Feedback on craps side bet
Poll
 | 7 votes (36.84%) | ||
| | 12 votes (63.15%) |
19 members have voted
September 8th, 2010 at 12:48:38 PM
permalink
Reposted from the other forum (that thread is dead now...)
"Hard Pass"
The Hard Pass bet is a craps side bet made on the shooter's come-out roll. The bet wins if the shooter:
(a) comes out on a hardway point number (hard 4, 6, 8, or 10) and
(b) the shooter makes the point with the hardway number.
If the shooter doesn't come out on one of the four hard point numbers, the bet loses. If the shooter establishes a point with a hardway but either 7s out or makes the point with an easy number, the bet loses.
The chances to win this bet are exactly 1 in 89.1.
When it wins, it pays 80-to-1 for a 9.09% house edge (same as the hard 6/8).
Alternately, it can pay 85-to-1 for a 3.48% house edge.
The dealer procedure is easy - the bet is booked by the stick in a dedicated area of the prop box. The bets go up before the come-out roll, so when the stick is hawking Yo or Horn bets, they'll hawk this one too. If the shooter doesn't roll one of the four hard points, the bet comes down immediately. That means if the bet is still there after the come-out, the puck indicates which hard point needs to be hit to win.
Before giving any additional details or adding my commentary, what do you think? Would you play it?
"Hard Pass"
The Hard Pass bet is a craps side bet made on the shooter's come-out roll. The bet wins if the shooter:
(a) comes out on a hardway point number (hard 4, 6, 8, or 10) and
(b) the shooter makes the point with the hardway number.
If the shooter doesn't come out on one of the four hard point numbers, the bet loses. If the shooter establishes a point with a hardway but either 7s out or makes the point with an easy number, the bet loses.
The chances to win this bet are exactly 1 in 89.1.
When it wins, it pays 80-to-1 for a 9.09% house edge (same as the hard 6/8).
Alternately, it can pay 85-to-1 for a 3.48% house edge.
The dealer procedure is easy - the bet is booked by the stick in a dedicated area of the prop box. The bets go up before the come-out roll, so when the stick is hawking Yo or Horn bets, they'll hawk this one too. If the shooter doesn't roll one of the four hard points, the bet comes down immediately. That means if the bet is still there after the come-out, the puck indicates which hard point needs to be hit to win.
Before giving any additional details or adding my commentary, what do you think? Would you play it?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 8th, 2010 at 12:55:09 PM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearAre you saying that it plays if the shooter's come out roll is ANY hard point? And that it wins if that point is hit hardway?
Yes, that's exactly it. The opening roll establishes the hard point (if one is rolled), and the shooter has to make that hard point in order to win.
Quote:Care to show your math? I've come up with a 1 in 63 chance of winning:
1 / ( ( 4 / 36 ) * ( 1 / 7 ) ) = 63
4/36 is correct for the chances of establishing a hard point, but the next term isn't right.
if you rolled a 6 or 8, the chance of rolling the hardway before the easy way or the 7 is 1/11. If the hard point is 4 or 10, it's 1/9. So:
1/18 * 1/11 + 1/18 * 1/9 =
1/18 * 9/99 + 1/18 * 11/99 =
1/18 * 20/99 =
1/9 * 10/99 = 10/891 = 1/89.1
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 8th, 2010 at 1:54:42 PM
permalink
Oh. Duh.
But it looks like you're adding the chance of achieving the hard 6/8 to the chance of achieving the hard 4/10....
I gotta look at the algebra for a while....
But it looks like you're adding the chance of achieving the hard 6/8 to the chance of achieving the hard 4/10....
I gotta look at the algebra for a while....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 8th, 2010 at 1:59:39 PM
permalink
You could break it down further, 1/36 for each, but since the chances of making the point are the same I just combined them into 2/36 (or 1/18).
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 8th, 2010 at 2:38:07 PM
permalink
Not bad, but I don't think it would get much play. The purpose is too similar to the existing hard way bets. In my opinion, a side bet in craps should have the possibility of paying something really big, like the Fire Bet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 8th, 2010 at 2:47:37 PM
permalink
To me, it sounds no different than say..
Working a Hard 6 on the come out, comes out on a Hard 6, and parlaying it, and it hitting again when he makes the point.
$1 turns into $10 total, which turns into $100 total.
Working a Hard 6 on the come out, comes out on a Hard 6, and parlaying it, and it hitting again when he makes the point.
$1 turns into $10 total, which turns into $100 total.
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
September 8th, 2010 at 2:52:09 PM
permalink
ME,
No! This WAY is different than trying to work and track down a cumbersome combination of hardways bets..this is really elegant! Nobody works this all out on a live game, to do this during a busy crap game...but this one bet does it all. You can also set up bets to simulate the FIRE bet (by parlaying pass line and odds bets in a peticular way), but that bets does it automatically for you, hence its great value and worth. Same here.
That's a GREAT f*cking side bet idea for craps. BRILLIANT ! M.E. ! I didn't know that sharp game designers were mixed in with pedestrian gamblers here at this site...- FIRE BET MY ASS! - and that bet took off making some serious money. [The bust-up bet discussion must have gotten your juices flowing...] but you're making it too hard for the shooter to nail BOTH a point hardways and to RE-NAIL the SAME point hardways. What are you going to pay on a win? 500:1?
[Disclaimer - because it is a great basic idea: I assume you have a provisional patent on this idea, because you have now publicly disclosed it here. I do assume that you do - and will recommend to you some gaming distribution ideas for it. contact me throught the sites messaging..]
I would make the bet as follows:
1. Pays on the hardway come-out point, with a pushing "no action" on a come-out natural such as 7, an 11, or a crap number - so that it is automatically still up, like a World bet when a 7 is thrown, a great crap-playing convenience! It can pay 8:1 as a one-roll bet, - but crap players would have to re-load the bet on anything but a hard point establishing, making it annoying for your future customers. So...best design...ONLY A COME-OUT POINT NUMBER THAT GETS ESTABLISHED (4,5,6,8,9,or 10) DECIDES a WIN OR LOSE - with a hardways 4,6,8,10 winning 3 for 1 and still up (or really 2:1 with one unit still an alive bet for hitting the point hardways) and an easy point establishment a bet loss. Okay!
2. Because it pays "3 for 1" and still up on establishing a hardways point, the players are still up to hit the point hardways automatically if they make it - KEEPING THEM IN THE GAME ON YOUR NEW BET - where it would pay 5:1 on the even point made hardways (4,6,8, or 10), or losing on a seven out or the point hitting easy.
Shit, MathExtremist, that's a really goooood new fucking BET! I hope to Christ you have a provisional patent on it, now that you've puclicly disclosed it, because many gaming execs troll this site, expecially because it's Mike Shackleford's site.
No! This WAY is different than trying to work and track down a cumbersome combination of hardways bets..this is really elegant! Nobody works this all out on a live game, to do this during a busy crap game...but this one bet does it all. You can also set up bets to simulate the FIRE bet (by parlaying pass line and odds bets in a peticular way), but that bets does it automatically for you, hence its great value and worth. Same here.
