Game math
In Nevada, you now need to go through one of the GCB's authorized 3rd-party labs. Last I checked, that's either GLI or BMM. Costs will depend on complexity. Earlier this summer I got quotes from both companies on a few games. They were reasonably close, sometimes GLI was more, sometimes BMM was more. For a medium-complex poker game, with results verified by simulation (not full iteration, which is usually too big and not needed), you're probably looking at 6-8k.
Furthermore you could just PM them without saying I'll PM you.Quote: MathExtremistWhy PM? Seems like generally useful and non-private information.
In Nevada, you now need to go through one of the GCB's authorized 3rd-party labs. Last I checked, that's either GLI or BMM. Costs will depend on complexity. Earlier this summer I got quotes from both companies on a few games. They were reasonably close, sometimes GLI was more, sometimes BMM was more.
I'd be quite interested in this info, many thanks.Quote: MathExtremist.... generally useful ... information.....For a medium-complex poker game, with results verified by simulation...you're probably looking at 6-8k.
Quote: MathExtremistWhy PM? Seems like generally useful and non-private information.
In Nevada, you now need to go through one of the GCB's authorized 3rd-party labs. Last I checked, that's either GLI or BMM. Costs will depend on complexity. Earlier this summer I got quotes from both companies on a few games. They were reasonably close, sometimes GLI was more, sometimes BMM was more. For a medium-complex poker game, with results verified by simulation (not full iteration, which is usually too big and not needed), you're probably looking at 6-8k.
How long does it take and is it useful in other gaming jurisdictions besides Nevada?
Quote: UCivanWhy PM? Good question for PaigowDan.
I think Dan did the right thing. Im guessing PM was necessary for the following reasons:
a) POC (email, address, phones ...) info is private and is best handle via PM.
b) Listing of POC and additional details here can be considered advertising is not encouraged by admin. Furthermore, such solicitation can be a violation of the boards TOC agreement.
PGD, can you please PM me the info also?
Quote: shrimpboatcaptHow long does it take and is it useful in other gaming jurisdictions besides Nevada?
Nevada GCB is biggest (or one of the biggest?) agency, and Vegas is the World's capital of gambling, chances are GLI and BMM reports can be used in other jurisdictions. The best thing to do is contact other jurisdictions directly to get the most up do date and info.
Quote: MathExtremistWhy PM? Seems like generally useful and non-private information.
In Nevada, you now need to go through one of the GCB's authorized 3rd-party labs. Last I checked, that's either GLI or BMM. Costs will depend on complexity. Earlier this summer I got quotes from both companies on a few games. They were reasonably close, sometimes GLI was more, sometimes BMM was more. For a medium-complex poker game, with results verified by simulation (not full iteration, which is usually too big and not needed), you're probably looking at 6-8k.
It takes skill and knowledge to prepare such reports. However, since there are only TWO labs, the price you quoted may had been influenced by a monopolistic factor. Would it be better to allow independent certified experts to prepare the report also (experts must go through rigorous testing, background check, and conflict of interest investigation as part of the certification process) to open up the competition?
I think competition is good for the consumers, and it will make Zegna suit more affordable for the certified independent experts (Accounting field has CPA, engineering field has PE, and law ..., why not a rigorous certification program for experts in statistic & gaming math).
We're not talking about private personal info. The info requested can be found on the internet already as well as advertised in a variety of media. So a) does not apply.Quote: 777I think Dan did the right thing. Im guessing PM was necessary for the following reasons:
a) POC (email, address, phones ...) info is private and is best handle via PM.
b) Listing of POC and additional details here can be considered advertising is not encouraged by admin. Furthermore, such solicitation can be a violation of the boards TOC agreement.
PGD, can you please PM me the info also?
b) Advertising? Hardly. This is information exchange. One member helping others by saving them the trouble of searching. Clearly well within the spirit of why WoV exists.
Dan: Post it.
1. Submit a Quote Request for your game to GLI and/or BMM (links below), including a Rules of Play, dealing procedure, and your independent math report from CRM, Mr. How or Mr. Shipman, etc., whom ever you had used.
2. You CANNOT massage or tweak game and math specs at this point, you submit to GLI/BMM when you've finished the testing process and math you did with your independent math guy or gal, and are ready to go forward to pitch and install the game armed with the lab report.
3. Specify the state letter you wish to receive with the report, for the specific locale you're installing/trialing in.
4. They send you a quote and a customer sign up form, and a short agreement of what they do, and do not promise. Expect a $6K to $8K range if complex, less if a simpler game.
5. Sign, date, and include the check. It'll take 4 to 6 weeks or so to complete. You will review at a couple of points various spec sheets they produce, as you'll sign off on the specs of your game as they understand them, and they will do the sim run and produce the report.
GLI home page
BMM page.
