars had some board games at slow times. Some areas of Manhattan had full casinos, entirely illegal in which blackjack was popular.
These pass-times seem very subject to fadish behavior trends.
Thorp wrote that book and the game took off like crazy. Prior to that Vegas mostly meant craps, I'm told.
Now it seems Vegas means gourmet food, wine, nightclubs, dayclubs, yuppies, ... and pool parties wherein couples pair up and retire to a bedroom without bothering too much about last names.
Perhaps 6:5 makes the game something that is below the critical mass need for the continuation of the species or something. Or perhaps all the young gamblers are playing poker and dropping out of school to hit the poker circuit? As one poker dealer is supposed to have heard: "I used to play online poker, now I have to put on a pair of pants to play poker".
Fads and the Department of Justice seem to be the determinants.
Quote: odiousgambitWhat about James Bond playing baccarat? that influence even Asians? the game did not start in Asia IIRC
A lot of things have been adopted across cultures. Beethoven's Fifth and Ode to Joy is one of the most popular and widely known orchestral pieces in Japan. Chinese food is eaten almost everywhere in the world. Tobacco is extremely popular in Europe. Ireland was very dependent on potatoes. Hip Hop is huge in Japan. The French love the movies of Jerry Lewis. Tea as a drink goes back 3000 years to China, and was only introduced to Britain.
In Pennsylvania instead of saying to carry something they say to tote it. The word is from Africa. Nearly all the table games we play are French in origin.
Ireland was a mutton-eating and slave keeping nation. It was the English landowners that forced a potato monoculture on the country. The Irish Potato Famine involved foodstuffs being exported because the English landowners knew the Irish had no money to buy food.Quote: pacomartinIreland was very dependent on potatoes.
>Nearly all the table games we play are French in origin.
Gambling for a long time was a major industry in France and almost the sole activity of the upper classes for a while.
Other countries had bouts of exuberance with gambling such as the Dutch with the Tulip Bulb Mania but the French had sustained gambling.
Baccarat is a word from the Italian though.
To an extent this is about the same as a Slot Machine: put money in, press Red button.Quote: EvenBobBac is the easiest table game in any casino. Any uneducated, illiterate schmuck can play with a 10sec lesson. Bet banker or player, thats it. Thats why its so popular.
Baccarat is about the closest Table Game to a slot machine there is. Put money in one of two rectangles and cross fingers.
There is a tremendous advantage to simple games rather than the complexity and study necessary for the poker room. A quick fix is what the player wants.
Quote: EvenBobBac is the easiest table game in any casino. Any uneducated, illiterate schmuck can play with a 10sec lesson. Bet banker or player, thats it. Thats why its so popular.
That only applies to mini-bac. Big table baccarat takes a bit of understanding if one is not to make a fool out of himself.
Quote: P90That only applies to mini-bac. Big table baccarat takes a bit of understanding if one is not to make a fool out of himself.
Its the players who know what they're doing that make fools of themselves. Bending and mutilating the cards, making a soap opera out of turning it over, throwing temper tantrums. No thanks.
Quote: buzzpaffI am still trying to figure out the appeal of soccer.
Yeah, and the appeal of Russell Brand.
I agree. Its akin to TV wrestling. Big deal. Behave yourselves or get lost.Quote: EvenBobIts the players who make fools of themselves. Making a soap opera out of turning it over, throwing temper tantrums. No thanks.
Quote: FleaStiffI agree. Its akin to TV wrestling. Big deal. Behave yourselves or get lost.
Its a terrible time waster, it slows down the game to a crawl. Its macho BS, who needs it.
Quote: AussieThe best number for Asians is 8.
I don't know about "best" number. For the Chinese the number 4 is somewhat like Americans view 13 - Very bad luck. That's why no LV casino has a 13th floor (go from 12 to 14). It's also why the seat number 4 is missing on most Baccarat tables today (goes from seat number 3 to 5).
It's a lot more rooted-in than simply 13-phobia: to us thirteen is unlucky just because we heard it is, there's nothing else behind it whatsoever, while an Asian person (it's not just Chinese that uses these words) needs to take some mental effort to process "see" as "4" rather than "death". And when spoken by a Westerner, unable to correctly pronounce the tones (it's really nearly impossible, I tried), "death" and "four" sound exactly the same. We all understand that fear of "thirteen" is campy, but the effect of "see" on the Chinese is more like 666 on a devout Christian.
Why can't they just change the words... language works in mysterious ways.
Quote: P90It's a lot more rooted-in than simply 13-phobia: to us thirteen is unlucky just because we heard it is, there's nothing else behind it whatsoever.
I thought it was because Judas was the 13th apostle.
Quote: gofaster87I think the bending, mutilating and soap opera part of the game are fun. I do the same for three card poker(sometimes I get in trouble) when I play it on occasion and that's what makes it playable in my opinion. I like superstition and having a good time at card games...
