Game Design Career
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Quote: HokusPokusHi, I've been trying very hard to get some information from the forum and I've been somewhat successful. How does someone design gambling games for a living? Who should I learn from? What skills do I need to succeed in this industry? Is designing new gambling games profitable in Covid times? What's the competition look like? How much work is it vs designing a tabletop game? I'm sure there are plenty of regulations involving laws around gambling games, but I'm more curious about what it takes to succeed, not the requirements since there is no point in getting a game inside a casino if it's just going to fail.
Good luck, it is harder than it sounds but at least you are willing to dig into it. If you are thinking table games there are a couple books out there written by members of this forum. Video games are probably a little tougher as you need to find something that hasn't been done and patent it. Not that it is hard but you will have the patent expenses before you are able to sell it or license it.
Dan was a well respected and somewhat outspoken member here as well as a successful game designer.
He passed away rather suddenly almost four years ago.
I miss you, Dan. 😥
With the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.Quote: HokusPokus...Is it just too difficult to think of a new game?
It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.
Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.
Quote: charliepatrickWith the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.
It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.
Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.
Great post.
Quote: WizardI think the number of people who get a regular paycheck from an employer to design games is zero. Somebody might say Roger Snow, but he does a lot more than that. You have to create and market your games. Dan's book is a good place to start or my own Game Inventor's Corner.
I agree with you. Especially on tables. Every casino has the same half dozen games. Some casinos have some interesting one-off/rare games, but those games aren't placed nearly enough for someone to be employed to continually develop new ones. I really didn't expect this when I started collecting chips. Being from the Midwest - and SD /ND /IA being places with unique games - I expected more of that variety. It just isn't there.
Roger has what I think is my favorite presence on LinkedIn. I don't think I've ever seen an executive openly have that much fun at work. And I have no doubt that he relishes his position as SG's poet laureate.
Quote: charliepatrickWith the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.
It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.
Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.
New Table Games are not hard to invent, but Very-Hard to get it going and Super-Hard to get any installations.
I have 200+ of them today. e.g. LegendOfNewTableGames.com
New Table Games are cheap now are days ($50-$500 per table per month) but expensive to get it going. e.g. $30,000+
So it is very hard to make money if you don't have a lot of installations.
BTW. My New Table Games are from $50-$300 per table per month.
Also Read:
* Meet Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games). http://bit.ly/2KiadqT
* The POGG Interviews: Stephen Au-Yeung – Creator of Casino Hold’em®. http://bit.ly/2Zo2Gvs
* Never Ending News: NeverEndingNews.com
Good luck to ALL the New Table Games inventors out there.
THE TOP-3 Legend of New Table Games®: see IMAGE.
* Stephen Au-Yeung (THE Chinese Man):
Casino Hold'em® | Unlimited® Blackjack™ | Raise'em® Poker-Plus™ | Roulette 18® | Contrast® Bonus-Baccarat™ | Ten-20® Bonus-Blackjack™ and 200+ Others...
* Derek Webb (English Man with Glasses):
Three Card Poker™ / 21+3™ and Others...
* Geoff Hall (The Other English Man):
Free-Bet Blackjack™ / Blackjack-Switch™ and Others...
Quote: charliepatrickLike most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.
I'm really hoping that "graft" was a typo but then again, maybe it isn't. :)
Good question. Unfortunately, that's hard to say.Quote: HokusPokusI'm more curious about what it takes to succeed, not the requirements since there is no point in getting a game inside a casino if it's just going to fail.
While the gamblers must enjoy it, figuring out what people will enjoy is a challenge in itself. For example, I totally do not get Baccarat. In the low stakes, where the dealer does all the work, it's about as exciting as a coin flip. In the higher stakes, a player gets to handle the cards, squeezing them, as if to bluff the dealer while deciding to take another card. Hello! The rules of Baccarat already determine if the player gets another card or not. But people seem to love it.
