New Forum area - "Pitch your new Game!"

here's a little big question here at this forum...

Do you design and get casino games out (or any casino games out) - to analyse and design games simply to design better casino games, as your mark in gaming history -

- or do you do it to pitch and sell games for your bank account,

- not that either one is a wise thing to do as a career move.

I think some people design new is games is for just the purpose of "designing new fun games" - whether or not they become millionaires or get games into casinos...because "a part of me was absolutely driven to to this"...

Other people think "it is only because I will make make it and get the big house and Jaguar car..."
Which one is it?

Why do Casino game designers even MAKE new casino games when craps, Roulette, and Blackjack seem to work just fine for casinos?? What the f*ck are we really doing with our time on this endeavor....what is wrong with our daytime jobs...what a nutty career choice...

For fame? (huh?!)
For money (Da!)
Because we're driven to do so? (uh, yeah...and I don't why...)
To make our wives think where fucking crazy? (there's a point....)
And Who are the screwballs design new casino games anyway....Roger Snow...Derek Web...Dave Miller...Dan Lubin...Paul Omohundro...Geoff M....and why??...and then hire patent lawyers and mathematicians....and for what purpose??!!

EZ Pai Gow?? Switch Blackjack?? Three-card Blackjack?? Three-Card Poker??

Anyway, if you ARE driven to develop new casino games...or if you are driven to sell these new games.....

1. Do you do it primarily for the sake of developing new casino games, OR
2. Do you do it primarily for the sake of Sales...

And if there's a difference between the two, shouldn't there be separate areas between:
- the game design end and
- the Sales end...

The game designers are different than the casino game salesmen....

Shouldn't we have here:
1. A Games Inventor's Corner (which we do have) AND
2. A distinct "Games promotion, sales, and pitch corner"

I can't vote as I am not a game inventor, but I'm impressed that several people voted!

PS: if we can have a GLBT section a game inventor section ought to be a shoo-in

I'm not sure if we need a distinct section to pitch games, as the line between designing and pitching is quite fuzzy. Sure, you can call me a game designer, but now that my game has been designed, I'm more of a game pitchman. If you've noticed, in every thead where I manage to talk about my Poker For Roulette idea, I put in a link. Can you guess why?


As far as "Why?" guys invent games, I can only tell you this about my own reasons.

Fame? Hardly. If successful, I'd like a few slaps on the back, but that's about it, fame-wise.

Money? Well, if there wasn't potential money in it, I certainly would not be investing all the time and money that I've been investing. Sure, the money is a nice benefit, but it is the driving force? For me, no.

Because we're driven to do so? For me, yeah. I had a version of my Poker For Roulette game rattling around my brain for quite some time. I'd really like to see it on a casino floor, with people betting it, as well as people annoyingly telling the non-bettors to get in on it, the way they do with the BJ side bets.

To make our wives think where fucking crazy? No comment. (See honey? I said "No comment!")

Who are the screwballs ... ? While I appreciate being named in that group (I'm Dave Miller), I'm not sure I really belong there. Sure, I'll admit to being a screwball, but I'd be the one picked in a round of "One of these is not like the others". My idea is a side bet, although I generally don't play side bets. It's for Roulette, even though I generally don't play Roulette. And I've never been a gaming industry insider, or even a serious gambler. I believe most of the people named in that question are gamblers or gaming industry people.


So that's my "Why". Your mileage may vary.

I voted all of the above but the percentages change daily LOL. Looking forward to the day shortly when I can post my game and try and defend it . I believe constructive criticism is just that. Already girding myself for not having the mathematical skills to identify the house edge 9 digits to the right of the decimal point. But believe I am within a few 10 thousandths and will beg forgiveness.
Please remember that if the drop equaled the exact house advantage there would be a lot fewer BJ tables. Any distributor is probably going to run any game thru his own math guy, unless you have documentation from somebody like the WIZ, Sorry Mike, love to be able to afford you but at present time all my funds are tied up in non-durables. Food, clothing, rent, etc.
Any math guy who would like to try and help me prove I can offer jackpots in BJ without a side bet, protect a SD game from counters while offering liberal rules never seen in decades, and have 2 players betting same amount on a hand face different house edges, etc, PLEASE pm me and help prove I am wrong before I go any further. Understand all I can offer is a thank you and a hearty handshake if we ever meet. Of course if I get lucky, you will be rewarded!!!

I think making money has to be a factor because of the investment of time and $$ to get a game idea off the ground. You would need to be independently wealthy to go in to table game design just for the joy of creating new games.