That's a GREAT f*cking side bet idea for craps. BRILLIANT ! M.E. ! I didn't know that sharp game designers were mixed in with pedestrian gamblers here at this site...- FIRE BET MY ASS! - and that bet took off making some serious money. [The bust-up bet discussion must have gotten your juices flowing...] but you're making it too hard for the shooter to nail BOTH a point hardways and to RE-NAIL the SAME point hardways. What are you going to pay on a win? 500:1?
[Disclaimer - because it is a great basic idea: I assume you have a provisional patent on this idea, because you have now publicly disclosed it here. I do assume that you do - and will recommend to you some gaming distribution ideas for it. contact me throught the sites messaging..]
I would make the bet as follows:
1. Pays on the hardway come-out point, with a pushing "no action" on a come-out natural such as 7, an 11, or a crap number - so that it is automatically still up, like a World bet when a 7 is thrown, a great crap-playing convenience! It can pay 8:1 as a one-roll bet, - but crap players would have to re-load the bet on anything but a hard point establishing, making it annoying for your future customers. So...best design...ONLY A COME-OUT POINT NUMBER THAT GETS ESTABLISHED (4,5,6,8,9,or 10) DECIDES a WIN OR LOSE - with a hardways 4,6,8,10 winning 3 for 1 and still up (or really 2:1 with one unit still an alive bet for hitting the point hardways) and an easy point establishment a bet loss. Okay!
2. Because it pays "3 for 1" and still up on establishing a hardways point, the players are still up to hit the point hardways automatically if they make it - KEEPING THEM IN THE GAME ON YOUR NEW BET - where it would pay 5:1 on the even point made hardways (4,6,8, or 10), or losing on a seven out or the point hitting easy.
Shit, MathExtremist, that's a really goooood new fucking BET! I hope to Christ you have a provisional patent on it, now that you've puclicly disclosed it, because many gaming execs troll this site, expecially because it's Mike Shackleford's site.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 8th, 2010 at 2:53:13 PM
permalink
I'm gonna ignore the math for a moment, and just assume you're right.
The Wiz make a valid point: There's nothing unique here.
The first part of the bet is that the next roll is a hard point, or loses. This is equal to hopping the 4 hard numbers for 25% of the bet. The second part is like taking the proceeds of the hop and parlaying it on the hard number.
While it's an interesting idea, there's nothing unique about it. Any player who wishes to achieve similar results (or maybe better results) can simply hop and parlay.
Hmmm.... Now THERE'S some math I can wrap my head around - except I have to leave now for my in-laws for dinner....
The Wiz make a valid point: There's nothing unique here.
The first part of the bet is that the next roll is a hard point, or loses. This is equal to hopping the 4 hard numbers for 25% of the bet. The second part is like taking the proceeds of the hop and parlaying it on the hard number.
While it's an interesting idea, there's nothing unique about it. Any player who wishes to achieve similar results (or maybe better results) can simply hop and parlay.
Hmmm.... Now THERE'S some math I can wrap my head around - except I have to leave now for my in-laws for dinner....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 8th, 2010 at 3:07:35 PM
permalink
Paigowdan and I obviously disagree about the merits of the bet, but I do agree that if you should at least get a provisional patent on it if you wish to pursue selling it. I'm no lawyer, but if you didn't already do so, you may wish to somehow prove you posted the idea here and on what date. That could be used to invalidate a patent, should someone else see it here and try to steal it. If you're serious about selling it, I would recommend a full blown patent, but that debate has already been done. You might also consider just selling the idea to Paigowdown, since he likes it so much, and he is in the new casino games business.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 8th, 2010 at 3:25:36 PM
permalink
Hold on...
I disagree with Mike...There is something really unique and valuable here going on...and that is easy and convenient. Crap players could emulate the hardways bet by making hardways hop bets all the time on EVERY ROLL until THAT bet hits but they don't. And it would KILL crap game operations if it were done that way, because that does NOT "elegantize" the game the way a single hard-8 bet does. Same here!
They can also emulate the FIRE bet through complex ways that they have not thought of doing also - and so don't do. Math-E had, though.
So...This is really a completely novel crap game bet - in that it handles an entire betting strategy with in a single and easy bet.
The bet DOES have great worth, and is patentable, and is marketable, and is commercially viable, and makes the GAME BETTER AND EASIER.
Keep in mind that the HORN bet also is a collection of the 2,3,11, and 12, and the World bet is a horn bet plus a 7 bet. Crap players bet them and use them because it helps organize their favorite game for them - as does the fire bet.
It gives the crap players brand-new and easy options, it speeds up the game, and makes players bet more with the chance to win more it it works out for them - which is what a good side bet is supposed to do.
There's a lot that's both unique and elegant going on here, and if it sells, it'll prove some experts wrong. Because this is what players USE, and this is what casinos USE, so it may be what SELLS and makes a name for itself in gaming.
Math Extremeist - very sharp - ignore the nay sayers.
I was told two things about Comission-free EZ Pai Gow Poker:
1. That it is nothing unique, and won't see casino action, and they were WRONG!
2. If Anyone could find a clean way to get rid of the commission on both Pai Gow and Baccarat - they'll re-define those games and make some serious money. THEY were right.
A lot of game designers come to me with their "inventions" as a successful game inventor, and MOST of the time I say, "Sorry, man, I think your game idea really sucks ass, nice guy that you are, better for you to get a day time job and let your wife pay the bills, let's get real over here." When they try to pitch it to Shufflemaster, Galaxy, DEQ, Gaming Network, they get told exactly the same thing. If I say otherwise, it's because there's real merit and potential that should at least be followed up on.
So sometimes, I SEE a real sharp game idea that I MYSELF wished that I had come up with, and both Bust-up BJ and your "point-number hardways parlay" fall into that category - meaning that it "should" make it, if you did your patent work right, did your correct layout artwork, did your math work with Mike or someone else, and contacted enough industry guys to get you a showing. I've seen a LOT of stuff that wasn't worth a thing. Your side bet does for the hardways bettor what the FIRE bet does for the pass line bettor who wants an easy and convienient bet.
If you do the math, the patent, and the marketing right, it will sell. IMHO.
And Mike is right about this: if the game DOES HAVE PROMISE, THEN GET A FULL UTILITY ON IT. The provisional allows you to market the game to see if it has...and if it does, you do the patent conversion.
I disagree with Mike...There is something really unique and valuable here going on...and that is easy and convenient. Crap players could emulate the hardways bet by making hardways hop bets all the time on EVERY ROLL until THAT bet hits but they don't. And it would KILL crap game operations if it were done that way, because that does NOT "elegantize" the game the way a single hard-8 bet does. Same here!
They can also emulate the FIRE bet through complex ways that they have not thought of doing also - and so don't do. Math-E had, though.
So...This is really a completely novel crap game bet - in that it handles an entire betting strategy with in a single and easy bet.