But I digress.
You're right. It makes no sense to put a new game in a casino if it's going to fail. Unfortunately, it's really hard to get into a casino, and you won't really know if it will succeed until it's in a casino. So you're better off focusing on what's needed to get it into a casino.
Most important is the profitability. The players need to enjoy it enough to play it, while losing enough so that the game makes more money than the game it has replaced.
Next most important is simplicity. It needs to be easily described, with simple rules. If there's any difficulty in either of those areas, players won't understand it and/or dealers won't want to explain it. You might think it's their job to explain it, but if they have to slow the game down to explain stuff too often or for too long, forget it. Dealers can kill games that they don't like.
Hope this helps.
Wiz -Quote: Wizard... my own Game Inventor's Corner.
Do you mean the Game Inventor's Corner here on WoV? This thread IS in that area, so I'm thinking you mean something else.
On that note, do you still have your website from your days as a math / game inventor consultant? Even if you're not doing that anymore, there was a lot of good info there.
I would hope that it still exists, even as a side directory on WoV or WoO.
I can't find it anywhere...
Quote: charliepatrickWith the right mindset it's certainly possible to think of new games (probably it helps if you can analyse them yourself as then quicker to iron out some of the technical details and spot the dogs). The issue is whether the concept works with the public and can be marketed.
It might be easier to think of pop music songs and how some singers have success and others, many others, fall by the wayside. Even experienced record companies don't always know the hits before they happen.
Like most inventive/creative businesses, there's skill and graft but also a degree of luck.
You sound very smart, & it makes sense to need the ability to analyze games to be able to create new games that are good. What do you mean by if the game can be marketed, surely you can market any game? Your analogy of game design as similar to pop music actually scares me. Your telling me the industry can't tell if a game will be successful makes me assume the industry doesn't know how to analyze games effectively. If the buyer doesn't know if my game will make them money, then how am I supposed to stand out from the crowd? What do you mean by graft?
Quote: WizardI think the number of people who get a regular paycheck from an employer to design games is zero. Somebody might say Roger Snow, but he does a lot more than that. You have to create and market your games. Dan's book is a good place to start or my own Game Inventor's Corner.
I don't like the sound of also marketing my games. So in tabletop games often your manufacture & distributor will market your game with you, as a group effort. It's already difficult to market a game to the consumer, I don't even what to think about what marketing a game to casinos looks like. Maybe I should just quit now.
Quote: rdw4potusI agree with you. Especially on tables. Every casino has the same half dozen games. Some casinos have some interesting one-off/rare games, but those games aren't placed nearly enough for someone to be employed to continually develop new ones. I really didn't expect this when I started collecting chips. Being from the Midwest - and SD /ND /IA being places with unique games - I expected more of that variety. It just isn't there.
Roger has what I think is my favorite presence on LinkedIn. I don't think I've ever seen an executive openly have that much fun at work. And I have no doubt that he relishes his position as SG's poet laureate.
Chip collecting is a cool hobby, the chips could be worthless if the casino changes to a different chip type.
Quote: DJTeddyBearGood question. Unfortunately, that's hard to say.
While the gamblers must enjoy it, figuring out what people will enjoy is a challenge in itself. For example, I totally do not get Baccarat. In the low stakes, where the dealer does all the work, it's about as exciting as a coin flip. In the higher stakes, a player gets to handle the cards, squeezing them, as if to bluff the dealer while deciding to take another card. Hello! The rules of Baccarat already determine if the player gets another card or not. But people seem to love it.
But I digress.
You're right. It makes no sense to put a new game in a casino if it's going to fail. Unfortunately, it's really hard to get into a casino, and you won't really know if it will succeed until it's in a casino. So you're better off focusing on what's needed to get it into a casino.
Most important is the profitability. The players need to enjoy it enough to play it, while losing enough so that the game makes more money than the game it has replaced.
