Side Bet House Edges?
Also, why in general are side bet edges so high? Is it a traditional thing? Or, does it not work in market terms ie BJ is known to have a low edge and is therefore attractive/popular, so why wouldnt a side bet work in the same way? Just thinking out loud, so any of your thoughts appreciated.
Quote: alfieDoes anyone know the top three highest and lowest side bets, in terms of house edge?
Also, why in general are side bet edges so high? Is it a traditional thing? Or, does it not work in market terms ie BJ is known to have a low edge and is therefore attractive/popular, so why wouldnt a side bet work in the same way? Just thinking out loud, so any of your thoughts appreciated.
I would say side bets have high house edges because they can. A casino would make the house edge 100% if patrons would still place the bet. Since the majority of these side bets have occassional very large payouts or even 'jackpot' like payouts, players expect to lose most of the time they make the bet, just waiting (and hoping) for the big score. It is very difficult to 'feel' what the actual house edge is on these side bets, while it is easy to 'feel', that, say blackjack or craps, are at least close to even money propositions.
Yes, it is a way of leeching dollars out of those darned Basic Strategy players who stick with the low house edge offerings.Quote: SOOPOOSince the majority of these side bets have occasional very large payouts or even 'jackpot' like payouts, players expect to lose most of the time they make the bet, just waiting (and hoping) for the big score.
Most slot machines are large jackpot offerings although more and more of them are focusing on the increased dribblings which necessitate an erosion of the chances for that large payout.
The casinos want, and feel that they need, the higher house edge at the various craps and blackjack tables. The side bets are a way to advertise a low house edge game but induce people to play a much higher house edge game. Alcohol, fatigue and the availability of a side bet all help the casino. Is it a bad thing? Well, you don't have to drink and you don't have to put any money on the side bet. Yet the casino knows that you will drink, you will become fatigued and you will indeed put money on that "its only a buck" side bet.
Quote: SwitchThe 'Super Match' side-bet, on 'Blackjack Switch', is the lowest I know at 2.55% (6 decks) although there may be lower. 'Lucky Ladies' is the highest I know at around 24%, although there may be higher ('Lucky Ladies' needs a high starting edge as it is highly countable).
Cheers, I will put the "Super Match" bet at the top of the list.
than the BJ bet. On a simple $5 BJ bet with a $1 side bet the house needs a higher take to compensate for
this fact. Side bets , even with a minimal slowing effect, will cause less hands to be dealt per hour.
There are so many side bets listed on The Wiz's site because once the novelty wears off and the player
realizes he is losing more on them than in the BJ game, the side bet disappears.
Usually to be replaced by another. As revenues continue to fall though casinos seem more inclined to try
almost anything.
Another reason a lot of players do not play side bets is they have a conflict with Basic Strategy. When at the
5th hand on a Streak side bet facing a 37-1 payoff , would you really double a 9 against a dealers 6 ?? Plus in Streak
if you split 8's 3 times, win a Double down and lose the other 2 hands, your Streak is over. If you simply were
to have been parlaying your winnings, you would still be alive.
So you need to balance the need to provide an added entertainment value for the player against the need to
increase the table drop. Even without factoring in it's effect against Basic Strategy this is most difficult to do.
Even hiding the house edge as in Wheel Of Madness can not save a popular side bet from becoming a distant
Memory.
Switch seems to have been able to provide a low house edge bet and at first blush I don't think 8-1 payoff would
interfere with BS. I will be traveling to Blackhawk later this month to see BJ switch in action and get feedback
from some dealers and players. On the surface Switch appears to have a winner. Placing 14 tables in a market this
small seems to forecast sucess, but only time will tell.
Relevant portion of Paytable:
FH 9
FL 6
ST 4
3K 3
Quote: buzzpaffThe reason most side bets in BJ have a high edge is the fact that most side bets are at a lower denomination
than the BJ bet. On a simple $5 BJ bet with a $1 side bet the house needs a higher take to compensate for
this fact. Side bets , even with a minimal slowing effect, will cause less hands to be dealt per hour.
There are so many side bets listed on The Wiz's site because once the novelty wears off and the player
realizes he is losing more on them than in the BJ game, the side bet disappears.
Usually to be replaced by another. As revenues continue to fall though casinos seem more inclined to try
almost anything.
Another reason a lot of players do not play side bets is they have a conflict with Basic Strategy. When at the
5th hand on a Streak side bet facing a 37-1 payoff , would you really double a 9 against a dealers 6 ?? Plus in Streak
if you split 8's 3 times, win a Double down and lose the other 2 hands, your Streak is over. If you simply were
to have been parlaying your winnings, you would still be alive.
