Poker For Roulette - side bet

Quote: Knuckleball3

I just wanted to chime in and describe the interesting aspects of this entire thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this throughout the months, and find the numerous steps you have to take to get your invention into the market very interesting. I just want to add that I like your idea, and not being a roulette player I would def give it a go for a while to play a poker type side bet. Continued success and good luck DJTeddy

Thanks, Knuckleball!


---


I created a new thread regarding a math issue I'm having. It surfaced when I started creating alternate results based on a 4 spin result.
That thread is here.

The 4 spin result thing was partially because I simply wanted to have it as an option. Thanks to everyone who helped me get the bone out of my head that was causing me problems.


The reason it suddenly became a priority is because I got an inquiry from a game distributor in Europe for 4 spin math. Obviously, at the same time, he asked me about European wheel single zero math, for both 4 and 5 spin results.

Both of these requests have been completed. I have added a page for the 4 spin math, and included results for double and single zero on this new page as well as the original math page.

Note that the new page is named "Math - Four" and the other math page is now named "Math - Five". Also, these pages just show the raw probability of each combination.


The next step will be to come up with pay tables for these three new sets of math.

The last step will be to create simulations for all of these situations. That's going the hardest part. I plan to design it so that the 4 and 5 spin double zero simulations will show results for the same 250 million spins, while the single zero simulations also use those same 250 million spins, but ignoring any spin that is double zero.

I'm toying with the idea of also doing a three spin version, but am unconvinced that there would be enough diversity to justify compelling payouts. Then again, I have the same worries about the 4 spin version.


Anyway, here's a link to my Poker For Roulette website.

HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT........PLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLT!!!

i wouldnt play it! XP

The following comments were made in this thread. I'm responding to them here.

Quote: buzzpaff

Quote:

Each combination of all Red, Black, Odd, Even, High, Low . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Each combination of all One Column, One Dozen . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8

It took me a minute or two to figure theses out. Not really poker hands Might game be made simpler without them.
Just asking, not criticizing !

They are an extension of what I had originally conceived of for "Flush".

Flush, obviously, would be 5 red, or 5 black. But that would be exactly the same odds and frequency as 5 even or 5 odd or 5 high or 5 low. Why should those be excluded?

While I'm at it, if I'm using Roulette type bets, might as well include the columns and dozens. Yeah, on paper it takes a moment to understand. Looking at a history, or actually playing it, it's far more obvious.

Quote: buzzpaff

Quote:

0 and 00 are wild when completing a Straight, or a Four- or Five-of-a-Kind.

What would a pay table look like if the above were eliminated and zero's were truly wild ?

With 1 to 1 for a pair or a set ?

Fully wild, there are just too damn many winners. In my first version math, I made them wild with a pair or better. It's evolved since then to the point today where it mimics Pai Gow's partial wild joker.

Of course, if a casino or game distributor inquires, I'd be happy to work out the math for any specific wild scenario.

Those comments were in response to seeing my brochures:
Tri-Fold Brochure. This is just a basic description, designed to give a casino or game distributor an introduction.
Rules Card. This is designed as a rule card for the table, and/or a take-away for players. It currently has digital Post-It notes attached, notes meant for casinos and game distributor.

As luck would have it, I recently discovered an error in the Excel document that extends out the pay tables. Although it sounds simple, that document is actually rather complex. During one of my many "What Ifs?", playing with the pay table and rule options, I introduced an error, and only found it recently.

I just got done uploading the changes.

Looks good, but rack cards are usually 4x9. If you're going to send that to a printer that's the size they'll expect.

And for heaven's sake, take the "disadvantages" section off your brochure.

And for heaven's sake, take the "disadvantages" section off your brochure.

Best advice on this thread. PLEASE do so.

As I was driving to work this morning, it occurred to me that I should have provided another link to the Poker For Roulette home page.

Quote: MathExtremist

Looks good, but rack cards are usually 4x9.

I know that, but I wanted something that would stand out a little. Also, this size made it easier for me to produce proofs.