Next most important is simplicity. It needs to be easily described, with simple rules. If there's any difficulty in either of those areas, players won't understand it and/or dealers won't want to explain it. You might think it's their job to explain it, but if they have to slow the game down to explain stuff too often or for too long, forget it. Dealers can kill games that they don't like.
Hope this helps.
A game that makes the casino more money sounds like a requirement, thank you for sharing. As for your requirement about game simplicity, most current tabletop games have done away with the simplicity approach since they often don't produce engaging game experience for players. But your saying the exact opposite is true? Your explanation makes sense but what about games like Keno or Poker? Surely a dealer can't teach ultimate texas holdem in the time it takes to play a game?
Thank you.Quote: HokusPokusYou sound very smart, & it makes sense to need the ability to analyze games to be able to create new games that are good. What do you mean by if the game can be marketed, surely you can market any game? Your analogy of game design as similar to pop music actually scares me. Your telling me the industry can't tell if a game will be successful makes me assume the industry doesn't know how to analyze games effectively. If the buyer doesn't know if my game will make them money, then how am I supposed to stand out from the crowd? What do you mean by graft?
It's good to look at other industries for similarities as to what is needed to have success. Obviously one could hit the jackpot and come up with a brilliant idea that just works, a song that becomes an international hit, take a photograph that goes round the world. However realistically it is more likely to come from research, understanding what customers typically enjoy/buy.
I remember being at a cricket match once, the photographer explained the tactics the bowler was using to get the batsman out, and so he concentrated on the wicket and close fielders. Sure enough a few minutes later he got the perfect photo of the batsman being caught out, in the way he described. Yes there was some luck but it was down to planning, knowledge, an understanding of the players and the game. Of course he also needs to have the technical skills (owning the best camera/lens combination, setting the correct exposure etc.) to take the photo.
"Graft" means putting in the hours of preparation, learning the trade, getting to know the business, understanding what's already in the market.
There's a difference between the technical part (House Edge, practical implications, countability or security issues, etc.) and being able to spot a winner. The former is analytical, going through various calculations and checks - it obviously helps if you can get a feeling for these, even better if you can do the analysis yourself. The latter is a feeling that something is just right - I imagine that comes with experience.
Quote: charliepatrickThank you.
It's good to look at other industries for similarities as to what is needed to have success. Obviously one could hit the jackpot and come up with a brilliant idea that just works, a song that becomes an international hit, take a photograph that goes round the world. However realistically it is more likely to come from research, understanding what customers typically enjoy/buy.
I remember being at a cricket match once, the photographer explained the tactics the bowler was using to get the batsman out, and so he concentrated on the wicket and close fielders. Sure enough a few minutes later he got the perfect photo of the batsman being caught out, in the way he described. Yes there was some luck but it was down to planning, knowledge, an understanding of the players and the game. Of course he also needs to have the technical skills (owning the best camera/lens combination, setting the correct exposure etc.) to take the photo.
"Graft" means putting in the hours of preparation, learning the trade, getting to know the business, understanding what's already in the market.
There's a difference between the technical part (House Edge, practical implications, countability or security issues, etc.) and being able to spot a winner. The former is analytical, going through various calculations and checks - it obviously helps if you can get a feeling for these, even better if you can do the analysis yourself. The latter is a feeling that something is just right - I imagine that comes with experience.
You definitely know a lot, and you make me feel better knowing that someone can predict success with knowledge & experience. But that still doesn't change the issue of getting around casino's lack of ability to pick a winning game. So even if I am able to make a casino game that is better than the competition I'm still rolling the dice that a casino will ever install the game. Even if they do install the game, doesn't sound like it's a lot of money. Do slot machines also make a flat fee between $50-300 a month? This just sounds like chump change to what they make. Could I mentor under you, I think I need someone to teach me this industry.
