Paigowdan
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May 3rd, 2015 at 1:36:30 AM permalink
There has been some new game intros recently here in Nevada: Pai Wow poker, 40x Blackjack, DJ Wild, Go Fore it, and Poker with a Joker at Green Valley Ranch (which is a remarkable place to obtain a Nevada Field Trial.)

The new game is a casino-banked poker game where the players get five-card hands to play against the dealer - and with a fully wild joker floating around in the deck - which can end up in your hand, the dealer's hand, or on the community board, - which is pretty wild.

The humdingers of the game are pretty good:
1. On your five card hand, you can elect to either play your full five-card hand - as is without using the community board if you don't need it, or discard one card to add to a two-card comminty board, - discarding what you think is your hand's weakest card. Watch out if you have a flush draw with a straight draw or a good pair....Now this is a little bit like Video Poker - nail the big hand and Hold It All, else "draw" by adding in the community board to your hand, -- if you need to.

Obviously, if you have a four card flush draw or outside straight draw, you go for it unless it requires breaking up a pat pair of 8's or better (in which case you have a shot at two pairs, trips, quads, and still may have a draw, too). Let me also say that IF you get three to a straight but with the joker (e.g., 7-8-9-joker), you get a "Super-Draw" scenario, where you have FOUR ranks that can complete your straight - two ranks on each outside end - as the joker can move around wide to complete your straight (get a 5 or a 6 or a 10 or a jack, the joker will plug the straight for you. You will take this over a flush draw.)

2. After seeing your initial five cards, you may raise 1x or 3x, or fold, - if you have no face cards or any draw. You would fold about 1% of the time, as you consistently have a shot when the board is a later show. Fold only with a Jack-high hand or less with no draw at all, - pretty rare.

3. And this is the real kicker: the dealer has to show AND play his hand by a simple house way - before seeing the community board - so he may discard the wrong card.

That last feature makes this game remarkable: No other poker carnival game forces the dealer to set his hand blind before showing the community board - while all other community board casino poker games (like UTH, Texas Hold 'em Bonus, etc.) allow the dealer to declare his best hand after seeing the community board open to him, - so he can play his best hand against you "not blind." Not in this game: the dealer sets his hand blind by a house way - and hopes for the best, as do the players. So you get a last-call "Hail Mary" chance at the end of your round of play, virtually every time.

I also like the fact that the player is not forced to discard when he gets dealt a great "pat" five-card hand like a flush or a full house - he can just say "I'm sticking with THIS great hand dealt, - so I don't need the community board, and you can't force me to break up a monster hand." Good feature, making the discard optional to use the community board. Now...the player may still do so at his own choosing: If he gets a straight that is also four to a straight flush, he may gamble and try for the jackpot, - which is the best EV play in those rare circumstances, - but you retain that option at your control. Full House? break up the pair and use the board to try for the four-of-a-kind bonus if you want as a gambler - you already won the "wild-5" side bet on two pairs or better anyway, just using house money "for the try," is the thinking here. A Very Flexible Player's Poker game.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I know the man who developed this game, but don't want to say this is a plug - because what I am saying is that this man impressed me very much - friend or stranger or not - and that he not only came up with new poker-play stuff, - but that it looks good and plays very well. Very Exciting game from a good guy.

I will say that it is NO EASY FEAT getting your field trial at Green Valley Ranch Station, so the executives there clearly (and rightfully so, IMO) thought that both the man and his game deserved fine merit.

This game has a worthy shot, and this is my honest opinion, - even if I hadn't know him from Adam. I wish I had though of this stuff myself. I salute him.

Take a look of the recents field trial games in public play - and support them all if worthy - at:

Nevada Gaming Field trials as current
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Wizard
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May 3rd, 2015 at 3:17:27 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

There has been some new game intros recently here in Nevada: Pai Wow poker, 40x Blackjack, DJ Wild, Go Fore it, and Poker with a Joker at Green Valley Ranch (which is a remarkable place to obtain a Nevada Field Trial.)