The bet DOES have great worth, and is patentable, and is marketable, and is commercially viable, and makes the GAME BETTER AND EASIER.
Keep in mind that the HORN bet also is a collection of the 2,3,11, and 12, and the World bet is a horn bet plus a 7 bet. Crap players bet them and use them because it helps organize their favorite game for them - as does the fire bet.
It gives the crap players brand-new and easy options, it speeds up the game, and makes players bet more with the chance to win more it it works out for them - which is what a good side bet is supposed to do.
There's a lot that's both unique and elegant going on here, and if it sells, it'll prove some experts wrong. Because this is what players USE, and this is what casinos USE, so it may be what SELLS and makes a name for itself in gaming.
Math Extremeist - very sharp - ignore the nay sayers.
I was told two things about Comission-free EZ Pai Gow Poker:
1. That it is nothing unique, and won't see casino action, and they were WRONG!
2. If Anyone could find a clean way to get rid of the commission on both Pai Gow and Baccarat - they'll re-define those games and make some serious money. THEY were right.
A lot of game designers come to me with their "inventions" as a successful game inventor, and MOST of the time I say, "Sorry, man, I think your game idea really sucks ass, nice guy that you are, better for you to get a day time job and let your wife pay the bills, let's get real over here." When they try to pitch it to Shufflemaster, Galaxy, DEQ, Gaming Network, they get told exactly the same thing. If I say otherwise, it's because there's real merit and potential that should at least be followed up on.
So sometimes, I SEE a real sharp game idea that I MYSELF wished that I had come up with, and both Bust-up BJ and your "point-number hardways parlay" fall into that category - meaning that it "should" make it, if you did your patent work right, did your correct layout artwork, did your math work with Mike or someone else, and contacted enough industry guys to get you a showing. I've seen a LOT of stuff that wasn't worth a thing. Your side bet does for the hardways bettor what the FIRE bet does for the pass line bettor who wants an easy and convienient bet.
If you do the math, the patent, and the marketing right, it will sell. IMHO.
And Mike is right about this: if the game DOES HAVE PROMISE, THEN GET A FULL UTILITY ON IT. The provisional allows you to market the game to see if it has...and if it does, you do the patent conversion.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 8th, 2010 at 3:35:24 PM
permalink
Quote: Paigowdanbut you're making it too hard for the shooter to nail BOTH a point hardways and to RE-NAIL the SAME point hardways. What are you going to pay on a win? 500:1?
No, it's not nearly that difficult. At odds of 1/89.1 of winning, you can pay somewhere between 80-to-1 and 85-to-1 and have a workable house edge.
My design goal was to have a cheer-inducing high-payout bet, but not too high so the odds couldn't justify a reasonable frequency. The important part, I think, is that you come out on a hard point every 9 comeouts. That's going to build a lot of excitement (I hope), and it will happen often - multiple times per hour. When the bet actually does win, it'll be after some cheering has already built up, hopefully causing a great roar of excitement. If that happens, the whole craps-playing experience should become more fun, and that's my goal.
As for intellectual property, Hard Pass is already patented, trademark-pending, and approved for play in both Nevada and Mississippi casinos. I've been too busy until recently to try selling it, so I wanted to get feedback from an interested group of people first. Not living in Las Vegas anymore makes it difficult.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 8th, 2010 at 3:46:42 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardPaigowdan and I obviously disagree about the merits of the bet, but I do agree that if you should at least get a provisional patent on it if you wish to pursue selling it. I'm no lawyer, but if you didn't already do so, you may wish to somehow prove you posted the idea here and on what date. That could be used to invalidate a patent, should someone else see it here and try to steal it. If you're serious about selling it, I would recommend a full blown patent, but that debate has already been done. You might also consider just selling the idea to Paigowdown, since he likes it so much, and he is in the new casino games business.
"Hard Pass" is actually a very solid side-bet game idea for craps.
I would buy it if I had the cash, and offer him $10,000, thinking it could make at least $600K plus, or pitch it on his behalf (without a cut, because I LIKE it). Any new game is a 500:1 long shot, and a brilliant and sexy new game with BOTH a patent and a math report is a 30:1 long shot, so I'd offer $10K, for a $600K return, as a 60:1 pay back, if investing, because ANYTHING CAN GO WRONG. Like I said, it's a sharp hardways parlay bet, and is a good crap game side bet idea, much like a pass line parlay is - which is what the Fire bet is, - and hugely successful. If it hits, it's a LOT of gracious-living retirement income. If it doesn't, only the lawyers and mathematicians made their money up front, and we and our investors are broke, nothing to show for the idea.
But I would need to be SURE of:
1. The solidity of this provisional (patent pending) or Utility [full] patent for "IP Ownership" solidity,
2. See the crap table "layout artwork" that he's done to cleanly impliment the bet; it has to be easy to implemented, craps is hard enough to deal from a floor supervision point of view;
3. See the math reports, and perhaps review them with Charles Mousseau,
4. find out if M.E. had made arrangements or promises to other distributors,
5. etc,...
If M.E. has a Solid patent (to be reviewed by someone Like Richard Newman at Howard and Howard), and has a solid math report that can pass gaming, and has a clean layout design to easy implement the bet, then it wouldn't be too hard or too unreasonable to pitch the game at many casinos, - some of whom would say yes.
But Without ALL of the above being in place, it's a no-go.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 8th, 2010 at 4:53:15 PM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremist
As for intellectual property, Hard Pass is already patented, trademark-pending, and approved for play in both Nevada and Mississippi casinos. I've been too busy until recently to try selling it, so I wanted to get feedback from an interested group of people first. Not living in Las Vegas anymore makes it difficult.
M.E. - - did you already show this product to Gaming Network??
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 8th, 2010 at 7:48:46 PM
permalink
I think the bet has a chance of success as it's simple and offers attractive odds. Another factor to consider is the 'anticipation factor' which, in this bet, runs at 11% i.e. the probability of the bet passing the initial stage (4,6,8,10) to give players the feeling of being close to the payout. This may be too low although there are ways around it.
The other point, made by Mike, is whether it's too similar to the regular 'Hard Ways' bet. I'm not an avid craps player so I'm not good at judging that but to an occasional player, like me, it feels like taking the Hard Ways and adding an extra dimension with attractive payouts as a reward. If lots of throwers are throwing doubles then it could entice players to make the wager.
Without trying to 'sit on the fence' it's one of those bets that would probably have to be installed on the casino floor before the player acceptance % could be gauged.
One question, if the player wins then does the original bet stay put or does it get resolved and new betting required ?
Geoff
The other point, made by Mike, is whether it's too similar to the regular 'Hard Ways' bet. I'm not an avid craps player so I'm not good at judging that but to an occasional player, like me, it feels like taking the Hard Ways and adding an extra dimension with attractive payouts as a reward. If lots of throwers are throwing doubles then it could entice players to make the wager.
Without trying to 'sit on the fence' it's one of those bets that would probably have to be installed on the casino floor before the player acceptance % could be gauged.
One question, if the player wins then does the original bet stay put or does it get resolved and new betting required ?