So you need to balance the need to provide an added entertainment value for the player against the need to
increase the table drop. Even without factoring in it's effect against Basic Strategy this is most difficult to do.
Even hiding the house edge as in Wheel Of Madness can not save a popular side bet from becoming a distant
Memory.
Some great insights, thanks. I will certainly make a mental note of the point that a side-bet should not effect the players play/strategy/choices in the main game.
Actually, it's the other way around.Quote: buzzpaffThe reason most side bets in BJ have a high edge is the fact that most side bets are at a lower denomination than the BJ bet.
Because they've got a high house edge, the casino allows you to bet below the table minimum, to encourage the side bet action.
I've said it before: Anytime the casino offers a bet for less than the table minimum, ask yourself why.
FWIW: Although not really 'side bets', the junk in the middle of a craps table falls right in line with this reasoning.
Quote: alfie
Also, why in general are side bet edges so high? Is it a traditional thing? Or, does it not work in market terms ie BJ is known to have a low edge and is therefore attractive/popular, so why wouldnt a side bet work in the same way? Just thinking out loud, so any of your thoughts appreciated.
A "side" or "add-on" for anything seems to have a high profit margin for the proprietor. I first learned that when my secretary told me how about $0.24 of the then $0.29 "upgrade" at Burger King was pure profit. But the customers went for it in a big way because they thought it was a value. Side bets seem the same psycologically. Player has $10 bet, what is another $1 but that $1 could win another $10!
Quote: DJTeddyBearAnytime the casino offers a bet for less than the table minimum, ask yourself why.
It is not just offering such a bet but often it is encouraging it by size, location or intonation of stick-man. They ain't forcing the stickman to go thru that patter about the center bets so as to benefit the players.
Quote: DJTeddyBearActually, it's the other way around.
Because they've got a high house edge, the casino allows you to bet below the table minimum, to encourage the side bet action.
I've said it before: Anytime the casino offers a bet for less than the table minimum, ask yourself why.
FWIW: Although not really 'side bets', the junk in the middle of a craps table falls right in line with this reasoning.
The question can be framed another way. Why does the casino add a side bet to a standard BJ game ? And the answer is
obviously to increase the drop !
But the real answer is another question. Why does the casino remove a side bet from a standard BJ table ? That answer
goes to the heart of side bets. It is not just because the novelty has worn off but the side bet often has had a negative
effect on the drop. Per your blog you often ( too often per latest blog) play at $25 or $50 BJ. Not too many side bets at
those tables. But even at lower limit, $5 or $10 the side bets diminish the actual drop by impacting on the number of
hands dealt per hour.
Slot machine go through cycles and are constantly changing. But when a slot machine is removed it is almost always
replaced by a newer or more popular game. At the BJ table the side bets just goes away and the BJ table stays as it
was before, until someone convinces the table games manager this new side bet is better than any other.
I think you may be conflating us two. DJTeddyBear's game is live poker and craps, if I remember correctly.Quote: buzzpaffPer your blog you often ( too often per latest blog) play at $25 or $50 BJ. Not too many side bets at those tables.
And yes, I do play way too much $25/$50 BJ. And the play goes way too fast, especially on shoe games with no side bets.
I'm limiting myself to single-deck and double-deck (S!7) pitch games from now on.
delivery motions, telling the player he just missed, and of course nonsensical advice " Wait till you lose a hand
before placing a Streak bet to win 5 bets in a row, because otherwise you have to win 6 in a row" all add up
to simply annoy me when all I wanted to do was play BJ !!!
Yep. I tend to avoid BJ primarily because of the condescending attitude of the other players because I don't play the side bets.Quote: teddysI think you may be conflating us two. DJTeddyBear's game is live poker and craps, if I remember correctly.
When I do play BJ, it's at a $5 or $10 table. The exception is when I'm in Vegas and I just have a little time to kill. In that case, I've played at the $1 table because of the entertainment value of player's reactions, far outweighing the cost, when I split tens.
that I took the dealer's break card LOL
Quote: teddysI think you may be conflating us two. DJTeddyBear's game is live poker and craps, if I remember correctly.
And yes, I do play way too much $25/$50 BJ. And the play goes way too fast, especially on shoe games with no side bets.
I'm limiting myself to single-deck and double-deck (S!7) pitch games from now on.
Hope the cards start running better for you. You statement about the games going way too fast without side bets
is exactly why side bets need such a high house edge.