Quote: PaigowdanOkay, here's the gaming GLI/BMM math report drill:
1. Submit a Quote Request for your game to GLI and/or BMM (links below), including a Rules of Play, dealing procedure, and your independent math report from CRM, Mr. How or Mr. Shipman, etc., whom ever you had used.
2. You CANNOT massage or tweak game and math specs at this point, you submit to GLI/BMM when you've finished the testing process and math you did with your independent math guy or gal, and are ready to go forward to pitch and install the game armed with the lab report.
3. Specify the state letter you wish to receive with the report, for the specific locale you're installing/trialing in.
4. They send you a quote and a customer sign up form, and a short agreement of what they do, and do not promise. Expect a $6K to $8K range if complex, less if a simpler game.
5. Sign, date, and include the check. It'll take 4 to 6 weeks or so to complete. You will review at a couple of points various spec sheets they produce, as you'll sign off on the specs of your game as they understand them, and they will do the sim run and produce the report.
GLI home page
BMM page.
Great info.
That's already the way it works: anyone can apply to be certified. Here's the application process:Quote: 777It takes skill and knowledge to prepare such reports. However, since there are only TWO labs, the price you quoted may had been influenced by a monopolistic factor. Would it be better to allow independent certified experts to prepare the report also (experts must go through rigorous testing, background check, and conflict of interest investigation as part of the certification process) to open up the competition?
http://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=49#investigations
Item 21 is Instructions to Applicants for Registration as an Independent Testing Lab
Quote: PaigowdanOkay, here's the gaming GLI/BMM math report drill:
1. Submit a Quote Request for your game to GLI and/or BMM (links below), including a Rules of Play, dealing procedure, and your independent math report from CRM, Mr. How or Mr. Shipman, etc., whom ever you had used.
2. You CANNOT massage or tweak game and math specs at this point, you submit to GLI/BMM when you've finished the testing process and math you did with your independent math guy or gal, and are ready to go forward to pitch and install the game armed with the lab report.
3. Specify the state letter you wish to receive with the report, for the specific locale you're installing/trialing in.
4. They send you a quote and a customer sign up form, and a short agreement of what they do, and do not promise. Expect a $6K to $8K range if complex, less if a simpler game.
5. Sign, date, and include the check. It'll take 4 to 6 weeks or so to complete. You will review at a couple of points various spec sheets they produce, as you'll sign off on the specs of your game as they understand them, and they will do the sim run and produce the report.
GLI home page
BMM page.
Per item 1, the independent math guys did all the hard work. It is hard for me to see how GLI/BMM justify the $6K-8K per item 4 if ALL the hard works were done by the independent math guys?
We need more competitions in this gaming analysis/certification arena. CRM, Mr. How or Mr. Shipman, et. al., please apply for the gaming board certification ASAP...
Is it necessary to ask the independent math guys, GLI/BMM to sign NDA?
Quote: MathExtremistWhy PM? Seems like generally useful and non-private information.
In Nevada, you now need to go through one of the GCB's authorized 3rd-party labs. Last I checked, that's either GLI or BMM. Costs will depend on complexity. Earlier this summer I got quotes from both companies on a few games. They were reasonably close, sometimes GLI was more, sometimes BMM was more. For a medium-complex poker game, with results verified by simulation (not full iteration, which is usually too big and not needed), you're probably looking at 6-8k.
If the fee for a medium-complex game is in the range of 6-8K, what is your best guess of a fee for a less complex game -- let's use craps side bet such as Fire Bet & All-Tall-Small Bet as a point of reference for degree of simple/complexity?
I got a quote for a simple dice game at around 2k. This is a game that I can do in 5 minutes in a spreadsheet. But the big regulated labs have minimum setup fees and administration charges, etc. They also have lots of overhead, including employees and office leases. That's why you won't find solo guys like Charles or Stephen or me applying to be an independent test lab. It's not worth the hassle if all you're doing is running iterations on card games. And that's not where the labs make the money anyway, it's in EGD testing. If I had to guess, there's probably less than $500k/year in total new table game math work even at GLI or BMM prices. The market's too small for it to be a viable business by itself. Contrast with the slot game market...Quote: 777If the fee for a medium-complex game is in the range of 6-8K, what is your best guess of a fee for a less complex game -- let's use craps side bet such as Fire Bet & All-Tall-Small Bet as a point of reference for degree of simple/complexity?
Dan, what do you think? What was Galaxy's annual expense for table game math (not regulatory, just the calculations)?
I'd hardly describe either of those as simple.Quote: 777If the fee for a medium-complex game is in the range of 6-8K, what is your best guess of a fee for a less complex game -- let's use craps side bet such as Fire Bet & All-Tall-Small Bet as a point of reference for degree of simple/complexity?
Simple to describe, maybe. But a nightmare to analyze.