Geoff
September 8th, 2010 at 8:06:23 PM
permalink
I wouldn't play it. It's the same as a hard-way parlay essentially.
For the hard six and 8, $1 pays $99 if it hits twice in a row ($1 -> $10 -> $100 and down).
For the hard four and 10, $1 pays $63 if it hits twice in a row ($1 -> $8 -> $64 and down).
Mind you, there is some uniqueness to the bet. If you let the bet push on a come out craps, yo, or 11.
First, there is a 4/24 chance that the come out will be a hardways.
1/4 is a hard 4 and hard 10
1/4 is a hard 6 and 8.
Odds of making the hard 4 and 10 are 1:9
Odds of making the hard 6 and 8 are 1:11
So you have a 1/6 x (1/4 x 1/9 x 2 + 1/4 x 1/11 x 2) = 1/6 x (2/36 + 2/44) = 1/108 + 1/132 = 1 / 59.4.
So you pay it at 50 to 1.
HA = (51 - 59.4) / 59.4 = 14.14 percent, a true sucker bet, and I think pulling a 50:1 dollar win doesn't make it seem too much of a long shot. On top of that, most non-math folk at the table couldn't figure out the odds.
If I were to market it, I would promo it at 90 for 1 and 60 for 1 to get people hooked, and then make the final payout 80 and 50 to 1 respectively. And leaving it off for the initial comeout roll appears to provide value.
You know what? For a buck, enough people would play it! And because it's active every comeout roll, it could be alot of fun. And given that the bet hits enough times, like once an hour, it would get some action.
For the hard six and 8, $1 pays $99 if it hits twice in a row ($1 -> $10 -> $100 and down).
For the hard four and 10, $1 pays $63 if it hits twice in a row ($1 -> $8 -> $64 and down).
Mind you, there is some uniqueness to the bet. If you let the bet push on a come out craps, yo, or 11.
First, there is a 4/24 chance that the come out will be a hardways.
1/4 is a hard 4 and hard 10
1/4 is a hard 6 and 8.
Odds of making the hard 4 and 10 are 1:9
Odds of making the hard 6 and 8 are 1:11
So you have a 1/6 x (1/4 x 1/9 x 2 + 1/4 x 1/11 x 2) = 1/6 x (2/36 + 2/44) = 1/108 + 1/132 = 1 / 59.4.
So you pay it at 50 to 1.
HA = (51 - 59.4) / 59.4 = 14.14 percent, a true sucker bet, and I think pulling a 50:1 dollar win doesn't make it seem too much of a long shot. On top of that, most non-math folk at the table couldn't figure out the odds.
If I were to market it, I would promo it at 90 for 1 and 60 for 1 to get people hooked, and then make the final payout 80 and 50 to 1 respectively. And leaving it off for the initial comeout roll appears to provide value.
You know what? For a buck, enough people would play it! And because it's active every comeout roll, it could be alot of fun. And given that the bet hits enough times, like once an hour, it would get some action.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
September 8th, 2010 at 8:15:50 PM
permalink
not really...from what I understand from MathExtremist,
The hard pass bet's first stage is that it gets set to the point, which could be one of four numbers: 2,4,6,8.
But you're not betting all of the hardways, you're making a one-unit bet that goes up to a hard number point.
Then if it hits again, making the point hardways, it pays out.
If that's the case, it's a bit like a come bet - let the dice decide...
The hard pass bet's first stage is that it gets set to the point, which could be one of four numbers: 2,4,6,8.
But you're not betting all of the hardways, you're making a one-unit bet that goes up to a hard number point.
Then if it hits again, making the point hardways, it pays out.
If that's the case, it's a bit like a come bet - let the dice decide...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 8th, 2010 at 8:25:56 PM
permalink
Quote: Paigowdannot really...from what I understand from MathExtremist,
The hard pass bet's first stage is that it gets set to the point, which could be one of four numbers: 2,4,6,8.
But you're not betting all of the hardways, you're making a one-unit bet that goes up to a hard number point.
Then if it hits again, making the point hardways, it pays out.
If that's the case, it's a bit like a come bet - let the dice decide...
I think it also survives a 7 on the come-out, which a hard 4/6/8/10 wouldn't do, if you turned it on.
September 8th, 2010 at 8:33:06 PM
permalink
Quote: SwitchIf lots of throwers are throwing doubles then it could entice players to make the wager.
Without trying to 'sit on the fence' it's one of those bets that would probably have to be installed on the casino floor before the player acceptance % could be gauged.
One question, if the player wins then does the original bet stay put or does it get resolved and new betting required ?
Geoff
Yes, that's what I'm hoping for. My goal is to get it onto the floor somewhere before the end of the year, preferably before G2E. I'd like to have those player acceptance numbers by early next year if possible.
As to the procedure, yes, I expect the default to be pay 80 (or 85) and the bet stays up just like the hardways or any other winning prop bet. You could take it down, but it'd stay up by default. The payout is also just like the hardways -- at the end, after everything else is done.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 8th, 2010 at 9:43:45 PM
permalink
Quote: boymimboMind you, there is some uniqueness to the bet. If you let the bet push on a come out craps, yo, or 11.
So you have a 1/6 x (1/4 x 1/9 x 2 + 1/4 x 1/11 x 2) = 1/6 x (2/36 + 2/44) = 1/108 + 1/132 = 1 / 59.4.
So you pay it at 50 to 1.
HA = (51 - 59.4) / 59.4 = 14.14 percent, a true sucker bet, and I think pulling a 50:1 dollar win doesn't make it seem too much of a long shot. On top of that, most non-math folk at the table couldn't figure out the odds.
You know what? For a buck, enough people would play it! And because it's active every comeout roll, it could be alot of fun. And given that the bet hits enough times, like once an hour, it would get some action.
Thanks for the feedback. I like the idea of using "no-action" on a come-out natural win/loss, but it does necessarily lower the payout. I'd suggest 55-to-1 instead of 50 for an edge of 5.7%, just because I'd hate to be responsible for a 14% sucker bet. I'd rather have everyone playing it and having fun at a reasonable price than have all the books say "don't play that bet, you'll drain your bankroll". Isn't that one of the gripes with other high-edge proprietary games?
But rather than shrinking the payout, what about raising the payout on the first after-come-out roll only? What if instead of paying 80-to-1 whenever it wins, it paid 250-to-1 if the hard point came on the very first roll after being established, with say a 25-1 payout otherwise. That hits the Wizard's criteria of having a high payout (assuming 250-1 is high enough) but also keeps the basic structure in place. That turns out to have an EV of -1.37%, less than the passline. On the other hand, would it be a letdown to "only" win 25-to-1 if the hard point doesn't repeat immediately?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 8th, 2010 at 10:49:19 PM
permalink
MathExtremist,
be careful on the house edge for the type of bet: Rules of thumb for game designers, - to maintain table hold:
Guidelines:
On an even money "main bet", like the flat pass line, a BJ bet, etc, 1.5% to 4% HE is the preferred range.