I like to consider myself a reasonable photographer, but not quite to the standard needed to win camera club competitions (there's a very strong camera club in my area). I'm broadly self-taught and used to pick up tips from talks by top photographers. I learnt some of the technical side from books etc. but mainly from doing it. I know I could learn more but want to keep it a hobby which I enjoy rather than a "profession".Quote: HokusPokus...I think I need someone to teach me this industry.
If you thinking of becoming a singer I would be suggesting you consult a specialist; they may be able to train your voice (or whatever) and also give an honest opinion. If you were thinking of becoming a professional photographer then it's a tough world. You're on your own as the competition is fairly stiff and so have to learn the science and develop your own niche market. I stumbled across one, who took amazing photographs of dogs (which was what I trying to learn at the time) but because she had the ability to work well with people, this helped her take good portraits.
A successful photographer has to master their own craft, build up a reputation and then market their services. The photographers at Premier League football have worked their way up though the lower leagues.
Thus you should already have some of the skills, then develop a list of contacts and build on these through perseverance.
How old are you? What level of schooling have you completed? What job do you have now? Where in the country are you located? Can you afford tens of thousands of dollars, or at a minimum, thousands of dollars to invest with a realistic possibility of no return?
My guess is that after hearing the answers the advice will be this....
Go for your dream! But do it AFTER WORK! There are a bunch on here who have done so. BeachBumBabs. Buzzard. DJTeddyBear. Others.
As far as you asking for a ‘mentor’, these people I mentioned, and others as well, will be most happy to offer advice. Just ask virtually any question you want and you will likely get great answers here.
Quote: SOOPOO
As far as you asking for a ‘mentor’, these people I mentioned, and others as well, will be most happy to offer advice. Just ask virtually any question you want and you will likely get great answers here.
SOOPOO hit it on the head. This website has people that have been involved in about every aspect of Casino Gaming. Just keep asking questions and most of the advice you get here will help positively guide you.
Quote: SOOPOOHocus.... if I missed this info.... sorry for repeating....
How old are you? What level of schooling have you completed? What job do you have now? Where in the country are you located? Can you afford tens of thousands of dollars, or at a minimum, thousands of dollars to invest with a realistic possibility of no return?
My guess is that after hearing the answers the advice will be this....
Go for your dream! But do it AFTER WORK! There are a bunch on here who have done so. BeachBumBabs. Buzzard. DJTeddyBear. Others.
As far as you asking for a ‘mentor’, these people I mentioned, and others as well, will be most happy to offer advice. Just ask virtually any question you want and you will likely get great answers here.
Thank you for evaluating my skills. I'm 26, I have a bachelors in physiology & I am a registered as an associate clinical social worker at the department of human assistance. I live in California & I can afford tens of thousands of dollars if I save up log enough. I was planning on spending a few years learning the skills to succeed so I could have a few years of savings. You say to do this after work but that makes no sense to me because then I would have to wait years after I've retired to make casino games. Maybe my brain isn't as sharp then or maybe I just don't have the drive then. I have free time at work, plus I don't know how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me.
Quote: HokusPokusThank you for evaluating my skills. I'm 26, I have a bachelors in physiology & I am a registered as an associate clinical social worker at the department of human assistance. I live in California & I can afford tens of thousands of dollars if I save up log enough. I was planning on spending a few years learning the skills to succeed so I could have a few years of savings. You say to do this after work but that makes no sense to me because then I would have to wait years after I've retired to make casino games. Maybe my brain isn't as sharp then or maybe I just don't have the drive then. I have free time at work, plus I don't know how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me.
I think he was implying not to quit your day job to pursue this. Spend the time after working hours to pursue it. Think of it as a second job until you are successful.
Quote: DRichI think he was implying not to quit your day job to pursue this. Spend the time after working hours to pursue it. Think of it as a second job until you are successful.
Yes, that is what I was planning on doing. I can afford to quit my job but I also would like to make some extra money.