The printer I've been using for about 6 years, www.OvernightPrints.com, does a fantastic job, and charges almost the same price for 5.5x8.5 as 4x9. On their site, they're listed under "Post cards". Note: The name is something of a misnomer. They charge a hefty premium for jobs that are needed overnight.

Quote: MathExtremist

And for heaven's sake, take the "disadvantages" section off your brochure.

I think it's a mistake to not mention it, because it shows that I've been trying to find a down-side. The assumption is that any I've found, have already been fixed, when possible. All that remains, is the one that can't easily be fixed.

Plus, I've seen 'disadvantages' on websites for other new games.

While never using the term "disadvantage", this problem is addressed in the Side Action section of my Casino Advice page.

Your objection is certainly appreciated. I'll re-word the brochure to include the planned Side Action system.

Okay, but do any of the games with "disadvantages" sections on their websites have any actual casino placements? I mean, the web page for 3CP is half a page long and certainly doesn't say anything bad about the game, and there are 1600 tables out:
SMI's Three Card Poker page.

Also, for examples of rack cards, see Cache Creek's rack cards.

I thought the idea was to get your game onto the casino floor and let the players make the ultimate decision !!
By advertising any disadvantage, you are giving an excuse to a decision maker who might already be inclined
to reject a new game. Honesty is the best policy, but you are going beyond common sense.

Points well taken. I'll remove those comments tonight.


Regarding the size of the rack card: The 4x9 standard, I believe, is so they can be put into a rack - the same size display as will hold tri-fold brochures.

If a casino wants it to fit into their rack, no problem. I'd be happy to design anything they want, or provide logos and let them do the design work if they so choose. But as an advertising piece, one that I'll be personally handing to people, and not merely putting in a display rack, I want a size that is significantly different than the tri-fold brochure.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Points well taken. I'll remove those comments tonight.

It's a good move to remove them - the casinos will try and spot plenty of disadvantages, if they can, without you having to point any out to them :-)

In fact, I think that your 'disadvantage' is actually an 'advantage', from the casino perspective, as you can state that players are 'hooked in' for several spins thus remaining longer at the table to see the outcome of this exciting bet ...etc etc ...

Although I didn't upload it yet, but here's a preview of the change I'm making.

This is the bottom of that center panel of the tri-fold brochure.

Old:

New:

Waddaya think?

The following is from this post, in a different thread. Because I made mention, and provided a link, the conversation started to talk about Poker For Roulette, and the recent changes:

Quote: buzzpaff

Just looked at website PAYOFFS : Lists only poker hands.
LITERATURE : List poker payoffs , plus payoffs for red, black, even, odd, dozens ????

And three posts later:

Quote: buzzpaff

Seems a real improvement. Only concern is whether bettors will really understand wild cards only used in starights, flushes, etc DO I understand 2 wild cards plus 6, 7, 8 = a set of 8's and not a straight ?

Buzz took notice of the changes I started to make on the website a couple days ago. The changes are not complete, hence the literature discrepancy.



There are several big announcements.


First, as I indicated prominently on my website's home page back in December (or was it November?), our very own Wizard is helping me with the math analysis, as well as providing consulting services to help me tweak the concept. To be frank, I'm kinda surprised that nobody mentioned seeing that announcement. Whatever.

One of the things Mike has drilled into my head, was to KEEP IT SIMPLE! And I think Mike will remark that I have something of a thick skull.

But I finally got it.

As a result, except for Red and Black, the "Roulette Combos" thing has been eliminated. No more Odd/Even, High/Low, Dozens and Columns. The only one that remains is Red and Black, which, obviously, are called "Flush". For those of you that were paying attention, I did originally have just those, as a flush.

There is no added payout for any combination that is also a flush. The reason is simple, unlike cards, the higher the ranking hand, the more likely that it will all be the same color. I.E. Think about a Full House. In Roulette, since those five spins are only two unique numbers, there is a nearly 50% chance that they will be the same color. So they don't deserve extra payouts.

When paying one pair the hit rate is 26.6%. Mike feels that's way too high, and suggest the minimum winner to be a flush, with a hit rate of 6.1%. While I agree that 26.6% is kinda high, I feel 6.1% is kinda low.