On a low multi-payout bet like the Fortune bet, pairplus in three card poker, etc, 7% is the desired range;
on a high payout prop bet (2 and 12, hop bet, etc) 10% - 20% is the range;
on progressive type or high-payout bets (>50:1 to start, etc) like the Fire bet, then > 20% is the range.
-----------
Guidelines like this exist to prevent table dumping and to maintain a decent table hold ("profitability") for the house offering the game. A 2.5% HE on a 1:1 flat bet like blackjack is fine; a 2.5% HE on a high payout prop bet is a dumping disaster. They are different beasts.
A low edge on a 1:1 flat bet, the player wins frequently, but is often "Slowly Attrited" on his money, but...
A low edge on a high payout bet, the player can lock in profit ("Black chips to pocket"), locking in table loses. This is what happened on the first version of three card poker in Atlantic City way back when. It's original bonus table had the house edge of a flat bet, and the tables consistently lost. They were yanked, and Three Card had to be re-introduced in Mississippi a few years later...
On a busy crap game, a side bet that pays out too much can be hidden to some degree by all the other action on the table.
But a lot of places took out the fire bet when it dumped, (Sunset Station is a case in point), particularly because the Fire bet pays out jackpots when the table is already dumping via 5 or 6 consecutive pass line points hitting anyway, compounding the problem. The Hard Pass bet pays when the pass line is already paying, and when the hardways are paying too, so a lot of money is leaving the table, - and a lot of it to be locked in by players, locking in a loss for the house.
Players shouldn't bicker about a 200:1 payout if the house edge is 15% - IF it hits for them. If they bet a nickle and win a thousand, it's pretty much JUST the same to them if they had won $1,200 instead, but the extra $200 diference each time can save or hurt the house, when it is deciding to keep a new game, - or take it out!
Let's put it this way, concerning high payout bets: if you win the lottery for $6 million, would you say "I was really rooked because the house edge was %50!" or would you just smile and retire.
If I were a casino manager and saw a prop bet that starts at 25:1 and goes up - and has a house edge of less than 12%, I wouldn't put it on any of my tables, because I have light bills to pay. If I saw it less than 5%, like 1.37%, I'd pass out - and never consider it.
You can peruse the game sections for their math at www.wizardofodds.com for pretty much all the successful games out there, - and you will see that the guidelines above are strictly adhered to for each "type" of bet.
be careful on the house edge for the type of bet: Rules of thumb for game designers, - to maintain table hold:
Guidelines:
On an even money "main bet", like the flat pass line, a BJ bet, etc, 1.5% to 4% HE is the preferred range.
On a low multi-payout bet like the Fortune bet, pairplus in three card poker, etc, 7% is the desired range;
on a high payout prop bet (2 and 12, hop bet, etc) 10% - 20% is the range;
on progressive type or high-payout bets (>50:1 to start, etc) like the Fire bet, then > 20% is the range.
-----------
Guidelines like this exist to prevent table dumping and to maintain a decent table hold ("profitability") for the house offering the game. A 2.5% HE on a 1:1 flat bet like blackjack is fine; a 2.5% HE on a high payout prop bet is a dumping disaster. They are different beasts.
A low edge on a 1:1 flat bet, the player wins frequently, but is often "Slowly Attrited" on his money, but...
A low edge on a high payout bet, the player can lock in profit ("Black chips to pocket"), locking in table loses. This is what happened on the first version of three card poker in Atlantic City way back when. It's original bonus table had the house edge of a flat bet, and the tables consistently lost. They were yanked, and Three Card had to be re-introduced in Mississippi a few years later...
On a busy crap game, a side bet that pays out too much can be hidden to some degree by all the other action on the table.
But a lot of places took out the fire bet when it dumped, (Sunset Station is a case in point), particularly because the Fire bet pays out jackpots when the table is already dumping via 5 or 6 consecutive pass line points hitting anyway, compounding the problem. The Hard Pass bet pays when the pass line is already paying, and when the hardways are paying too, so a lot of money is leaving the table, - and a lot of it to be locked in by players, locking in a loss for the house.
Players shouldn't bicker about a 200:1 payout if the house edge is 15% - IF it hits for them. If they bet a nickle and win a thousand, it's pretty much JUST the same to them if they had won $1,200 instead, but the extra $200 diference each time can save or hurt the house, when it is deciding to keep a new game, - or take it out!
Let's put it this way, concerning high payout bets: if you win the lottery for $6 million, would you say "I was really rooked because the house edge was %50!" or would you just smile and retire.
If I were a casino manager and saw a prop bet that starts at 25:1 and goes up - and has a house edge of less than 12%, I wouldn't put it on any of my tables, because I have light bills to pay. If I saw it less than 5%, like 1.37%, I'd pass out - and never consider it.
You can peruse the game sections for their math at www.wizardofodds.com for pretty much all the successful games out there, - and you will see that the guidelines above are strictly adhered to for each "type" of bet.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 9th, 2010 at 11:21:26 AM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearI'm gonna ignore the math for a moment, and just assume you're right.
The Wiz make a valid point: There's nothing unique here.
The first part of the bet is that the next roll is a hard point, or loses. This is equal to hopping the 4 hard numbers for 25% of the bet. The second part is like taking the proceeds of the hop and parlaying it on the hard number.
While it's an interesting idea, there's nothing unique about it. Any player who wishes to achieve similar results (or maybe better results) can simply hop and parlay.
Hmmm.... Now THERE'S some math I can wrap my head around - except I have to leave now for my in-laws for dinner....
If there was a requirement for a bet to be different than other bets, then what is the Any Seven bet for?
I can hop the different 7 combinations and get paid better to boot, yet the Any Seven bet is on the felt too!
I like Dan's alterations about the natural and craps comeout rolls being a push. Of course the acid test for me is, Would I play the bet?
Well, I want to feel like I have a chance at a bet, and this one seems a long shot. I will play the Fire Bet, but that has a remote chance for a 1000:1 payoff. Also, as pointed out, a working hardway bet effectively results in a 100 for 1 payout if it is parlayed. However, you have to risk 4 units to the comeout 7, so that accounts for some of the odds discrepancy between 100:1 and the suggested 80:1 for this bet. The payout alone would keep educated people from playing the bet, but that doesn't mean the bet would not get played........
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 9th, 2010 at 7:17:03 PM
permalink
Why just on come-out rolls? Seems to me there's no reason to not also have a Hard Come bet. It would mean an alteration to the proposed table layout, but there is NO reason to limit this to come-out rolls.Quote: MathExtremistThe Hard Pass bet is a craps side bet made on the shooter's come-out roll.
The 'requirement' stems from the desire to get a casino to pay for the concept. If it's not unique, why would they pay?Quote: RaleighCrapsIf there was a requirement for a bet to be different than other bets, then what is the Any Seven bet for?
I can hop the different 7 combinations and get paid better to boot, yet the Any Seven bet is on the felt too!
You're right that hopping the 7s is better than the Any 7 - unless you're betting it for amounts that don't divide by 3.