Quote: HokusPokusThank you for evaluating my skills. I'm 26, I have a bachelors in physiology & I am a registered as an associate clinical social worker at the department of human assistance. I live in California & I can afford tens of thousands of dollars if I save up log enough. I was planning on spending a few years learning the skills to succeed so I could have a few years of savings. You say to do this after work but that makes no sense to me because then I would have to wait years after I've retired to make casino games. Maybe my brain isn't as sharp then or maybe I just don't have the drive then. I have free time at work, plus I don't know how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me.
You seem like you have a reasonable plan. I did mean 'don't give up your job' as opposed to waiting until your present career was over! I believe people on this forum use the phrase 'side gig'.
One of the problems with asking for help here, if it becomes even a little specific, is the need to have your idea patented before putting it out in a public forum. And that costs money.
The one worrisome part is "how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me". I'm an old guy, 60. My job 'took a toll on me' for 35 years. But I NEVER worried about not being able to 'keep doing my job'. I've never been a game designer, but have followed the trials and tribulations of those on here who have. IT IS NOT EASY! If you are having trouble coping with a regular 9-5 job, I think an independent game design attempt will be FAR harder.
Perhaps you just need a different 'regular' job?
Quote: DJTeddyBearWiz -
Do you mean the Game Inventor's Corner here on WoV? This thread IS in that area, so I'm thinking you mean something else.
I mean the corner at Wizard of Odds.
Quote:On that note, do you still have your website from your days as a math / game inventor consultant? Even if you're not doing that anymore, there was a lot of good info there.
I would hope that it still exists, even as a side directory on WoV or WoO.
I can't find it anywhere...
I moved my consulting site to www.lollipopguild.org/.
Quote: SOOPOOYou seem like you have a reasonable plan. I did mean 'don't give up your job' as opposed to waiting until your present career was over! I believe people on this forum use the phrase 'side gig'.
One of the problems with asking for help here, if it becomes even a little specific, is the need to have your idea patented before putting it out in a public forum. And that costs money.
The one worrisome part is "how long I can keep doing my job before it starts to take a toll on me". I'm an old guy, 60. My job 'took a toll on me' for 35 years. But I NEVER worried about not being able to 'keep doing my job'. I've never been a game designer, but have followed the trials and tribulations of those on here who have. IT IS NOT EASY! If you are having trouble coping with a regular 9-5 job, I think an independent game design attempt will be FAR harder.
Perhaps you just need a different 'regular' job?
You might be right but what jobs did you work? I need a rewarding experience at work to get me by, it's why I choose to be a social worker because I want to make a difference. I have been thinking about going back to school and getting my LCSW or a master's degree so I could become a therapist. I don't feel like my job is currently rewarding at all. I was looking at becoming a game designer as if it was something I could learn on the side while working, something like night school only I don't want to go into debt over a career change.
Quote: WizardQuote: DJTeddyBearWiz -
Do you mean the Game Inventor's Corner here on WoV? This thread IS in that area, so I'm thinking you mean something else.
I mean the corner at Wizard of Odds.
I moved my consulting site to www.lollipopguild.org/.
Perhaps I will contact you to do math work. Could you do the math for me on what profit I could expect to make if it takes me 3 years to make a casino game?
Quote: heatmapi wish i could climb that many peaks im jelly
Same, but I'd like to try one day. Never been on a mountain before.
Quote: HokusPokus
Perhaps I will contact you to do math work. Could you do the math for me on what profit I could expect to make if it takes me 3 years to make a casino game?
Good luck with that. You probably need to expect to pay thousands of dollars for patents and math before you will even know if the game is going to able to get in a casino.
Quote: HokusPokusYou might be right but what jobs did you work? I need a rewarding experience at work to get me by, it's why I choose to be a social worker because I want to make a difference. I have been thinking about going back to school and getting my LCSW or a master's degree so I could become a therapist. I don't feel like my job is currently rewarding at all. I was looking at becoming a game designer as if it was something I could learn on the side while working, something like night school only I don't want to go into debt over a career change.