Thanks for the information on Poker with a Joker. The GVR doesn't take chances in field trial games often. Where is this 40x blackjack game? Hasn't Pai Wow Poker been at the D, and previously Fitzgerald's, for as long as anybody can remember?
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Hunterhill
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May 3rd, 2015 at 4:07:13 AM permalink
PaiGowdan, I'm a little confused by "you discard a card to add to the community board. " When you say add to the community it makes it sound like others or possibly dealer can use it as part of the community board.
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Paigowdan
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May 3rd, 2015 at 4:46:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks for the information on Poker with a Joker. The GVR doesn't take chances in field trial games often.


Mike-
No, they [Station Casino Executives] do not play around at all. They want things right and correct, and they were quite thorough and meticulous during this field trial examination.

Both Dr. Al Lwin (the inventor) and myself (assisting him) had to complete five live game demonstrations for them, as well as many technical discussions on the math and the GLI reports that Dr. Lwin, myself, and Charles Mousseau paid great attention to, - just going into this field trial proposal.

The Station Casinos executives were extremely thorough, and I would absolutely say that this was the most demanding and meticulous game consideration field trial review that I had ever seen after many years in the business.

The Station Casino executives were very gracious and observant, - but I will say there was also a very strong and polite sense that "you gentlemen need to get this right, with a great game and great showing here - or else you may need to have your field trial somewhere downtown or in Reno...[cough, ahem...]" I will say we understood this going in, as Green Valley Ranch is a serious gaming property; it is a both high-end property, as well a serious gambling hall for those who wish to play for real. We took it very seriously.

It was not at all some sort of perfunctory "perhaps you'll do all right with a 'decent' game demo," - instead it was absolutely the most demanding and serious game demonstration requirements from a casino operator that I've seen, having been a part of this work in the many years of working in the industry, designing games, and demo-ing games and doing dealer training.

Stations executives had reviewed the game thoroughly by the time of only our the second game demonstration, asking very sharp game play questions (particularly Mr. Jeff C., the Director of Table Games at Green Valley Ranch, as well as another very sharp top executive known as Richard.) They actually had tested us very thoroughly to ensure that the game would be strongly supported, quizing us on everything from the reasons on Dr. Lwin's artwork decisions, and the selection of the initial pay tables to use, and all participants were serious; some of Al's decisions were over-riden by Jeff, and for the very best of production reasons. Keep in mind that the game was to go into their primary gaming pit, and into a "Gem" Station's property, and was to be open seven days a week for many hours per day. They absolutely expected and recieved 100% dedicated and professional support after they felt the game itself was proven worthy, and alluring to players, and very solid. I assure you, anyone can see Dr. Al Lwin available daily, and near or in GVR with his cell phone strapped to his belt on "atomic vibrate and flash."

And yes, Mike, you are right - Green Valley Ranch does not take chances in field trial games very often, but they will for a rare promising game where the inventor goes the extra mile (or hundred), operating on the basis that if the inventor supplies true good faith effort, then they will consider it. With that, I say that this guy Dr. Al Lwin deserves a salute from all on this. They expect and demand that the game is solid, the game is alluring to players, the procedures are secure, the math is solid, and attention to detail was carried out in good faith. Al went so far as to dictate that the two-card community board is drawn from the top of a five card packet, and not the bottom, to prevent hole carding on the game, for reasons of game protection. Now this is close attention to detail from a game designer.

There were four separate dealer training sessions, for day shift and swing shift, seperated by a few days of the week to insure that all dealers had covered training, inspite of their day-off schedules. The dealers who took quickly to the game were primarily their poker game and Pai Gow dealers, but all dealers had training exposure, if needed to cover the game. A few minor layout descriptions and additions for additional clarity were required ("Bonus bet requires player's hand to beat dealer" to prevent confusion and shot-taking, etc.), but all-in-all, an exceedingly fine intro, I believe.

If the game is very good, it'll make it, and I believe that it is, but in all honesty, the jury of gamblers is still out, - as they decide in the end.

All in all, a serious effort with a lot of care. It's got an awesome shot, and we shall see. I believe and hope the game will make it.