The Any 7 still exists for the same reason the Big 6/8 still exists - it costs the casinos nothing to have it, and people will bet it.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 9th, 2010 at 8:15:28 PM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearWhy just on come-out rolls? Seems to me there's no reason to not also have a Hard Come bet. It would mean an alteration to the proposed table layout, but there is NO reason to limit this to come-out rolls.
Dave, that's a very good point. Bet it anytime: Hard Come Bet - or....Hard Point bet! If a hardways is thrown next, it moves/parlays to that hardway number, else it loses. Again, it could also be "off on a natural," win or lose on a hard or easy number, to pay 4:1, so a one unit bet becomes 5 unit on the hardway. Bet a dollar, it's parlayed to a nickel hardway number; bet a nickel, it's parlayed to $25 on the hardway - waiting to hit again.
With it being off if a natural's thrown, then there's 4 ways to win-and-parlay (hard 4,6,8,10) and 20 to lose (5 & 9, and easy 4,6,8, 10); 4/20 = 5:1, parlays at 4:1 plus original bet, 16% HE, just like the any-7 (so what? - it does so much!)
From there it's a now hardways bet waiting to repeat - at a bigger value - waiting to hit.
A betting line could be placed in the prop area - between the ANY-7 line and the hardway boxes below - right between them both. If it loses, stickman locks it up. If it wins, stickman parlays it to its hardways number, just below it. Boom!
Love it, a lot can be done with this.....Math Extremist - what a sharp idea.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 9th, 2010 at 10:18:02 PM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearWhy just on come-out rolls? Seems to me there's no reason to not also have a Hard Come bet. It would mean an alteration to the proposed table layout, but there is NO reason to limit this to come-out rolls.
Quote: PaigowdanA betting line could be placed in the prop area - between the ANY-7 line and the hardway boxes below - right between them both. If it loses, stickman locks it up. If it wins, stickman parlays it to its hardways number, just below it. Boom!
You're right, but the only reason I'm hesitant to offer it is due to procedure concerns. As I currently see it, the number for the Hard Pass is indicated by the puck (if the bet is still live). If you start adding Hard Come bets on non-come-out rolls, the base dealers will need to do a lot of chip moving and possibly lammer work, unless the bet is handled differently than I envision. I thought that would slow the game down too much.
Dan, are you suggesting that a single wagering area in the prop box could handle the bet regardless of if it's a comeout or not? I'm trying to see how that'd work without the stick hating me for making his job too hard. I agree, it's ideal if the procedure can be worked out so the bet can be made every roll. Then it'd get really interesting.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 9th, 2010 at 10:36:16 PM
permalink
Since the bet might not win even once in several hours, I don't think it would be very popular.
I didn't vote because there is no bet at craps that I WOULD make.
I didn't vote because there is no bet at craps that I WOULD make.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 10th, 2010 at 12:54:15 AM
permalink
Quote: mkl654321Since the bet might not win even once in several hours, I don't think it would be very popular.
I didn't vote because there is no bet at craps that I WOULD make.
Huh??!!! Wrong! And you're a mathematician!
Concerning one variation of Math Extremeist (S.F's) bet - If you push on a natural thrown next, win on any hardways place number thrown next, and lose on an easy place number thrown next, then the math is:
12 naturals = no action, pushed, and still up for action...
20 = easy point numbers (4,5,6,8,9,10)
4 = hard 4,6,8,10.
from 36 possible two-dice combos.
4/20 = once in five rolls where decisions occur. That's NOT rare. And in version where it is rare, it ain't as rare as the Fire bet, not at all.
The fire bet doesn't win often either - except for once in several DAYS at some locations. So what?! A bad bet? No...Wish I had owned it....Jackpot bets are like that, but M.E's Hard Pass bet can be tailored for frequent hits like a hardways come bet, too, also innovative, - though you saw an infrequently hitting version that is closer to the Fire bet.
Let us not judge harshly...for MathExtremist IS a game designer who has production games being distributed - which is something VERY few people can say....
I was just at DEQ Systems today on Warm Springs & Bermuda here in Las Vegas, and Rob Scott (V.P. of new games development) pointed out a game (a sharp progressive BJ JP) that MathExtremist desgined himself and that went production. We used his real name in conversation. DEQ's position is that, "It's sharp, it's good, and we're selling it. Glad we have it."
As a fellow game designer, I think MathExtremist knows exactly what he's doing, and has come up with a Great crap game side bet idea that is VERY flexible, brilliant, and tailorable, - and after seeing HIS products being distributed by the same distributor that I use.
If there is no crap game wager that you would bet...then why reject a new crap bet, and how you would know? That admission is like a virgin discussing Dr. Ruth Westhiemer.
In designing a GOOD crap bet, you're designing something that they can win at (though not as often as the house, as is for ALL games), but that is EASIER to play, more interesting to play, and helps the house provide a table game experience that's better for all. And at a casino sometimes losing is winning, if you're there to have fun, shoot dice, and shoot the breeze. If you think you're at a casino to pay your mortgage, then we all wake up to our daytime jobs to do that.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 10th, 2010 at 1:26:37 AM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremistYou're right, but the only reason I'm hesitant to offer it is due to procedure concerns. As I currently see it, the number for the Hard Pass is indicated by the puck (if the bet is still live). If you start adding Hard Come bets on non-come-out rolls, the base dealers will need to do a lot of chip moving and possibly lammer work, unless the bet is handled differently than I envision. I thought that would slow the game down too much.
Dan, are you suggesting that a single wagering area in the prop box could handle the bet regardless of if it's a comeout or not? I'm trying to see how that'd work without the stick hating me for making his job too hard. I agree, it's ideal if the procedure can be worked out so the bet can be made every roll. Then it'd get really interesting.
M.E., I'm a crap dealer and Pai Gow dealer at Fiesta Henderson.
I think:
Yes - it's best handled by stick, though can be handled by either a base dealer or the stickman, with some pro's and con's that favor the stick somewhat in terms of procedures and quickness on a busy crap game. As a generic "hard pass and come," this is not hard for the stick position, but would be murder for a base dealer in midplay as a come-style bet. [The base dealer has two different Modes for come-out and for mid-play action. For the stick, it's all the same bet handling.] Your basic crap game idea is brilliant and very flexible, and a good crap game idea can be handled by either stick or base dealers, but your idea is best tailored for the stickman to handle on a busy game, saying this as a both crap dealer and game designer, even though my "big hit" was a Pai Gow product. [God willing, soon to be only a game designer.]
My opinions on your basic and flexible game are this, and I sent this to you under another cover, but is worth discussing here!:
1. I like both the stick handling it with a betting bar above the hardways, and also with the base dealer moving the wager from a come area wager line to a "hard box number" place bet area. A good game idea can be implemented in many ways - so as long as it starts out as a good game idea that's fun to play - which this one is! You ought to move on it, and get it ready for G2E, and get a showing at Fiesta!
