Clone of Galaxy's All/Tall/Small Bonus Craps bet
October 15th, 2021 at 9:45:45 AM
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The most surprising thing I saw during my recent G2E trip wasn't at the show, but live in several casinos.
A "new" craps side bet that is almost identical to Galaxy Gaming's Bonus Craps bet (a.k.a. All/Tall/Small). There's nothing on the felt to suggest who distributes the bet, or what the bet is actually called. These photos are from O'Sheas, Mirage, and Linq.
As you can see, the payouts are the same as the current standard ATS payouts. But the big difference, as seen in the first two photos, but curiously missing from the Linq photo, is a second set of spots and markers.
What that second set does is, once the Little or Big bet is completed, it is paid, and immediately restarts. No need to wait for resolution of the Boom (All) bet, since that has it's own set of markers. Additionally, once the Boom bet is completed, both it and whichever of the Little or Big bets also completed are also paid and restart, even though the other of the Big or Little bets may already have several numbers marked off.
Frankly, I think that somewhat minor change would be enough to get around the patent. (Take note, all you game designers. Patents are flimsy at best.)
But that made it even more interesting that it's missing from the Linq layout - which negates my comment about a minor change getting around patents. You'd think that if it was only partially implemented, all the casinos from one company would either have it or not.
Also, I would have hoped that this alternate version would also ignore all come out rolls. That would mean the bet is live for the duration of the shooter, and not need constant replacing whenever there is a come out seven. The house edge is the same either way. But I didn't see it play that way.
A "new" craps side bet that is almost identical to Galaxy Gaming's Bonus Craps bet (a.k.a. All/Tall/Small). There's nothing on the felt to suggest who distributes the bet, or what the bet is actually called. These photos are from O'Sheas, Mirage, and Linq.
As you can see, the payouts are the same as the current standard ATS payouts. But the big difference, as seen in the first two photos, but curiously missing from the Linq photo, is a second set of spots and markers.
What that second set does is, once the Little or Big bet is completed, it is paid, and immediately restarts. No need to wait for resolution of the Boom (All) bet, since that has it's own set of markers. Additionally, once the Boom bet is completed, both it and whichever of the Little or Big bets also completed are also paid and restart, even though the other of the Big or Little bets may already have several numbers marked off.
Frankly, I think that somewhat minor change would be enough to get around the patent. (Take note, all you game designers. Patents are flimsy at best.)
But that made it even more interesting that it's missing from the Linq layout - which negates my comment about a minor change getting around patents. You'd think that if it was only partially implemented, all the casinos from one company would either have it or not.
Also, I would have hoped that this alternate version would also ignore all come out rolls. That would mean the bet is live for the duration of the shooter, and not need constant replacing whenever there is a come out seven. The house edge is the same either way. But I didn't see it play that way.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, irrational, childish rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 15th, 2021 at 11:26:08 AM
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It's from Scientific Gaming. Each just copies each others stuff now.
ZCore13
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
October 15th, 2021 at 3:28:05 PM
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Sigh. Yeah thats confirmation of this comment:Quote: Zcore13It's from Scientific Gaming. Each just copies each others stuff now.
link to original post
Quote: DJTeddyBear(Take note, all you game designers. Patents are flimsy at best.)
link to original post
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, irrational, childish rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 21st, 2025 at 11:21:10 AM
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I recently got contacted by email by an aspiring game inventor.
My reply probably could benefit all wannabe game inventors, so I thought Id share.
My reply included a link to this thread which is why I put the reply here.
My reply:
I've used two lawyers that specialize in casino gaming patents:
Rich Newman, based in Last Vegas. https://www.newmanlawlv.com/
Jon Muskin, based in Philadelphia. http://www.patentstrademarks.com/attorneys/jon-muskin
Both will help you and/or create the provisional patent as well as the patent itself - for a price. They'll also do an initial free consultation.
Don't be surprised if either, or both, tell you that the game is not unique enough therefore not patentable, or that if you get the patent, that it's not enforceable.