I know the feeling. Sometimes you just want to tell them to shut their yap. Side bets are a choice. Do they bleed off what would otherwise be tokes? Perhaps. Do they appeal to some more than others? Of course they do. Do they have advantages and disadvantages? Of Course. If its "just a buck" its probably a bad deal but as the dealer will say "its just a buck". I'm not going to do any side bets: combination of house edge and the nuisance of it all. Others may look at the high payout and say go for it. People are forever making one or two dollar center bets at craps. I don't argue with them about it. I'm not going to argue with the blackjack player about the equivalent bet.Quote: buzzpaffI have split tens just to annoy a know-it-all idiot who complained several hands before that I took the dealer's break card
out to 21 with a 6 up, or keeping turning over that second 10 with one up. Tips exceed hourly salary
in more cases and losers do not tip as a rule.
I know the dealers have to grin and bear it. I remind the loudmouths that the only decisions that are
made are on the player's side of the table !!
Quote: AZDuffmanA "side" or "add-on" for anything seems to have a high profit margin for the proprietor. I first learned that when my secretary told me how about $0.24 of the then $0.29 "upgrade" at Burger King was pure profit. But the customers went for it in a big way because they thought it was a value. Side bets seem the same psycologically. Player has $10 bet, what is another $1 but that $1 could win another $10!
I think that this statement is generally true. Most people understand that restaurant sales have moved most of the profit to beverages, house beer, and house wine plus desserts. Airlines now make their profits from surcharges , penalties and sales on the plane. Automobile manufacturers now make their profit on financing. Printer manufacturers make their money on ink and toner sales. Electronics sales make money on warranty extensions.
In craps, the house edge of proposition bets is obvious to all but the most. If you bet money on the yo bet, you know that you have an 18:1 true odds, but the payout is usually 15:1. You can usually explain to someone the difference between payouts of "10 for 1" and "10 to 1".
Most of the side bets in blackjack are harmless enough. They give people what they crave which is jackpots. As long as they make the tables more profitable and leave the core game alone, it doesn't hurt me.
I don't think anyone can argue with that statement. Just curious if anyone else is persuing the idea of adding Jackpots
within the basic game versus a side bet
Quote: buzzpaff" Most of the side bets in blackjack are harmless enough. They give people what they crave which is jackpots. As long as they make the tables more profitable and leave the core game alone, it doesn't hurt me. "
Just curious if anyone else is persuing the idea of adding Jackpots
within the basic game versus a side bet
I was not persuing a jackpot idea within the main game. I didn't even think about it until you have just mentioned it. I think it would make a good thread discussion, I would certainly contribute if you decide to start one.
Quote: buzzpaff" Most of the side bets in blackjack are harmless enough. They give people what they crave which is jackpots. As long as they make the tables more profitable and leave the core game alone, it doesn't hurt me. "
I don't think anyone can argue with that statement. Just curious if anyone else is persuing the idea of adding Jackpots
within the basic game versus a side bet
The problem with that approach is there's not enough money to do it. BJ already has <1% edge. In order to add a jackpot without paying for it (via another wager) you'd need to destroy some key feature of the game which would turn off players so much that the jackpot wouldn't matter. Like making BJ pay even money, or making ties lose.
Quote: MathExtremistThe problem with that approach is there's not enough money to do it. BJ already has <1% edge. In order to add a jackpot without paying for it (via another wager) you'd need to destroy some key feature of the game which would turn off players so much that the jackpot wouldn't matter. Like making BJ pay even money, or making ties lose.
That is a question that must ultimately be the player's decision. If everyone shared your viewpoint than the 6-5 tables would be
empty. Sadly they are not. It is a tribute to the core game that players are willing to take that big a hit just to play single deck.
I am not a Rob Singer nor a Gene Gioia. Gene won several inventors awards before launching Real Deal Poker.
Why RealDealPoker?
* • Created by poker players, for poker players.
* • Real Cards, real players, real poker.
* • Play poker online and not online poker!
* • NO random number generators used to deal the cards.
* • Patented hardware design (Cut N’ Shuffle®).
* • The only site that offers fully audited hand data (Game CheckTM).
* • Each and every hand is played using a single deck of cards.
* • The player with the dealer button can execute a cut of the deck.
* • Burn Cards are used, as in live games.
* • Decks of cards are totally secure. Data is encrypted at multiple points with different decryption keys and no single person will have access to the data required to play and win a game.
* • We have developed procedures and functions designed to deter "Bots" from participating in our games.
Even launched his own poker room online. Hard enough to compete against 500 other on-line poker rooms. Gene soon
discovered that his chosen market consisted of players (losers) who were sure RNG's were rigged. Anyone who visited the
RDP forum before it was closed knows these same players insisted RDP was rigged LOL Funny to many people, but not Gene
and his investors.