That being said, as the chances of having a commercially successful game are so remote, you have to have some passion for game design and/or your game idea to know the slim odds of success and still decide to move forward.

Quote: Paradigm

...as the chances of having a commercially successful game are so remote, you have to have some passion for game design and/or your game idea to know the slim odds of success and still decide to move forward.

Good points. I concur completely.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Good points. I concur completely.

My wife would disagree. Many years ago she would spray hair spray in the kids room at night to scare the monsters away. Then someone came up with Monster Spray and made a pretty penny LOL

Quote: buzzpaff

My wife would disagree. Many years ago she would spray hair spray in the kids room at night to scare the monsters away. Then someone came up with Monster Spray and made a pretty penny LOL

Well, it's impossible to estimate the schmuckery of consumers or parents. "Pet rock" anyone?

The difference is, game inventors do not sell to consumers. They gotta sell to a distributor who sells to a casino who then sells to the gambler. And if the gambler doesn't like it enough to give the table the numbers that the casino is looking for, it's game over for the inventor.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Well, it's impossible to estimate the schmuckery of consumers or parents. "Pet rock" anyone?

The difference is, game inventors do not sell to consumers. They gotta sell to a distributor who sells to a casino who then sells to the gambler. And if the gambler doesn't like it enough to give the table the numbers that the casino is looking for, it's game over for the inventor.

Can I add one final word to your statement ?? AMEN!

I used to have an idea about playing football with 12-sided dice. Then I found out theres no way to make "Legal Dice" from them.
So much for stupid Casino tricks. But outside of that... there's room.

Let's be real for a moment. Game inventors do not seek fame. Who invented tic-tac-toe? Who invented hide and seek? More to your point is about casino games. Do you want fame, then find cure for cancer, aids etc..

All casino games are stupid!!! If it wasn't for money no one would play bj, roulette etc... Game inventors are after one thing $$$$$. You entered a business where only the top 1% of 1% will make it. The question is do you feel you are that good. If the answer is yes, persue your dreams of making it rich as a casino game inventor otherwise quit while you are behind.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

All casino games are stupid!!!

This is an odd comment from a game developer.

If you're not a game developer, you should know that "Ace CrAAckers" is someone else's game name.

Quote: MathExtremist

If you're not a game developer, you should know that "Ace CrAAckers" is someone else's game name.

I think AceCrAAckers is the inventor of the game AceCrAAckers.

I don't design games, but I wonder where the response "I design something that I would want to play" would fall in your spectrum?

Given all the alk about developers, distributors and percentages, I've a question: do the distributors also deal with copyright/patent infringements?

I ask because such things can be huge. Infringement is a civil matter, not a criminal one, therefore it requires suing those infringing on your game. Even if you win, you'll spend a lot of money on lawyers. So if the distributor handles it, that's a big potential worry off the developer's mind.

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: AceCrAAckers

All casino games are stupid!!!

This is an odd comment from a game developer.

Not really.

All casino games are negative expectation, so it's stupid to play them. Therefore, by extension, all casino games are stupid.



This is a personal opinion, but I think Roulette is one of the stupidest games there is. Players have no control or ability to predict the outcome. They typically place several bets, most of which they expect to lose, all in the hopes of beating the odds by winning more than they lost. How stupid is that?

And yet, those people that play it, love it. So what do I know?

I'll tell you what I know: Those people also look at, and study, the history display. As such, they will love a game that makes the patterns that they see, pay off. Those people are gonna love Poker For Roulette!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Not really.

All casino games are negative expectation, so it's stupid to play them. Therefore, by extension, all casino games are stupid.

If you really buy into that premise, you'll never spend money on anything other than an investment with a positive monetary ROI. You wouldn't ever pay for entertainment because all entertainment is negative expectation and is therefore (by that logic) stupid. That means no movies, no casino bets, no baseball, no DJs for weddings...

Actually, I was trying to justify Ace's statement.

From a purely financial stantpoint, I agree with him.

But thanks for kicking my butt and reminding me about all the emotional / entertainment belefits. Those, plus the chance to win, outweigh the negativity of the pure negative expectation.

And my statement about Roulette stands in that I don't personally see the entertainment value of the basic game. Obviously, others do.

" Given all the alk about developers, distributors and percentages, I've a question: do the distributors also deal with copyright/patent infringements? "

Just one more reason to try licensing your game to a company with deep pockets, like Shufflemaster, IGT, etc

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Not really.

All casino games are negative expectation, so it's stupid to play them. Therefore, by extension, all casino games are stupid.