I’m a doctor... anesthesiologist. I haven’t had a non medical job for 35 years. I felt like I ‘made a difference’. It sounds like to me that you should focus on getting your next degree, so you can get the job you will find rewarding. I think the part time game designers here were firmly established in their ‘regular’ jobs before undertaking the cost and time required to design a game, and actually even get a trial in a real casino.
The math helped you asked for comes at a cost. Wizard and a few others do that work, but I would be stunned if they did it on a contingent basis! The forum will help for free with the occasional simple or interesting question, but not the entire math analysis of a new game.
Quote: HokusPokusCould you do the math for me on what profit I could expect to make if it takes me 3 years to make a casino game?
Ditto.Quote: DRichGood luck with that. You probably need to expect to pay thousands of dollars for patents and math before you will even know if the game is going to able to get in a casino.
Your comment makes me think you haven't really been paying attention to what we've been saying.
There are plenty of people here who will run the math for a new game that they've seen. Some will even do it for a new game concept. And they usually get the math right. But that's not the same as creating a math report and putting a reputation behind it's accuracy. Few people will do that. Of those that will, they don't come cheap.
For what it's worth, there are multiple steps involved in getting a new game into a casino. The odds of success for any step is minimal, and there isn't any step skipping.
Preliminary steps include the math, but also a patent, game description, table layout, and marketing materials. And maybe other things I'm overlooking.
A game description includes how to briefly explain the game to a player, more detail that could be incorporated into a rules hand-out card, and step-by-step of every point and procedure that the dealer must follow.
Only once you have all that do you have something that *MIGHT* be ready to present to a casino game distributor.
Few games get a meeting with a game distributor.
Of those that do, few get deals with the distributor.
Of those that do, few get presented to casino management for consideration.
Of those that do, few get offered a field trial, pending regulatory issues.
Of those that do, some will fail the regulatory requirements.
Of those that pass, few actually get the field trial.
Of those that do, few get successful results.
Of those that do, few get multiple installs.
Of those that do, few last long.
Of those that do, few get widespread distribution.
Of those that do, few generate any sizable return for the inventor.
Of those that do, few turn a profit for the inventor.
A casino insider, such as an employee of a casino or game distributor, might be able to skip the distributor step, but that's about it.
Note that the income part of those steps doesn't begin until the multiple installs step begins, and the first installs will get relatively low payments.
Also note that some of the steps will require fees and expenses. But these should be paid by the distributor (if you didn't skip that step), which will then be deducted from the payments before you get your cut.
Get the math report on a contingency? You’d have a better chance of finding an angel investor who wants to get into the casino business in some small way, and isn’t worried about losing a few grand.
---
I may be accused of tooting my own horn here, but I created Poker For Roulette, a roulette side bet, and Pick A Card, a completely new card game. You can get details for both at my website, http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com
I mention this because I have brief descriptions, as well as detailed descriptions, complete dealer instructions, and down-loadable literature including rule cards. I created all that before I had a meeting with a game distributor.
What my site does NOT feature is a web version of the game. Maybe I'm biased, but I think if you need to create a web version so players get a better feel for the game, then the game isn't simple enough.
Full disclosure: While I had a deal with Galaxy Gaming for my Poker For Roulette side bet, they never produced results. And I've never gotten past shopping my Pick A Card game to a distributor. In other words, I have limited experience, but no success. So take what I say with that in mind.
I bet DJ does not regret for one minute the time and money he put in to trying to make his dream a reality. I’m not sure if this is a ‘dream’ for you, or you just thought it was a better way to make a living than your current job. If it is the former, then I think you could still try in your after work time to work on it. If it is the latter, then I’d say give it up.
Summary... if it is your dream, and not trying will be something you may regret the rest of your life, then go for it, even though the most likely result is failure.