I face a similar dilemna. I can offer jackpots inside the basic game, offer the most liberal rules, protect the jackpots and
basic game from counters. Even have the house edge increase incrementally as bets are raised. But at what level will players
accept even money on BJ to fund these changes ? I even have figured out how 2 players making the exact same bet on a
hand can face different house edges in the same game exactly as to rules, payoffs etc. I can pay a $10,000 jackpot on a $5
minimum table bet and avoid withholding taxes ? But it all goes for naught if the player are not willing to accept Even Money
on BJ to have jackpots and liberal rules within the confine of a SD game.
I would never doubt any mathematical expression of yours. Hell I have no idea what the hell you are saying usually. But that
is my ignorance,
Quote: buzzpaff
I face a similar dilemna. I can offer jackpots inside the basic game, offer the most liberal rules, protect the jackpots and
basic game from counters. Even have the house edge increase incrementally as bets are raised. But at what level will players
accept even money on BJ to fund these changes ? I even have figured out how 2 players making the exact same bet on a
hand can face different house edges in the same game exactly as to rules, payoffs etc. I can pay a $10,000 jackpot on a $5
minimum table bet and avoid withholding taxes ? But it all goes for naught if the player are not willing to accept Even Money
on BJ to have jackpots and liberal rules within the confine of a SD game.
[/q
That sounds fascinating.
Blackjack Switch pays evens on a natural, so why not your version of BJ? I assume you are branding it to differentiate it from standard BJ, which would be a way /strategy to overcome the dilemma you have. After all you are not attempting to replace standard BJ but offer an alternative game.
When you mentioned the Jackpot within BJ yesterday I decided to have a go at seeing if I could do it. I was not 100% sure what you meant by Jackpot, so I interpreted it as potential large payoff(s) if certain conditions where met by a player. I managed to do it (it would all have to be subject to math analysis, which is beyond me) and keep BJ as the standard game. There are changes, but Bj exists within it in terms of play/rules/use of basic strategy etc.Alfie
Quote: buzzpaff
I face a similar dilemna. I can offer jackpots inside the basic game, offer the most liberal rules, protect the jackpots and
basic game from counters. Even have the house edge increase incrementally as bets are raised. But at what level will players
accept even money on BJ to fund these changes ? I even have figured out how 2 players making the exact same bet on a
hand can face different house edges in the same game exactly as to rules, payoffs etc. I can pay a $10,000 jackpot on a $5
minimum table bet and avoid withholding taxes ? But it all goes for naught if the player are not willing to accept Even Money
on BJ to have jackpots and liberal rules within the confine of a SD game.
The play is the thing.
Blackjack revenue is way, way down. In Nevada it is at the same level as it was in 1997. A good rule for overall gambling levels is that it's back to 2004 levels.
From a casino operator's viewpoint, he see the revenue from a blackjack table is equal to 7 penny machines, or about 10 multi-denomination levels and it hardly seems worth the trouble.
Suppose you paid the 6:5 to the player, and threw the rest of the normal payout (1.5 to 5) into a tub. After 10 blackjacks you qualified for the drawing at the end of the night. The pot is always sweetened with $100 from the slot machines. Last rule is you have to be there to qualify for the drawing.
Even a simple set of rules like that would make people play at least 100 hands to get to qualify. Then most people would stick around to see if they win the drawing.
That table would probably make much more off of player errors because of increased play, even though the house edge is still very low.
The average blackjack table is now making less then $500/day in downtown Vegas, and even lower in other parts of the county. You don't need to worry about house edge as much if people just played.
Quote: alfieQuote: buzzpaff
I face a similar dilemna. I can offer jackpots inside the basic game, offer the most liberal rules, protect the jackpots and
basic game from counters. Even have the house edge increase incrementally as bets are raised. But at what level will players
accept even money on BJ to fund these changes ? I even have figured out how 2 players making the exact same bet on a
hand can face different house edges in the same game exactly as to rules, payoffs etc. I can pay a $10,000 jackpot on a $5
minimum table bet and avoid withholding taxes ? But it all goes for naught if the player are not willing to accept Even Money
on BJ to have jackpots and liberal rules within the confine of a SD game.
[/q
That sounds fascinating.
Blackjack Switch pays evens on a natural, so why not your version of BJ? I assume you are branding it to differentiate it from standard BJ, which would be a way /strategy to overcome the dilemma you have. After all you are not attempting to replace standard BJ but offer an alternative game.