To answer Mike's statement that "GVR doesn't take chances in field trials games often," I can attest that this is true, and that they do not, but when they do offer a field trial, they take it seriously and professionally. The QA/QC bar is very high at Stations, and at GVR in particular.


Quote: Wizard

Where is this 40x blackjack game?


I like this thing. It is an impulse Blackjack side bet that is sexy: make the side bet, and you bet-raise 40x on it (actually it's 4x, as you bet 10% of your main bet, but still it is hot.) Some places may not like it because it can change basic strategy, which'll really upset old school players. But I think it'll get into some places, and is worthy.
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Paigowdan
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May 3rd, 2015 at 4:50:10 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

PaiGowdan, I'm a little confused by "you discard a card to add to the community board. " When you say add to the community it makes it sound like others or possibly dealer can use it as part of the community board.



If you discard a card from your five-card hand, you can use the community board with your [now] four-card hand, - for best 5-cards in six total.

However, should you be dealt a fantastic complete hand (a flush, or five-of-a-kind, a full house, etc.), you can just play that monster hand without the requirement that you break a great complete hand apart.
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DJTeddyBear
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May 3rd, 2015 at 5:56:01 AM permalink
Interesting. If it succeeds, I'll have to check it out.

Good luck with it.


I assume it's an even money bet, but where's the edge?

Also, is there a side bet?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paigowdan
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May 3rd, 2015 at 6:06:02 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Interesting. If it succeeds, I'll have to check it out.

Good luck with it.


I assume it's an even money bet, but where's the edge?

Also, is there a side bet?



Dave, the game is complete.
The edge is in the bonus bet, going for a better hand for it; bonus bet (like the blind bet) pays on a straight or better, like UTH. (And in the dealer's qualification, where the Ante is a push if the dealer lacks a pair of 2's or better - also same as UTH).

Also, and so the player's edge is in the option to play your full hand or to "draw more" [by connecting to the community board] - with this decision being the player's choice, - which in a way, is a tiny bit like VP on a table game - to hold or get more cards.

Also the player'sw edge or humdinger edge is in the dealer possibly blowing his hand at the end [by playing a house way blind - a first for a casino poker game], instead of declaring his hand with all cards available.

There is a side bet based on your original hand dealt, called the Wild-5 side bet, paying big on two pairs or better.

Either Mike or Steve How or Eliot will write on this game at their sites - in fact, it would be interesting to see if the game is somehow AP-able (I think it is relatively tough,- very tough).
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Lucky
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May 4th, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM permalink
Intriguing, Dan. I've been working on a 'poker joker' concept myself, but it's significantly different from the one you describe.

Congratulations on the trial. Keep us posted.
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MathExtremist
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May 4th, 2015 at 12:06:05 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Either Mike or Steve How or Eliot will write on this game at their sites - in fact, it would be interesting to see if the game is somehow AP-able (I think it is relatively tough,- very tough).


I don't know if the rules you posted are sufficient to do that. Can you post a rack card, either here or on your corporate site?
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Wizard
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May 4th, 2015 at 12:26:24 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Mike-
No, they [Station Casino Executives] do not play around at all. They want things right and correct, and they were quite thorough and meticulous during this field trial examination.



Then why did they install at least 100 Guaranteed Play machines at the Red Rock. I think the other Station casinos had plenty as well. The number of times I saw anybody playing Guaranteed Play --- Zero.

However, anybody can make a mistake.

I may have the chance to visit the GVR on Wednesday. Will Joker Poker be open in the afternoon?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2015 at 1:16:50 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Paigowdan

Mike-
No, they [Station Casino Executives] do not play around at all. They want things right and correct, and they were quite thorough and meticulous during this field trial examination.



Then why did they install at least 100 Guaranteed Play machines at the Red Rock. I think the other Station casinos had plenty as well. The number of times I saw anybody playing Guaranteed Play --- Zero.

However, anybody can make a mistake.

I may have the chance to visit the GVR on Wednesday. Will Joker Poker be open in the afternoon?