This is a personal opinion, but I think Roulette is one of the stupidest games there is. Players have no control or ability to predict the outcome. They typically place several bets, most of which they expect to lose, all in the hopes of beating the odds by winning more than they lost. How stupid is that?

And yet, those people that play it, love it. So what do I know?

I'll tell you what I know: Those people also look at, and study, the history display. As such, they will love a game that makes the patterns that they see, pay off. Those people are gonna love Poker For Roulette!

My background is in sciences so I see all casino games as an experiments with a negative expectations. In addition, it must be resolved fairly quickly, less than a minute. If you compare baccaratt, big six, roulette, pai gow, etc... to chess, football you will see that casino games are simple. Do not get offended by the word stupid. Is it to the point where i have to call it the S word?

Quote: Nareed

Given all the alk about developers, distributors and percentages, I've a question: do the distributors also deal with copyright/patent infringements?

I ask because such things can be huge. Infringement is a civil matter, not a criminal one, therefore it requires suing those infringing on your game. Even if you win, you'll spend a lot of money on lawyers. So if the distributor handles it, that's a big potential worry off the developer's mind.

If the distributor is the game's owner, yes.

If the distributor and the game's owner are different, then no, technically the game inventor has to pay those expenses.

Be honest, would any of you play any casino games if there were no money involved? Would you stand for hours playing roulette, bj, baccarrat etc. My point. They are all stupid!!! If you would play casino games for hours and there were no thrill of winning and losing $$$ you need to have your head examined.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Be honest, would any of you play any casino games if there were no money involved? Would you stand for hours playing roulette, bj, baccarrat etc. My point. They are all stupid!!! If you would play casino games for hours and there were no thrill of winning and losing $$$ you need to have your head examined.

People enjoy gambling and casino games are designed to cater to those needs.

The thrill of winning and losing $'s is a major aspect so to remove that would be like trying to play golf with the holes filled in :-)

Games such as Monopoly, Bridge, Chess are designed to be played purely for fun although you can add gambling elements to these games if you wished to.

Does that imply like games such as Blackjack and Roulette are stupid whereas Monopoly and Chess are not? If so, then which category would a game such as Bridge fall into as that can be played for fun and for money? Is poker a stupid game as that tends to be $-based?

If I was to design a game for fun then I would aim to design a Monopoly-style game, however, if I am designing a game for gambling purposes then I am going to aim for a game that is based on the current gambling games out there. In my view, neither game would be stupid, they would both be aimed at different needs that the public desires.

For me as a full time games inventor.
1. Get new games out to make me some money.
2. Do it as I am driven to make a fine new game,
3. Do it to add it to my life and passion.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Be honest, would any of you play any casino games if there were no money involved? Would you stand for hours playing roulette, bj, baccarrat etc. My point. They are all stupid!!! If you would play casino games for hours and there were no thrill of winning and losing $$$ you need to have your head examined.

That's like asking whether you'd play soccer without a ball. Imagine a bunch of people running around on a field flailing their legs, and every once in a while a few of them jump up in the air or slide on the ground. Is it stupid? I'd guess so, by your definition. Is it entertaining? Not nearly as much as playing soccer *with* the ball. Similarly, while you can play blackjack and roulette without stakes, it's not nearly as entertaining as when you have something at risk. But just as the ball is integral to the game of soccer, stakes are integral to gambling games. You're not "gambling" without them.

How many people would go the horse races, if you could not bet on the races? I was at a small track in Bandera Texas
where trainers would send there horses to get fit in races. The purses were less than $500 and did not show up in the
racing form. There were no mutual machines or bookmakers. I was ask by a patron if I want to bet giving him the odds.
He saw the puzzled look on my face and said " You get the even numbers and I get the odd number horses."

If ever there, always take the odds yourself. Most races you will have an extra horse. LOL

Quote: MathExtremist

That's like asking whether you'd play soccer without a ball.

It couldn't possibly be worse.

:P

Quote:

Similarly, while you can play blackjack and roulette without stakes, it's not nearly as entertaining as when you have something at risk.

The thing is that a royal flush isn't worth anything but what's bet on it. It has no value in and of itself, no intrinsic worth at all. Unlike, say, a painting or a sandwich. Likewise in sports, exhibition games aren't valued as much as competition games. See what attention is given to pre-season NFL games as opposed to regular season games, not to mention the playoffs and Super Bowl.

There are games, like chess, backgammon and Monopoly, that can be played with interest and entertainment without any stakes, because each player values the skill she brings to such games and can match with her opponent. But usually such games are not fun to watch, unless there are some kind of stakes (like chess championships).

Stakes-free casino games are fun to elarn and sueful practice, but not entertaining in the long run.