2. If the bet is to be handled by the base dealer (not stickman), then a "hard pass/come" line strip can go alongside of the pass/don't pass lines - just inside the come area - as a hard pass/hard come "line." This way, it is the base dealer who handles it, and HE moves it up to the new "hardways area" on the place number. This also way gives the advantage that the hard pass is NOT an automatic parlay, - but defaults to "same bet" status - and the player gets paid 4 units on a hard point hit with the "hard pass/come" line, - with only ONE unit moving up to the "hard box."
AND...the player STILL has the option to say "press" or "parlay." A Very flexible way, and it's easy for the base dealer on the comeout roll, as he has little else to do on a comeout roll but to light the puck. (Not so when used as a hard come bet, though, procedure-wise, in mid-game with a lot of come bets, place bets, field bets, etc!)
3. If your hard pass/hard-come bet is more of a parlay nature by default, then the stickman/props area is better, - just above the hardways, IMHO. If a hardways rolls, parlay 5x to the hardways area for the player; easyway rolls - lock it up. Natural rolls - no action, stickman just processes the C&E, Horn Bet, etc, as he already does. Easy.
Player wants it down, player says to stick, "Take down my hard-6" - just like a player already does, no big deal. It is a LOT easier for stick to handle, because if a hardways is rolled, he just bumps it and makes it a hardways bet. If an easy point is rolled, he locks it up; if a natural is rolled, he leaves it alone and just handles his horn bets and C & E's.
4. This bet might not be good as a one-roll bet - it would be mimicking the HOP bets, (not popular with players and dealers), awkward, and constantly losing, so it would constantly have to be re-loaded, ug! This would risk "push back" by the casino, dealers, and players who are trying out your new bet.
5. If you have it start out as a come type of bet, where it loses on a crap number, but wins on a 7 or 11, the initial payout would be lower at 3:1 (because come-bets win more often on naturals, as 7 & 11 win 8 times, and it loses 4 times on a crap 2,3, or 12.) You would also have differing payouts: a 7 or 11 is even money, a hard point is 3:1, AND a crap number or easy-way is a loss. For one bet to have too many payouts is TOO complicated for crap dealers and players alike, and they will bad mouth it! Don't make it a horn bet!! By pushing on a natural, you ease processing for the dealers and the players to learn the bet, because "if it's a natural number, leave it alone, if it's a point number, it wins or loses, hard or easy."
Anyway, this new crap bet design is really brilliant, - SO much can be done with it - and with a layout that makes this new bet easy to deal and bet, it should get some monster action, and make you rich. You don't need to duplicate the Fire bet (because that's been done), so...
NOW THINK: An "Any hardway parlay" bet that's just ONE unit to play - and it's also EASY to play and deal - will be a hit. BIG TIME.
Nail down the table procedures and the artwork, and let it take off!
F>cking Brilliant!...I salute you...
Regards,
Dan
******************
Note: one tricky thing - because it doesn't lose on any natural, - so...it also doesn't lose on a Seven-out, unless it already became a hardways! THIS is why it should be placed in the prop area NEXT to and (- and just below or above) the ANY-7 bet BIG RED bet.
Stickman pays the existing hardways first, then parlays the new hardways to the hardways area.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 10th, 2010 at 6:38:18 AM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremistYou're right, but the only reason I'm hesitant to offer it is due to procedure concerns. As I currently see it, the number for the Hard Pass is indicated by the puck.
The procedure and puck indicator you described makes it simple enough for the stickman to operate on his own. Adding the Hard Come makes it just a little more complicated.
Currently, the FireBet is the only bet that cannot be made at any time. Any reasonable craps player understands the limitation of the betting for the FireBet. (Although I do NOT understand why, in some casinos, if the shooter's first roll is a 2/3/7/11/12, you can't still make the FireBet!)
If you make the Hard Pass a come-out only bet, people are gonna ask why, and complain. Heck, it may not even get to a casino floor because people will question it.
My suggestion is to allow the bet at any time. Put five boxes on each side for dealer control, or five in the middle for stick control.
For dealer control: One box (like the come box) to initiate the bet, and four boxes near the numbers to move the bet waiting for resolution.
For stick control: One box near the horn to initiate the bet, and four boxes near the hard boxes to move the bet waiting for resolution.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 10th, 2010 at 7:58:50 AM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearMy suggestion is to allow the bet at any time. Put five boxes on each side for dealer control, or five in the middle for stick control.
For dealer control: One box (like the come box) to initiate the bet, and four boxes near the numbers to move the bet waiting for resolution.
For stick control: One box near the horn to initiate the bet, and four boxes near the hard boxes to move the bet waiting for resolution.
Okay, I'm going to try to figure this out and sketch a few possible layouts. I've already done the Hard Pass-only version with stick control, but that only needs one box because the puck gives the rest of the info. But you've convinced me to give the "any time" approach a go. A few basic mechanical questions:
1) Is there any way to upload images to this site? If not, I'll have to post them on mine and send links. For now I'll use ASCII art.
2) Is there a reference anywhere on the standard dimensions for craps layouts? I don't mean the felt, I mean the betting areas. For example, what are the dimensions of the Hard Four box, or the Place 6 box?
Right now, I'm thinking the any time option might be easier for dealer control - because all things equal, two dealers can work twice as fast as one stick thereby moving the game along more quickly if everyone's betting. Dan's suggestion is to have a player-booked area by the come box where players make the bet. If the next roll is a hard number, the bet would move to one of four boxes -- and right now, I see two possibilities. One is skinny vertical boxes in between the number boxes. Right now, the number boxes look like this:
[4][5][6][8][9][10]
I might add four one-chip-wide intermediate strips, like this:
[4][][5][][6][8][][9][][10]
where the blanks go from the top to bottom of the box, so there should be enough room for all the bets. This might expand the number boxes into the boxperson's working area, but hopefully not too much.
The other approach would be to set aside an area in the upper portion of the come box, closest to the center of the table with the four boxes. For example:
---------------------
| | [][][][]|
| | COME |
| | |
| ------------------
\-------------------/
where the strip around the outside of the COME box is the new Hard Pass/Hard Come betting area, or:
---------------------
| | [][]|
| | COME [][]|
| | |
| ------------------
\-------------------/
As dealers, which would you prefer? (a) Being a base dealer and moving the bets from a player-serviced wagering area to boxes near the numbers, or (b) being on stick, booking bets on a dealer-serviced wagering area, and then moving them to another numbered box in the prop area?
Thanks for all the feedback!
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 10th, 2010 at 9:08:17 AM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremistAs dealers, which would you prefer? (a) Being a base dealer and moving the bets from a player-serviced wagering area to boxes near the numbers, or (b) being on stick, booking bets on a dealer-serviced wagering area, and then moving them to another numbered box in the prop area?
Thanks for all the feedback!
Since box and surveillance would be responsible for the bets, I choose the base dealer to set the bets in front of box, just as they do with the fire bet.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
September 10th, 2010 at 9:21:26 AM
permalink
I voted that I would not make the bet. Seems my Craps friends have also tired of the fire bet, due to its infrequent hits, so they say.