I said in my first reply to you that I question the value of patents. One example is the Bonus Craps side bet that some people call the All-Tall-Small bet. It's distributed by Galaxy Gaming, one of the bigger gaming suppliers. Scientific Gaming has a similar (identical!) bet called Boom Or Bust. (FYI: Scientific Gaming used to be ShuffleMaster, and is now called Light & Wonder.) Surely Galaxy has a patent. Why not sue Scientific? Either fear of losing, or the cost of the lawsuit makes it not worth it. Scientific IS a bigger company, and may have more money or lawyers to throw at it.
I created a post about it on the Wizard's forum in October, 2021.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/36549-clone-of-galaxys-all-tall-small-bonus-craps-bet/
---
I'm not sure what you mean by 'prototype.' In the traditional manufacturing sense, it means to produce a single copy of something that will be mass produced, so that the item can be tested.
For a casino game, you need to produce everything that you'll need yourself. But what that is, depends on where you are in the process. For example, for the card games I created, I merely created paper version of the player's betting section of the felt layout. That's all that is needed for a demo in a sales meeting. Plus all the documentation, Excel documents, etc.
But if you get to the point where they will give you a 'field trial', you'll have to get (and pay for) all the materials that they'll need to run the game. In most cases, that's the full table felt, player rule cards, and any special equipment needed.
---
Are you in the casino industry? Do you have friends in the industry? Do you live close to a casino?
I might be wrong, but I really believe that the only way to break in is by already having some contact with casino higher-ups. Outsiders have zero chance.
Hope I havent totally killed your dream.
Best of luck.
My reply probably could benefit all wannabe game inventors, so I thought Id share.
My reply included a link to this thread which is why I put the reply here.
My reply:
I've used two lawyers that specialize in casino gaming patents:
Rich Newman, based in Last Vegas. https://www.newmanlawlv.com/
Jon Muskin, based in Philadelphia. http://www.patentstrademarks.com/attorneys/jon-muskin
Both will help you and/or create the provisional patent as well as the patent itself - for a price. They'll also do an initial free consultation.
Don't be surprised if either, or both, tell you that the game is not unique enough therefore not patentable, or that if you get the patent, that it's not enforceable.
I said in my first reply to you that I question the value of patents. One example is the Bonus Craps side bet that some people call the All-Tall-Small bet. It's distributed by Galaxy Gaming, one of the bigger gaming suppliers. Scientific Gaming has a similar (identical!) bet called Boom Or Bust. (FYI: Scientific Gaming used to be ShuffleMaster, and is now called Light & Wonder.) Surely Galaxy has a patent. Why not sue Scientific? Either fear of losing, or the cost of the lawsuit makes it not worth it. Scientific IS a bigger company, and may have more money or lawyers to throw at it.
I created a post about it on the Wizard's forum in October, 2021.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/36549-clone-of-galaxys-all-tall-small-bonus-craps-bet/
---
I'm not sure what you mean by 'prototype.' In the traditional manufacturing sense, it means to produce a single copy of something that will be mass produced, so that the item can be tested.
For a casino game, you need to produce everything that you'll need yourself. But what that is, depends on where you are in the process. For example, for the card games I created, I merely created paper version of the player's betting section of the felt layout. That's all that is needed for a demo in a sales meeting. Plus all the documentation, Excel documents, etc.
But if you get to the point where they will give you a 'field trial', you'll have to get (and pay for) all the materials that they'll need to run the game. In most cases, that's the full table felt, player rule cards, and any special equipment needed.
---
Are you in the casino industry? Do you have friends in the industry? Do you live close to a casino?
I might be wrong, but I really believe that the only way to break in is by already having some contact with casino higher-ups. Outsiders have zero chance.
Hope I havent totally killed your dream.
Best of luck.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, irrational, childish rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 21st, 2025 at 5:43:30 PM
permalink
This is spot on. Especially the emphasis on not having to spend serious money, it is easy to go all out, especially on your first game (patent + GLI are the big expenses), which probably won't see the light of the day in a casino. Be the confident in the math, have some basic documentation (Rules of Play + Math), and some sort of layout or betting positions and you can pitch it.