If it is just trying to find a ‘good job’, look elsewhere!
You'd win that bet. No regrets, AT ALL.Quote: SOOPOOI bet DJ does not regret for one minute the time and money he put in to trying to make his dream a reality.
Oh, sure, I spent a bunch of money that my wife would have preferred that we put towards fixing up the house and stuff, but even she doesn't regret it. She agrees with me that trying and failing, is far better than not trying, followed by the constant, lingering feeling of, "What if...?"
And I made friends with a bunch of people, both online, and in person during my various Vegas visits to promote my games, that I never would have met.
And I still miss Dan.
I've done maths for a couple of games and an independent analysis is one of those preliminary steps that has to be paid for. All of this is part of the preparation and marketing that needs to be done, covering the legal and technical aspects prior to getting the game into the marketplace.
Some game designers go to various conventions (Las Vegas, London etc.) where new games can be shown and also for networking. I've attended some in the UK and can see how the costs could mount up. (I'm guessing it's much easier for those already in Las Vegas!)
Quote: DRichGood luck with that. You probably need to expect to pay thousands of dollars for patents and math before you will even know if the game is going to able to get in a casino.
Why do you say that? Why would a game get that far and never make it into a casino?
Quote: DRichGood luck with that. You probably need to expect to pay thousands of dollars for patents and math before you will even know if the game is going to able to get in a casino.
Because you’re gonna need all that before a casino will even give you time of day.Quote: HokusPokusWhy do you say that? Why would a game get that far and never make it into a casino?
Quote: HokusPokusHi guys, I'm getting a little overwhelmed with the direction of the conversation. Let me clear some things up. I don't have a gambling game for anyone to analyze. I was asking for some projection of what income I can expect to make going down this path. How much can I realistically sell a game to a casino for? How many installs of the game can I expect to get. I'm sure there are plenty of expenses that I need to know but the high in most concerned about is how much money I can expect to make. Is there more money in the machines? I was thinking of making a table game and then making a gaming machine out of it if the machines make more money? Btw, does anyone just decide to make a new game without learning from the pros? I'd very much appreciate any advice, thank you.
Finally an easy question! The most likely answer to your ‘income’ question is ZERO. You read DJ’s story, right?
No one can answer ‘how much’ for a game they have no idea about. Blackjack Switch made it into a bunch of casinos. There are some BJ side bets you will only find in one or two. I highly doubt any of the designers will make public their ‘per table’ fee to a casino. Maybe someone will give you an approximate. As far as how many ‘installs’, I think that is something you may be able to find out in a specific location for a specific game.
Quote: HokusPokusPerhaps I will contact you to do math work. Could you do the math for me on what profit I could expect to make if it takes me 3 years to make a casino game?
Thank you for your interest, but I know as well as anybody the low chances of even good games ever making any money. So I'm afraid the answer to your question is a firm no.
I had dozens of would-be inventors approach me over the years who made a similar proposition -- I'll give you a share if you do the math and help me design the game. It's like asking an architect to wait to be paid for his blueprints until after all the units in the building are rented, only the building is being built on quicksand and has a 99% chance of sinking before the building is completed. The answer for me was always no as well.Quote: WizardThank you for your interest, but I know as well as anybody the low chances of even good games ever making any money. So I'm afraid the answer to your question is a firm no.
Quote: HokusPokusWhy do you say that? Why would a game get that far and never make it into a casino?
Even if your game gets a trial install in a casino it is still likely to make $0. I helped a company get their electronic table game into a casino and it failed miserably. They probably had over $100,000 invested in it between design work, patents, software engineering, legal fees, etc. The game lasted for about 45 days on the casino floor before being pulled. As far as I know it never had another install.
Remember, there are a lot more slot machines in a casino than there are table games. Very few independent game developers have been successful in slot machines. I was fortunate enough to get about 300 video poker games installed in casinos but my game also failed. If you find success with a slot machine the opportunity to make money is available but very difficult. I was able to make a little money by licensing my game to a manufacturer that was willing to guarantee a minimum royalty deal.