Mike feels that there were too many ways to win, and it's too complex. So the Roulette combos are gone. Also potential confusion were the green wilds.

The compromise is that greens are still wild, but only for straights and 5OAK, and that only one of them can be used.

As a result, to answer Buzz' question above, the 2 greens plus 6, 7, 8 used to be a wild straight, now, at best it's a pair - if the greens are the same.

Five greens, in any combination, still qualifies for the full jackpot. The reason is simple: There are only 38 ways to make 5OAK, and only 30 ways to make 5 mixed greens.

Limiting wild greens to one in a 5 spin combination also alleviated a different problem I was having. Previously, with the wild 5OAK and wild 4OAK, some natural 5OAKs and every 5 green, would be preceeded and/or followed by a wild 5OAK, and sometimes wild 4OAK. It created "Clumping".

For what it's worth, we went back and forth a lot on this. At times I was happy about the 2,000 miles between us - it may have kept us from having a fist fight!

"There are none so blind as those will not see."

Always amazes me when people ask for advice, then argue when they receive it. Let alone paying for advice and ignoring same.
But that seems to be a common failing among game inventors. I would say " don't take this personal", except I believe when
anyone says that to you, " TAKE IT PERSONAL".
That being said, I hope Mike's blood pressure is back to normal and you left his some adrenalin. Believe me, he is gonna need it
in the Stratosphere Tower stairwell.

In order to increase the hit rate a bit, what about making a green wild for making 3OAK also? You might check what that would do to the numbers.

On one of my favorite games, Texas Hold Em Bonus, the hit rate on the side bet is about 8% IIRC, and sometimes it seems like you can play it a long time with no return, and then of course sometimes it hits left and right. All in all, I think 8% isn't too bad, so 6% probably isn't that bad either. But overall, the payout structure has to be there... In Texas Hold Em Bonus, it's pretty easy to get a payout of 10to1 or better so that when it does payoff it's pretty decent.

Also, it might not take too much if you want to offer the ultra-rare event of a consecutive straight. That is, 7-8-9-10-11 or such where you can pay out a large "dream sum."

I just don't like the fact that wild cards are not wild. PERIOD. I also hated Wheel Of madness rule that a dealer BJ cancelled your
spin when you had a qualifying BJ. Most people know diddly about using a joker only in straight and flushes. or whatever.
I would think you might attract more roulette players using the side bet as a hedge. Get either zero and improve you chances at poker.

Here's the reasoning behind the limited use of the green wild.

For one thing, Mike stressed to me, "Keep it simple." After repeating that a couple hundred times, I started to understand him.


In prior versions, there was no limit to the number of green wilds per hand, but it was only for straights, four of a kind and five of a kind. A 5OAK that consists of 5 greens, would then, by default, have a wild 5OAK before it and after it. Similar clumping occurred with wild 4OAK. The 1 green rule almost completely eliminated the clumping problem.

38 top prize winners out of 79 million combinations is a tad too infrequent. Add 30 combinations of 5 mixed greens. It's still rather infrequent, but not as bad.

The 4 of a kind plus 1 green (to make a wild 5OAK) hits 360 times in 79 million. That makes for a good number of partial jackpot hits when the progressive is included.

Straights were something of a different problem. Ignore the wilds for a sec. It still makes sense that 0,1,2,3,4 is a straight. But what about 00,1,2,3,4? For the purpose of a straight, is a 00 the same as 0? It seems like 00,0,1,2,3 should be a straight, but not 00,1,2,3,4. But either way you slice it, people are gonna argue. Therefore, make the greens wild, but limit it to one green in a wild straight. This means 0,1,2,3,4 is a wild straight, but so is 00,1,2,3,4 as well as 14,15,0,17,18. However, 00,0,1,2,3 is not - because if it was, wouldn't 22,23,0,00,26 be a wild straight too? The solution, and very minor compromise, was to make the greens wild with the limit of one of them.

Making the wilds work for other combinations adds way too many winners to the mix.

Quote:

Most people know diddly about using a joker only in straight and flushes.