Is that why 3CP players take 8 minutes to view their cards? I see these guys do a queer little shuffle, lift their cards, and baaarely spread their cards, moving like one molecule at a time, as if the unviewed cards are continuously changing underneath and if you can sneak up on them they'll be desirable. Lol it drives me bonkers when I have to watch them as they almost never expose the digits or pips in their entirety. No disrespect if you're one of these people, after all you pay my mortgage, I just find it odd (and slightly infuriating) =)
Quote: P90It's actually very different, Asian numerology is based on how the numbers sound. To a Chinese person, "I live on 4th floor" would sound like "I live on the death floor".
It's a lot more rooted-in than simply 13-phobia: to us thirteen is unlucky just because we heard it is, there's nothing else behind it whatsoever, while an Asian person (it's not just Chinese that uses these words) needs to take some mental effort to process "see" as "4" rather than "death". And when spoken by a Westerner, unable to correctly pronounce the tones (it's really nearly impossible, I tried), "death" and "four" sound exactly the same. We all understand that fear of "thirteen" is campy, but the effect of "see" on the Chinese is more like 666 on a devout Christian.
Why can't they just change the words... language works in mysterious ways.
I believe thats why we drive Nissan's now. I think in one of the Asian markets 'sun' means 'death', so Datsun was dropped as part of a marketing strategy. Communication is interesting.
Quote: 7outlineawayI thought it was because Judas was the 13th apostle.
AFAIK they were never numbered, it's just folk etymology. In any case that's definitely not the source. It rather appears that Judas is occasionally considered to be 13th because of the 13-phobia, not the other way around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskaidekaphobia
Quote: gofaster87Baccarat is an easy game but you dont see simple people playing it.
Thats because they don't have the money. Most bac games I see have the highest min's in the casino. The place I was at today was $50, 'simple' people are at the penny slots.
Quote: P90... to us thirteen is unlucky just because we heard it is, there's nothing else behind it whatsoever ....
OK, given this lead-in, I can't resist making one more attempt to generate interest in one of my favorite puzzles, one related to the belief that 13 is unlucky. I've tried twice before in other threads, and no one has shown any inclination toward trying to solve it. Here is the link to my earlier post.
Having been to China five times, I can say that they put a big emphasis on the flow of everything. For example, their garden bridges often have lots of 90 degree turns, so that you take a moment to appreciate the act of crossing the bridge, as opposed to just getting to the other side. You rarely see the kind of tracking in games like sic bo, perhaps because the outcomes in baccarat are predestined once the cut card is put in.
Quote: WizardI often compare baccarat to betting on the flip of a coin. However, Asian players don't see it that way and put a big emphasis on the flow of the shoe. They often don't bet the first several hands, to get a feeling for how the shoe will go. It doesn't help, but they will never believe me about that.
In this regard, isn't it a little like Faro?
Quote: HKrandomIf you step in a casino in Macau you will notice players are yelling at the cards as they are being bent; if the whole table is betting on the same side they often all yell together as the big bettor slowly bends it.
This is why I quit playing bac, all the melodrama. And the obvious bias of the pit towards Asian players. You even have the melodrama in minibac. The pounding on the table, the drama placing the bets. There was a middle aged lady who would always bet two $500 chips. When she won she was stonefaced. When she lost, it was a 30sec soap opera of astonishment and surprise, and being consoled by her fellow players. And like most Asian players, she spoke perfect English when the pit spoke to her, but if a non Asian player spoke to her in English, she pretended she had no idea what he was saying and didn't even look at them. I like fast games, I get my entertainment from other sources.
Quote: gofaster87Ive always thought the house edge, especially on banker, had a lower house edge than craps. Look at the wizards charts.
In Baccarat the house edge is
Player =1.24%
Banker =1.06%
In craps the house edge is
Pass line bet =1.41%
But when paired with even 2X's free odds the H.E. is = 0.606%
And this is with only 2X's odds. Who would pay at a carps table with only 2X's free odds? The whole point of playing craps is to be able to play as much free odds bets as your bank roll will allow for. FYI a pass line bet backed with 100X's odds(Hard to find those odds limits but they are out there) the H.E. =0.021% and on the Don't pass side with 100X's odds the H.E. is =0.014%.
So a $5 pass line bet backed with $10 odds bet would a better bet than a $15 Banker bet in Baccarat.
Quote: vert1276In Baccarat the house edge is
Player =1.24%
Banker =1.06%
In craps the house edge is
Pass line bet =1.41%
But when paired with even 2X's free odds the H.E. is = 0.606%
And this is with only 2X's odds. Who would pay at a craps table with only 2X's free odds? The whole point of playing craps is to be able to play as much free odds bets as your bank roll will allow for. FYI a pass line bet backed with 100X's odds(Hard to find those odds limits but they are out there) the H.E. =0.021% and on the Don't pass side with 100X's odds the H.E. is =0.014%.
So a $5 pass line bet backed with $10 odds bet would a better bet than a $15 Banker bet in Baccarat.
Which makes a huge difference if you are betting really big money.