Now for the hard part. Protect the jackpot from counters while make it available more than once a blue moon to the players.
And do it in a SD game. Have fun trying LOL
When you mentioned the Jackpot within BJ yesterday I decided to have a go at seeing if I could do it. I was not 100% sure what you meant by Jackpot, so I interpreted it as potential large payoff(s) if certain conditions where met by a player. I managed to do it (it would all have to be subject to math analysis, which is beyond me) and keep BJ as the standard game. There are changes, but Bj exists within it in terms of play/rules/use of basic strategy etc.
Now try and protect that jackpot from counters while making it available to players more than once in a blue moon.
And in a SD no less Have fun and good luck
Blackjack revenue is way, way down. In Nevada it is at the same level as it was in 1997. A good rule for overall gambling levels is that it's back to 2004 levels.
From a casino operator's viewpoint, he see the revenue from a blackjack table is equal to 7 penny machines, or about 10 multi-denomination levels and it hardly seems worth the trouble.
Suppose you paid the 6:5 to the player, and threw the rest of the normal payout (1.5 to 5) into a tub. After 10 blackjacks you qualified for the drawing at the end of the night. The pot is always sweetened with $100 from the slot machines. Last rule is you have to be there to qualify for the drawing.
Even a simple set of rules like that would make people play at least 100 hands to get to qualify. Then most people would stick around to see if they win the drawing.
That table would probably make much more off of player errors because of increased play, even though the house edge is still very low.
The average blackjack table is now making less then $500/day in downtown Vegas, and even lower in other parts of the county. You don't need to worry about house edge as much if people just played.
Blackhawk
BJ Tables
79
81
81
80
82
83
84
82
652
BJ Drop
12,490,228.98
12,014,557.20
11,687,575.52
11,777,153.02
11,143,336.85
11,330,257.52
11,457,063.82
10,894,573.12
92,794,746.03
AGP
1,873,843.98
1,981,933.70
1,714,087.02
1,810,576.27
1,710,421.60
1,897,949.52
1,971,566.82
1,696,916.62
14,657,295.53
Avg Daily AGP
765.15
789.30
705.39
730.07
697.88
737.64
757.13
739.08
740.25
Hold %
15.00%
16.50%
14.67%
15.37%
15.35%
16.75%
17.21%
15.58%
15.80%
This is in an environment where you can find $5 tables all week and $10 on weekends. With a max of $100.
And no 6.5 payoffs anywhere, at least not yet. Switch is placing 14 tables in Colorado and wonder their
outcome ?
My idea started with taking that 3-2 on $5 and throwing it in a pot, so to speak. Colorado was $5 min-max
for almost 20 years. That's 11.5 cents a hand if BJ is even money, take 1.5 cents to liberalize rules, take all
but .6 cents out of the dime for HE, use rest to funnel a jackpot or rather minor and major jackpots.
Not math proficient so use that 10 cents to move decimal point around on combinations first LOL
Light came on after 10 years as i walk by, of all things, a slot machine LOL
Anybody got comment on the BJ drop in Blackhawk. It sure as hell is NOT tourist money !
I'm sure a lot of people here are interested in the same thing. You seem to have experience there, so if you have the time I'm sure it would be appreciated.
Quote: teddysBuzz -- I for one would be interested in reading a detailed report of the Blackhawk gaming scene. What is it like with all those little casinos right next to each other? Do all of them offer the same games? How do they stand out? Is the clientele mostly Denver locals? Do they all have hotels, and are free rooms available to players? What are the transportation options?
I'm sure a lot of people here are interested in the same thing. You seem to have experience there, so if you have the time I'm sure it would be appreciated.
I will start a seperate thread. It sure is a different market as Harrah's and Harvey's found out. I worked in one of the smaller casino's in 1991 when gambling was first legalized. Hind sight is 20-20 but it was obvious from the start that few small casino's would survive. I worked at the Uereka and other casino employees always told me to rush to the bank as Dan Cooper had to fold anyday. He lasted 15 years while the other folded in 3-5 years. Had he not bought Otto's for $1,000,000 at a fire sale he would still be in business today.
Damn, I occassionally suffer from verbal diarrhea. Look for a new thread shortly Teddys
Quote: buzzpaff
Now try and protect that jackpot from counters while making it available to players more than once in a blue moon.
And in a SD no less Have fun and good luck
Good point. I do like a creative challenge, but I do not fancy trying that one ;).
That is why there as so many side bets listed for BJ. If someone develops jackpots inside a BJ game, then it is bye bye
to all BJ side bets !