I tend to think most people are aware of the rule. But it's irrelevant since there is no strategy or decisions involved. The system evaluates the prior 5 spins and indicates if there was a winner or not.

I wouldn't play this game, for a few things that I could see pissing me off.

"Partially wild 0's"... It is my understanding that they server as wilds for straights and 5 of a kind, and that is it, and you can only use 1. Thus, getting two 0's would simply mean you are limited to making a straight, a 5 of a kind, or a 4 card poker hand.

The house edge seems ridiculously high. Like worst bet in the house, next to Keno.

I would find it hard to there to be anything about this game that I would like.

DJ,

I think if you go for the high edge you should use one of the paytable with the higher 26% hit frequency. I think I like pay table 3 vs. 4 as any pair pays you back 2 units. That is what is going to be hit most of the time there is a win and players will feel like they are winning along the way of chasing for the big payouts.

Having a sub 7% hit rate and a huge house edge seems like it won't take long for players to say that it is a suckers bet that never pays off.

They won't know the edge and if they are hitting once out of four bets (using pay table 3), they will get a sense that they actually have a chance. JMHO

Normally with a high hit rate it involves an 'even money' proposition occurring more frequently. This gives the impression that wins come up but generally don't include an 'exciting' payout. Swings and roundabouts is the phrase used in the UK.

I would aim for a hit rate around 15% if possible, give or take 5%. I also don't like the partial use of the wild zeros even though the math' may dictate that it fits better. Have you considered zeros being ignored totally ? i.e. 12, 16, 0, 14, 00, 13, 0, 15 is treated as 12, 16, 14, 13, 15 which is a straight? I realise that 5OAK would be very difficult to get - I still like the 3CP hands for that reason as 3OAK is hard but will come up and the hands are settled faster and easier to understand IMO

For me, using 5-card hands with a partial-wild will possibly cause too much confusion and frustration with players.

Just to clarify then - if you get a straight that's out of orders, say 24, 20, 22, 23, 25 - would that count?

Quote: Paradigm

I think if you go for the high edge you should use one of the paytable with the higher 26% hit frequency. I think I like pay table 3 vs. 4 as any pair pays you back 2 units. That is what is going to be hit most of the time there is a win and players will feel like they are winning along the way of chasing for the big payouts.

Having a sub 7% hit rate and a huge house edge seems like it won't take long for players to say that it is a suckers bet that never pays off.

They won't know the edge and if they are hitting once out of four bets (using pay table 3), they will get a sense that they actually have a chance. JMHO

I agree with everything you are saying, but wanted to create options for the casino.

Pay table 3 is my preference as well.

Regarding the edge, I could easily create another set of pay tables with an edge in the 18% range if I wanted to. But that would just clutter the website.

Quote: Triplell

I wouldn't play this game....
The house edge seems ridiculously high.

I remind you this isn't a "game" but a "side bet".

The house edge can be adjusted if desired. I have heard from several sources that progressive jackpots should have a house edge in the 20% to 25% range. FYI: According to the WoO Caribbean Stud section on the progressive jackpot, the average house edge on that is 26.46%.

Quote: Switch

I would aim for a hit rate around 15% if possible, give or take 5%.

Yeah, I'd prefer a hit rate around 15% as well, but there's just no way to get there.

Quote: Switch

Have you considered zeros being ignored totally?

I think that would create more confusion than it's worth.

Quote: Switch

I still like the 3CP hands ... the hands are settled faster and easier to understand IMO

Remember that unlike 3CP, PFR is a side bet with no strategy or decisions being made. Additionally, the prior 5 spins are evaluated by the system, with the display telling the dealer and players what combination was achieved and the payout.

Quote: Switch

For me, using 5-card hands with a partial-wild will possibly cause too much confusion and frustration with players.

Much of the frustration and confusion is alleviated by the examples shown on the math page of my site. The printed rules card will have similar examples. I deliberately selected examples where straights were scrambled, pairs were not consecutive, etc. And I made excessive use of the 0 and 00, to show when it is, and is not, wild.

Quote: Phosphorous

Just to clarify then - if you get a straight that's out of orders, say 24, 20, 22, 23, 25 - would that count?