Quote: HokusPokusHi guys, I'm getting a little overwhelmed with the direction of the conversation. Let me clear some things up. I don't have a gambling game for anyone to analyze.
I would start by having a game.
Quote:I was asking for some projection of what income I can expect to make going down this path.
Um....I guess that depends on how you look at it. If you look at it in terms of mean average, per game, that actually makes it into casinos...I guess that's not an awful number. If you look at it in terms of frequency, then you can probably expect to lose money. It's all home runs and strike outs, from what can tell, and it's usually a strikeout.
Quote:How much can I realistically sell a game to a casino for?
Realistically? Realistically, you acting as an individual won't get your game into many casinos. You and your distributor will do that, but that's assuming the distributor believes in the game and is able to sell it...which is probably much worse than a coin flip. You might realistically expect to get a casino, or a few casinos, to field trial your game for free (and spend a lot of money getting even to that point) which is further than the majority of games even make it.
Quote:How many installs of the game can I expect to get.
Expect? In terms of frequency, zero...closely followed by one and two.
Quote:I'm sure there are plenty of expenses that I need to know but the high in most concerned about is how much money I can expect to make.
The most probable result is that you will lose tens of thousands of dollars and eventually give up.
Quote:Is there more money in the machines? I was thinking of making a table game and then making a gaming machine out of it if the machines make more money? Btw, does anyone just decide to make a new game without learning from the pros? I'd very much appreciate any advice, thank you.
There's more money in the machines, sure, there are more machines in a casino, more people play them and they have a higher house edge. Is there more money in machine design? I wouldn't know. I imagine many slot machine designers just work more directly for the company, but this would be a much better question for DRich.
As far as making a table game and turning it into a physical machine in the casino...not counting bartop (and stadium) Blackjack, the only machine implementations that I know of to have any real success are Craps and Roulette...two of the most popular Table Games of all-time. I might have seen a Three-Card Poker machine, like, once. I think I've seen a handful of Baccarat machines...but I only specifically remember two of them.***
In order for a table game to translate successfully to a machine game, I guess what I'm saying is that you'd first have to have a widely-known and mega popular table game which, with all due respect, is highly unlikely.
***I also think I may have seen one Let it Ride machine game in a casino. I'm 90% confident I did, but I wouldn't swear to it in court.
Quote: teliotI had dozens of would-be inventors approach me over the years who made a similar proposition -- I'll give you a share if you do the math and help me design the game. It's like asking an architect to wait to be paid for his blueprints until after all the units in the building are rented, only the building is being built on quicksand and has a 99% chance of sinking before the building is completed. The answer for me was always no as well.
You should work for me. They've only offered you 10% of the zero in profits they will make...I'll offer you 25% of zero.
Quote: Mission146
There's more money in the machines, sure, there are more machines in a casino, more people play them and they have a higher house edge. Is there more money in machine design? I wouldn't know. I imagine many slot machine designers just work more directly for the company, but this would be a much better question for DRich.
In order for a table game to translate successfully to a machine game, I guess what I'm saying is that you'd first have to have a widely-known and mega popular table game which, with all due respect, is highly unlikely.
***I also think I may have seen one Let it Ride machine game in a casino. I'm 90% confident I did, but I wouldn't swear to it in court.
An independent can definitely get a deal with a slot manufacturer if the right game is presented and protected. I was fortunate to license a game to IGT, LED Gaming licensed Multi-Strike to IGT, and Eugene Jarvis licensed Super Times Poker to IGT. Obviously Ernie Moody is the only person that I know got rich licensing to IGT but he invested hundreds of thousands of his own of dollars before IGT took Triple Play poker.
I worked on a video version of Caribbean Stud Poker in the1990's but it was pretty much a failure.