But, in my same breath, I add still nice to have choices.
Good luck with your "Hard Pass" bet adventures.
But, in my same breath, I add still nice to have choices.
Good luck with your "Hard Pass" bet adventures.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
September 10th, 2010 at 10:24:23 AM
permalink
Glad you see my point.Quote: MathExtremistBut you've convinced me to give the "any time" approach a go.
ONE chip wide? That means, what?, four chips total? That means that it can't accommodate everyone playing. Are you expecting this to not be a popular bet?Quote: MathExtremistI might add four one-chip-wide intermediate strips,
FYI: Hop bet positions can only hold two chips for two simple reasons: It's not a popular bet, and it's a one roll bet. Horns, etc. are slightly larger because, although they are also one roll, they are more popular. Hard ways are sized to allow every player because they are both popular and long term bets.
You make the box small, and you're just begging people to assume it's a stupid, unpopular bet.
Here's how I see it:
-----------------------------------------
| D | | | | | | |
| C | 4 | 5 | 6 | 8 | 9 | 10 |
|---| | | | | | |
| | |------------------------------------
| | | H 4 | H 6 | H 8 | H 10 |
| | |------------------------------------
| | | P | C O M E | |
| | |HARD|-------------------------| DC |
| | | C | F I E L D | |
\ \ \----------------------------------|
\ \-----------------------------------|
\------------------------------------|
Note that I also added a DC next to the stick. (Even though I don't bet the don'ts, it's always bothered me that the one small place for it is hard to reach if you're not close.)
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 10th, 2010 at 2:07:53 PM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearGlad you see my point.
ONE chip wide? That means, what?, four chips total? That means that it can't accommodate everyone playing. Are you expecting this to not be a popular bet?
That's why I was asking how tall the number boxes are. I thought they were at least 6 chips tall (from the very back line to the edge of the come box). Do you think it needs to hold 8 or more? If so, your way is probably the only feasible solution: a 2x4 or 2x5 chip-size box for each of the 4 boxes.
Does anyone know a good local felt designer? I'd like to get a full-sized graphic image file for the layout so I can play with dimensions.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 10th, 2010 at 7:04:37 PM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremist
Does anyone know a good local felt designer? I'd like to get a full-sized graphic image file for the layout so I can play with dimensions.
Try Alex Garay (alexfgaray@yahoo.com). He's based in California and has always done a quick turnaround for me.
September 10th, 2010 at 7:17:22 PM
permalink
Oh. Yeah, when you include the don't come and come boxes, yeah, it probably is 6, or maybe even 7, chips tall.Quote: MathExtremistThat's why I was asking how tall the number boxes are. I thought they were at least 6 chips tall (from the very back line to the edge of the come box).
If you think it will be a popular bet, then it DOES have to have enough space for every player.
Additionally, the player positions have to be in the same relative position as the place/come positions. To introduce a new relative positioning system will kill the idea. Yeah, I know people should be intelligent enough to handle it, but they're not. It's gonna be hard enough to get people to understand the difference between the 'duplicate' hard boxes.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 10th, 2010 at 7:52:42 PM
permalink
I don't think this would be worthwhile for the house to do for come bets. Here's why. There are several reasons why I feel this way.
- Center bets with high payouts are guided by the stickman and the pit and watched closely. The worst bets outside of the center are the 4 and 10 at HA = 6.67 percent. Dice frequently hit the place bets and these bets would easily get confused with other place bets. The place / come / DC / Lay area is quite crowded at a full table. That's why you don't see Fire Bets, hardways, and horn bets made outside of the middle. As well, the stick's job is to sell these bets to the players while it is the job of the dealers to track the 8 players on their side.
- How do you indicate that you are making the hardways bet on the come out roll? Do you put a chip on top of your chip indicating that it's the HW bet? You would have a number of discrepancies where the player was claiming it was $5 when the hardway hits and no bet at all (a $10 come) when it doesn't.
- Logistically, it would be a nightmare to make these payouts especially at a full table. It would be difficult for the stick to establish an 80:1 payout outside of the center and for the pit / stick to verify that the bet was made.
- It would be much easier for a table designer to add a simple box to the center of the table for the hardways bet than to put it on every number.
And for the record, I don't like an 80:1 payout but lose when any throw is not a hardways. I like the bet where it pushes if the come out is not a point and pay fifty to one. This bet would hit, on average every 1:59.4 comeout rolls or probably about once every two hours.
Just my two cents.
- Center bets with high payouts are guided by the stickman and the pit and watched closely. The worst bets outside of the center are the 4 and 10 at HA = 6.67 percent. Dice frequently hit the place bets and these bets would easily get confused with other place bets. The place / come / DC / Lay area is quite crowded at a full table. That's why you don't see Fire Bets, hardways, and horn bets made outside of the middle. As well, the stick's job is to sell these bets to the players while it is the job of the dealers to track the 8 players on their side.
- How do you indicate that you are making the hardways bet on the come out roll? Do you put a chip on top of your chip indicating that it's the HW bet? You would have a number of discrepancies where the player was claiming it was $5 when the hardway hits and no bet at all (a $10 come) when it doesn't.
- Logistically, it would be a nightmare to make these payouts especially at a full table. It would be difficult for the stick to establish an 80:1 payout outside of the center and for the pit / stick to verify that the bet was made.
- It would be much easier for a table designer to add a simple box to the center of the table for the hardways bet than to put it on every number.
And for the record, I don't like an 80:1 payout but lose when any throw is not a hardways. I like the bet where it pushes if the come out is not a point and pay fifty to one. This bet would hit, on average every 1:59.4 comeout rolls or probably about once every two hours.
Just my two cents.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
September 10th, 2010 at 8:47:37 PM
permalink
VERY good point.Quote: boymimboDice frequently hit the place bets and these bets would easily get confused with other place bets.
I retract the drawing I made, and suggest that 5 boxes be added to the middle, and have this be a stick controlled bet - or 4 boxes in the middle, and one box on each end to initiate the bet.
As I envision it, and I believe MathExtremist envisioned it, there would be a new position on the felt to initial the bet. Kinda like the come box where the chips are then moved to the number awaiting resolution.Quote: boymimboHow do you indicate that you are making the hardways bet on the come out roll? Do you put a chip on top of your chip indicating that it's the HW bet?
MathExtremist -
It occurs to me that there probably is room in the place/come bet area to have these chip stacks as well. I.E. Place bets are on the line (or short box, if there is one), come bets get moved to touch the line. Your hard bets can be moved to the middle area of the box.
The puck can be placed in back, on the don't come number box.
Although I agree that BoyMimbo has a point about confusion if the dice hit it.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 6th, 2011 at 10:56:40 AM
permalink
-----
October 6th, 2011 at 12:36:37 PM
permalink
Yes. I know its a high HA bet but I would play it from time to time, would be great to make one "for the boys" too. I like your idea.
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because."
— E.E. Cummings
October 8th, 2011 at 5:42:36 AM
permalink
-----