Yes.

Earlier today, Miplet sent me a PM, informing me that one of my math numbers was wrong.

He said that I had 120 too many straights. Upon examination of my logic, I was counting 00,0,1,2,3 as a natural straight. According to my long-winded explanations above, it is a loser.


As a result of this, I updated the website to show the new probabilities and edges, etc. The house edge has risen about 0.20%.

I.E. The 4 pay tables presented used to have an edge of 23.10% thru 23.25%. As a result of this correction, the edges now range from 23.29% to 23.45%.

It's hardly significant, but in the interest of full disclosure, I thought I'd let you all know.


And thanks to Miplet for pointing out the error.

Quote: Switch
For me, using 5-card hands with a partial-wild will possibly cause too much confusion and frustration with players.

Is it true that a bettor can have 2 , 3, or even 4 wild cards and not have a winner? REALLY !
Sure seems to diminish the value of a wild card.
Especially in light of the fact that with each wild card, it is highly likely the bettor lost his roulette bet.
I think making that losing roulette bet have some added value in poker would be attractive.

Quote: buzzpaff

Is it true that a bettor can have 2 , 3, or even 4 wild cards and not have a winner?

No.

With 2 greens, you might have a pair (i.e. 0,0,x,y,z or 00,00,x,y,z). Hell, if the greens are a pair, and x,y,z is a pair or trips, then you have two pair or a full house!

With 3 greens, you definately have a pair, possibly trips. If the other two are paired, then you have either two pair or a full house.

With 4 greens, you have two pair, trips or quads.


Check my Poker For Roulette math page, and you'll see all the examples of where the greens are wild, when they are worthless, and used even when they are not wild. (Hmmm.... I gotta update the Two Pair line to show a combination that includes a pair of greens...)

With 3 greens, you definately have a pair, possibly trips.

3 wild cards and I definitely have a pair ? Gee , I would think the wild cards alone would be trips. The wild cards seem awful tame to me, Teddy Just being honest. Admire your determination.

Is this right? I could have 3 greens and a non pair, and more often than not, I would not qualify for a payout ??

OOPS My Bad read table 3 and 4 too fast SORRY

A WoV member sent me a PM about my game.
It was prompted by the conversation in the ShuffleMaster Focus Group thread.

Since it was specific to my game, I didn't want to further bog down that thread with my reply.

Also, he sent it as a PM to avoid making a public comment about a serious concern of his that may kill my idea. I appreciate his concern, and his desire to keep it private to protect me. However, I had already thought about the problem he pointed out. And I'd rather discuss everything publicly anyway.


His PM concern, in a nutshell, is that my game will slow down the operations at the Roulette table. As we all know, hands per hour is a key item that the casino pays attention to.


If the dealer had to stop and figure out if the prior 5 spins produced a winning result, and who had active bets, then I would agree with his assessment that the game would slow down, significantly.

That's not the case.

There will be betting stations around the table that will have lights to track the active bets.


After a spin that produces a winning combination, the dealer's control panel will display the type of combination, the number of winners and the amount. The betting station's Winner light will blink to let the dealer know who gets paid.

Assuming you already have that mechanism in production, what will be the installation cost per Roulette table, actual and digital ??

No. It's not in production. Hasn't even been designed yet.

I do expect it to be far easier and cheaper to install in an electronic format Roulette table. I drew that sample to show how it could work on a traditional table.

Gee Teddy, and if asked for an estimate on how much to install the signage, coin receptors, dealer payoff indicator, your answer
would be ??

I have no experience in the design, installation or cost estimation of such items.

Fortunately, my target customers are game distributors. They have a lot of experience in those matters. Therefore, I doubt I'd ever have to field such a question.

I hope you are right. It was just the first question that popped into my mind.
The Wiz did a quick overview of my game. And I do mean quick LOL
I mislead him, I guess, as he thought signage was required and that was a big NO-NO.
Never followed up as I know that evaluating games is how he feeds his family.
Plus I got a 3 1/2 out of Ten.
Be satisfied with a positive number at the Focus group.
See you there, I will be the old guy with the wooden chips LOL