Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 2226
March 9th, 2011 at 2:21:48 PM permalink
With the recent discussion about 10 Hand Hold 'Em, EZ Baccarat and the need for new games to be "quick and easy" to have a chance, I was wondering what the group thinks about the importance of "strategy" in a new table game design.

For disclosure purposes, I have designed a game that requires no player strategy, so my opinion is biased.

I don't want this thread to be game specific, but rather get the group's thoughts on whether having a strategic player decision that influences the house advantage is a "must have" in new game design?

Do players quickly tire of games that are simply "make a bet and then see what happens"? Does a game like 10 Hand Hold 'Em have a chance of succeeding or is it destined to be at most a flash in the pan that ultimately is too boring to get long term consistent play?

Again, I don't mean to focus on a specific game but rather the necessity for "player strategy" to be present for a game to have longevity. Sorry for the ramble, hopefully you get the point of my question.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1426
  • Posts: 24461
March 9th, 2011 at 2:27:58 PM permalink
I think the type of player who plays new games will just fly by the seat of his own pants and not worry about making uninformed decisions. For this reason, new games tend to beat up on the players, and make too much money from each player. My advice to game inventors, where strategy is involved, is to set the house edge very low at first, like 0.5%. In the very unlikely event the game catches only, depress the pay table years later, after players know proper strategy better.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
March 9th, 2011 at 2:36:32 PM permalink
There's room for both. I prefer a game that keeps me engaged/thinking but then there's Baccarat which I will not play but other peopkle adore. When it comes to slots, I like to be entertained while losing my money so I am drawn to one armed bandits that have a theme aand a fun bonus round that I get to play often enough to keep me engaged. I like to think that I have a say in the outcome so like The Lord of the Rings, I like to pick the farm bonus as opposed to the fireworks bonus because the farm bonus let's you pick and the fireworks bonus is just some free spins. I hope that helps.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
March 9th, 2011 at 2:44:39 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My advice to game inventors, where strategy is involved, is to set the house edge very low at first, like 0.5%. In the very unlikely event the game catches only, depress the pay table years later, after players know proper strategy better.



Is that what happened with three card poker and Let it Ride? Or were the pair+ and other paytables always lousy? I know pair+ never had a 0.5% edge, but I seem to recall there were paytables with a less unfavorable house advantage.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
March 9th, 2011 at 2:51:57 PM permalink
Minni-Baccarat is a slot machine wherein you don't have to press the red button or view any graphics.

Instead of make bet, hit red button, watch, wait and listen, its make bet, win/lose.

Strategy?
Perhaps you might consider who the players are? Drunk passersby on their first trip to a casino ever? Sharpie gamblers? Bingo players on a break waiting for the next Odd hour to begin? Hookers trying to avoid casino heat?

Often there is such a mix in a casino that there is no real "player profile".
Some strategy is probably desirable if only to let the player think he is ever so clever and has mastered something, such as Get Close to 21 but Don't Go Over It. Gotta give 'em something to think about while they are staring at the dealer's anatomy and waiting for the cocktail waitresses anatomy to appear.
appistappis
appistappis
Joined: Mar 27, 2010
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 105
March 9th, 2011 at 3:16:19 PM permalink
important things in new games......hidden house edge, simple to learn and play, ability to win large on one hand.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
March 10th, 2011 at 8:24:33 PM permalink
Was just gonna post to thread in general that recent poll showed players playing for entertainment rather than gambling exceeded 50% for first time. Then I read the above replies and am encouraged at possibilities of success. House edge is 00.60, simple basic strategy and ability to win large on one hand. Once again thanks to the WIZ for this great forum.
Would go into more detail but USA patent rules suck. In the rest of the world it's first to file . In USA it's first to invent. So on any successful game, the giants like Shufflemaster and IGT look for any abandoned ideas they can claim you are infringing on. Switch is evaluating my game and offer honest and constructive criticism. Switch is also placing 14 Switch 21 tables in Colorado next week.
Buzz
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
April 13th, 2011 at 3:21:29 PM permalink
Quote: appistappis

important things in new games......hidden house edge, simple to learn and play, ability to win large on one hand.




Anybody else agree with this?????? I have aversion of SD BJ that includes jackpots, basic strategy is unchanged. At $25 table minor jackpot is $500, major is $50,000 and a subtly hidden edge than can raise HE from 00.6 to 01.5. HE can be different for 2 players with each betting same amount per hand.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
April 13th, 2011 at 3:38:27 PM permalink
I do Fully agree. Blackjack with side bets still allow for simple blackjack, though it is a crowded market. One game inventor did joke, "Let's invent a new blackjack game called Just Freakin' Blackjack - one bet - that's it."

So - A new game must:
1. Be SIMPLE, FUN and Easy to play; Baccarat is THE most popular game in Asia and other "new" markets precisely because there is NO head-pounding strategy decisions. Players cannot misplay a hand, and dealer does all the "work."

2. If strategy/player decisions are involved, it must be easy:
- Blackjack: hit or stand - to close in on 21 without going over.
- Pai Gow: make the two best sides you can.
- Texas Hold 'em bonus/Ultimate: raise if it looks like you have a winner, else just check.
- Two Cards High: make a three-card baccarat hand of Zero from five cards dealt.

3. Discreet house edge:
- No commission (EZ Baccarat and EZ Pai Gow are considered improvements to their commission-based equivelants)
- If a dealer's hand qualifier is used, let it be RARE (Queen high non-qualifier push in EZpg = once in every 58 hands; EZ Baccarat banker's push = ~43 hands or so.) Partial ANTE pay qualifiers may occur more frequently, because the player still "gets something."

4. Bonus bet jackpots and progressives: get really lucky, be a big winner.

ALL of these things make a game simple, seemingly fair, and exciting.

MATURE gaming markets have greater activity in complex, higher skill games: Poker room poker, Pai Gow Poker, etc. East and West Coast, and Nevada in the U.S.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
April 13th, 2011 at 3:42:57 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Switch is evaluating my game and offer honest and constructive criticism. Switch is also placing 14 Switch 21 tables in Colorado next week.


A very good game, love it. Good for him. And a very good man to review a BJ type game.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

  • Jump to: