Three Card Chinese Poker

Hi All

I’d like to introduce you to my first casino table game, Three Card Chinese Poker.

It’s based on Chinese Poker or Open Face Chinese Poker as most will know it by. The game that could only be played by 2 or 3 players can be played as a casino table game for 7 players.

I have patent applications submitted and the maths have been verified by NMi

House edge is 3.82% (4.69% incl side bet)

Running 4 years of game simulation results in an average theoretical hold of 25%
(The game simulation accounted for player activity such as leaving when winning/losing and players playing a certain number of hands so the table could have 1 to 7 players at any time.)

The game started a trial in the UK at the end of January and is ongoing.

I don’t have an online playable demo yet but will post when this gets sorted.

Here are the basics of the game:

The game follows the principles of OFCP where you must make three ascending ranked hands that meaning front row weakest hand, middle row as middle hand and back row as strongest hand.

Both dealer and player(s) get dealt 3 starting cards. Players place the Ante bet before getting their cards, this is also a bet on the front row and is the only mandatory bet.

Community cards are dealt along with 2 other rounds of betting (Middle row and Back row) to make a total of 10 community cards. 2 cards in the front/ante row and 4 in both the middle and back rows.

The middle row bet is optional and cannot be greater than the Ante bet.

The back row bet is optional and cannot be greater than the middle row bet (if made) or the Ante bet.

The dealer and player position one card in each row (Front/Ante, Middle and Back) to make the best open hand.

The dealer qualifies with an open hand and does not qualify with a foul hand.

In turn, the player’s cards are positioned and with the hands being open/foul the following happens:

Dealer foul and player open, players wins against their ante bet (middle and back bets pushed)
Dealer foul and player foul, player loses their ante bet (middle and back bets pushed)
Dealer open and player foul, player loses ante, middle and back bets
Dealer open and player open, player wins from respective pay table with 1 pair or better hands.

High card hands are valid for making an open hand but do not win so a player with an open hand consisting of only high card hands would lose their respective bets.

When the dealer is foul and player open the player wins with high card hands, i.e they do not need a 1 pair or better hand to win and only win on the ante bet.

There are three pay tables, one for the ante row, one for the middle row and one for the back row.

If the dealer is foul and player open the player can still win the scoop bonus with a qualifying hand.

The scoop bonus pays when the player has a min 1 pair hand in each row but still abiding by the basic rule that the hands must be in ascending order (front row weakest hand, middle row as middle hand and back row as strongest hand).


A key and unique feature of the game is that the player does not have to beat the dealer hand to win!!


I welcome your thoughts and comments and I will endeavour to reply as soon as possible.

Thanks.

Seems interesting yet moderately complicated, but then again it's all written in text and even simple games could sound complicated via text. I'd love to try a game demo when it's ready.

Congrats on your trails and hope they go well.

Quote: Romes

Seems interesting yet moderately complicated, but then again it's all written in text and even simple games could sound complicated via text. I'd love to try a game demo when it's ready.

Congrats on your trails and hope they go well.

Thanks Romes. It does help if you know poker and play Chinese but I have also watched new players play and pick the game up quickly.

I'll post a link to a demo once it's ready.

I really enjoy Chinese poker and Asia poker, but am having some trouble following your posted rules. What constitutes a fouled hand for the dealer? Does the community board get exposed before hands are set? Does the dealer expose and set their hand before the players set theirs?

Thanks, and I also wish you well in your UK trial. I hope this game makes it, as it sounds like an interesting and fun game.

Hi beachbumbabs, thanks for your comment.

Quote: beachbumbabs

What constitutes a fouled hand for the dealer?

The dealer follows the same rules as the player and the game in general, therefore they must make three ascending ranked hands as per OFCP.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Does the community board get exposed before hands are set?

Yes it does. Once the player and dealer cards are dealt (Face down) the community cards are dealt face up to the table in a specific order. 5 cards are dealt and the player can make their optional middle row bet. A further 3 cards are dealt after which they can make their back row bet and finally the last 2 community cards are dealt.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Does the dealer expose and set their hand before the players set theirs?

The dealer set out their three cards, one card to each row to make an open hand, if they cannot make an open hand then they have a foul hand.
The dealer then takes each players cards in turn and sets them out alongside the community cards to make the player an open hand.


In essence both dealer and player utilise the 10 community cards to make their corresponding hands.

I hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions, thanks.

What is your target audience? Is your goal to attract pai gow and three card poker players? These players do not like change, not even if it's got the better.

Quote: UKMark

Hi beachbumbabs, thanks for your comment.


The dealer follows the same rules as the player and the game in general, therefore they must make three ascending ranked hands as per OFCP.



Yes it does. Once the player and dealer cards are dealt (Face down) the community cards are dealt face up to the table in a specific order. 5 cards are dealt and the player can make their optional middle row bet. A further 3 cards are dealt after which they can make their back row bet and finally the last 2 community cards are dealt.



The dealer set out their three cards, one card to each row to make an open hand, if they cannot make an open hand then they have a foul hand.
The dealer then takes each players cards in turn and sets them out alongside the community cards to make the player an open hand.


In essence both dealer and player utilise the 10 community cards to make their corresponding hands.

I hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions, thanks.

Sorry, Mark, but I think you said the same things you said before, and I'm still not following.

What is an open hand vs. A fouled hand?

Hands are set 5-5-3, right? Can community cards be rearranged at all to form a better hand for each individual, or do they come into particular spots and you must play them as they come?

I guess a demo is necessary for me to get the gist of this, as I'm missing a good grounding in Chinese Poker in order to follow your variation. Only played it a couple of times a decade ago.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Sorry, Mark, but I think you said the same things you said before, and I'm still not following.

What is an open hand vs. A fouled hand? ...

If I'm reading correctly, it sounds like an open hand is simply one where each hand is higher than the lower tier hands. Since your hands don't have to beat dealer hands to win, you don't need any sort of "House Way", it's just the question as to whether the dealer can make 3 hands of ascending value

Quote: UncleBoom

What is your target audience? Is your goal to attract pai gow and three card poker players? These players do not like change, not even if it's got the better.

Hi Uncleboom and thanks for the question. I feel the game, as it is a new game and not just a new side bet or bolt on to an existing game could have a wide reach. That said the immediate audience will be a mix of players who like poker and OFCP and possibly the TCP and BJ players. I agree that people don't like change but there is a vast number of OFCP players who, from a table market perspective are an untapped potential.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Sorry, Mark, but I think you said the same things you said before, and I'm still not following.

What is an open hand vs. A fouled hand?

Hands are set 5-5-3, right? Can community cards be rearranged at all to form a better hand for each individual, or do they come into particular spots and you must play them as they come?

I guess a demo is necessary for me to get the gist of this, as I'm missing a good grounding in Chinese Poker in order to follow your variation. Only played it a couple of times a decade ago.

It took a while for me to get the text into something I thought made sense, but then when you know something it always makes sense. I hope to have a demo up and running soon, in the mean time.......

Here's a good starting point Chinese Poker Rules that will give you the basics of open and foul hands.

The cards do get set as a 3, 5, 5 (front, middle, back) but are made up of 10 community cards that give a 2, 4, 4 arrangement with the player/dealer placing one card in each row to make a 3, 5, 5 hand. The community cards are dealt in a specific order and cannot be rearranged so are played as they are dealt. That does mean you can get a Ace dealt on the front row which is never good. This often means the dealer will foul but as a player if you can make an open hand you get 2-1 on your ante bet.

Quote: socks

If I'm reading correctly, it sounds like an open hand is simply one where each hand is higher than the lower tier hands. Since your hands don't have to beat dealer hands to win, you don't need any sort of "House Way", it's just the question as to whether the dealer can make 3 hands of ascending value

Hi socks, you are correct. There is no specific house way but I did suggest that if the 2, 4, 4 community card board is an open board (eg 8h, 2c followed by 3h, 3d, 7s, Jc followed by 8s, 8d, Qc, Ah, giving 8 high, 1 pr 3's, 1 pr 8's) then the house can position the dealer cards lowest, middle, highest as long as this does not create a foul hand.

As you correctly said, the player cards do not play against the dealer cards so the dealer has no need to make the best possible hand with their cards, just an open hand.

Quote: UKMark

...a trial in the UK...player wins from respective pay table with 1 pair or better hands...d=foul p=open win the scoop bonus with a qualifying hand...

Thanks for overview of this game. Would you be able to let me know (PM if easier) where the trials are taking place. Also have you got details of the pay tables.

I've dealt a few hands and can see that occasionally there's sometimes little chance to win (e.g. the Lo hand has Ax). It seems unlike (say 3CP) as in this game you lose if the dealer doesn't qualify, whereas in most games only the Ante is paid; but I guess this is part of the game.

If I've understood you are playing against a Pay Table with some chance that you might not be paid out on the 5-card hands if the dealer doesn't qualify. Is the following correct?

• If Player cannot set a hand ("foul") then they will lose regardless of the dealer's hand (and obviously shouldn't make additional bets).
  
• If Player can set a valid hand then they should make an additional bet on Middle or High hands if they could qualify for a payout (as you can't lose.)
  
• If the Dealer cannot make a valid hand then only the Ante bet is paid (and is paid for hands less than a pair).
  
• If the Dealer can make a hand, then all three bets are paid according to the pay-table (only pays on a pair or more, I assume they stand/lose??? otherwise).
  
• If the Player can play validly and still make a pair in the Low Hand ("scoop") then a bonus payout is paid regardless.
  

btw If my understanding is correct you make an additional bet on the Middle/High hands when there is a possible payout and, while they might not be paid out, they cannot lose. Would it be easier just to payout the Middle and High hands if the dealer qualifies and the 5-card hands qualify for a payout rather than ask for additional bets to be made.

Hi charliepatrick, thanks for the comments, appreciated.

Quote: charliepatrick

Thanks for overview of this game. Would you be able to let me know (PM if easier) where the trials are taking place. Also have you got details of the pay tables.

Are you based in the UK? f you are I'll look to figure out how to PM (new to this forum) and drop you some further details.

Quote: charliepatrick

I've dealt a few hands and can see that occasionally there's sometimes little chance to win (e.g. the Lo hand has Ax). It seems unlike (say 3CP) as in this game you lose if the dealer doesn't qualify, whereas in most games only the Ante is paid; but I guess this is part of the game.

If the player cannot beat the low hand (Front/Ante row) and fouls, along with the dealer fouling the middle and back bets are pushed with the player losing the ante bet. This may seem harsh as with TCP the player wins 1-1 when the dealer does not qualify, however when the dealer fouls and the player opens they will win either 2-1 or 5-1 against their ante bet. 2-1 is the std payout with the additional scoop bonus of 3-1 if the player has 1pr min in each row with an open hand.

Quote: charliepatrick

If I've understood you are playing against a Pay Table with some chance that you might not be paid out on the 5-card hands if the dealer doesn't qualify. Is the following correct?

• If Player cannot set a hand ("foul") then they will lose regardless of the dealer's hand (and obviously shouldn't make additional bets).
  
• If Player can set a valid hand then they should make an additional bet on Middle or High hands if they could qualify for a payout (as you can't lose.)
  
• If the Dealer cannot make a valid hand then only the Ante bet is paid (and is paid for hands less than a pair).
  
• If the Dealer can make a hand, then all three bets are paid according to the pay-table (only pays on a pair or more, I assume they stand/lose??? otherwise).
  
• If the Player can play validly and still make a pair in the Low Hand ("scoop") then a bonus payout is paid regardless.
  

Point 1 - Yes, player loses when they foul unless dealer has fouled in which case the middle and back bets are pushed.
Point 2 - The player makes their bets before all cards are dealt so you have to work with partial information and use your skills in probability and odds to work out the outs you have to make a winning hand. The back row is the last bet where if you have a pr or better you can bet but the last cards out can change the board and you may still lose.
Point 3 - if the dealer fouls middle and back bets are pushed with the player winning if they make an open hand, high card hands are fine in this instance.
Point 4 - You need 1 pr or better to win otherwise you lose and yes you are paid from the pay tables.
Point 5 - Yes, you get the scoop bonus regardless of the dealer qualifying, therefore in this situation you get 5-1 when dealer foul or 5-1(Ante) plus min 1-1(Middle & Back) when dealer open

Quote: charliepatrick

btw If my understanding is correct you make an additional bet on the Middle/High hands when there is a possible payout and, while they might not be paid out, they cannot lose. Would it be easier just to payout the Middle and High hands if the dealer qualifies and the 5-card hands qualify for a payout rather than ask for additional bets to be made.

You have to make you bet decisions during the game in progress so depending on how your cards fit to the board will depend on what you bet/risk on middle and back bets.


I hope to have a game demo available soon which will make this a lot easier to understand, it sounds much more complicated when you have to type it all out but it's not.

Quote: UKMark

...


I hope to have a game demo available soon which will make this a lot easier to understand, it sounds much more complicated when you have to type it all out but it's not.

UKMark is not able to post his link to his game demo due to new member status, so I have agreed to post it for him. Enjoy!

http://www.igl-gamedemo.co.uk/tccp-demo/tccp.html

Ok, every time I think I understand how this game works, I go off the rails.



In this hand, I have the better ante hand, as the J us higher than dealer's 7. In the middle hand, I have 1 pair, the dealer has 2 pair, so I lose. In the back hand, I have a higher pair, dealer has 3oak, so i lose again. Both hands are internally better from top to bottom, so they are both open, but the results show the exact opposite wins and losses. What's going on here?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Ok, every time I think I understand how this game works, I go off the rails.



In this hand, I have the better ante hand, as the J us higher than dealer's 7. In the middle hand, I have 1 pair, the dealer has 2 pair, so I lose. In the back hand, I have a higher pair, dealer has 3oak, so i lose again. Both hands are internally better from top to bottom, so they are both open, but the results show the exact opposite wins and losses. What's going on here?

The Dealer hand is just a qualifier. If both hands open, you win hands that are a pair or better. They are not compared to the Dealer hand.

Thanks Miplet you're spot on with your explanation.
I realise that players are more accustomed to playing hands against the dealer and having to beat the dealer hand to win and with this game they don't which I believe is a fairly unique feature as not many games play this way, but can lead to some confusion.