Yes. The game is open each afternoon and evening.

I do remember Guaranteed Play as well. It was a corporate level-decision where the properties were asked to install it, (that lacked a table-game style field trial), and which may have somewhat bypassed their Table Game Directors as a "decision," - being a slot product. It believe it was the deal that had invoked some soul-searching and consideration of deeper review, on thoroughly examining new product consideration.

In any case, new field trials for table games do get thoroughly reviewed, as the Table Games Director is also gambling to a degree, and so seeks the best EV on a new potential game for his or her own showing at a property.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Romes
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May 4th, 2015 at 2:19:29 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Paigowdan

Mike-
No, they [Station Casino Executives] do not play around at all. They want things right and correct, and they were quite thorough and meticulous during this field trial examination.



Then why did they install at least 100 Guaranteed Play machines at the Red Rock. I think the other Station casinos had plenty as well. The number of times I saw anybody playing Guaranteed Play --- Zero.

However, anybody can make a mistake.

I may have the chance to visit the GVR on Wednesday. Will Joker Poker be open in the afternoon?


I would be very interested in your thought/opinion/review of this game, Mike.
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Hunterhill
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May 4th, 2015 at 2:23:41 PM permalink
PaiGowdan, does the dealer have a minimum qualifying hand?.Also is a tie hand a push?
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Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2015 at 2:38:10 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

PaiGowdan, does the dealer have a minimum qualifying hand?.Also is a tie hand a push?


Yes, the dealer qualifies with a pair of 2's, similar to Ultimate Texas Hold 'em.
And yes, ties are a push, but they are very rare (about 0.1%), because the five card hands are longer than the comminity board.
With optimal play, Players win 50.7% of the hands, lose 49.2% of the time, and push 0.1% of the time; house edge is 0.73% of all main bets, (called the "Element of Risk" or is 2.84% of one Ante unit) and is gleaned from the qualifier and bonus bet pay table.

Strategy is pretty straightforward: Raise 3x with a complete hand (don't discard on a great complete hand because you don't need to use the community board.) Also Raise 3x holding a pair or 8's or better, or a flush draw, or an outside straight draw. Raise 1x on anything else. You may fold a ten-high hand that has no draw, but that's exceedingly rare. You almost always have a shot, even with a stop-loss 1x call bet, once the community board comes down.
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Paradigm
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May 4th, 2015 at 3:05:31 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Hasn't Pai Wow Poker been at the D, and previously Fitzgerald's, for as long as anybody can remember?


Wiz, I think that is Pai Gow Mania at The D......I assume that is a different game from Pai Wow Poker.
Paradigm
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May 4th, 2015 at 3:11:33 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I also like the fact that the player is not forced to discard when he gets dealt a great "pat" five-card hand like a flush or a full house - he can just say "I'm sticking with THIS great hand dealt, - so I don't need the community board, and you can't force me to break up a monster hand." Good feature, making the discard optional to use the community board.


This would be a rare situation, right? What does the math say on how often you are dealt a five card pat hand that wouldn't improve with two shots at a one card draw replacement. I assume that you can use one or the other of the community cards, but not both......since you only discarded one card originally, I may have that wrong.
Paradigm
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May 4th, 2015 at 3:14:40 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

This game has a worthy shot, and this is my honest opinion, - even if I hadn't know him from Adam. I wish I had though of this stuff myself. I salute him.

Take a look of the recents field trial games in public play - and support them all if worthy


Wish I was headed back out to Vegas to give it a shot.....if definitely sounds easy enough to play and will have some volatility and as you indicated, some Hail Mary turns at the end as the community board is revealed.......they definitely should do that one card at a time :-).
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2015 at 3:48:18 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Quote: Paigowdan

I also like the fact that the player is not forced to discard when he gets dealt a great "pat" five-card hand like a flush or a full house - he can just say "I'm sticking with THIS great hand dealt, - so I don't need the community board, and you can't force me to break up a monster hand." Good feature, making the discard optional to use the community board.


This would be a rare situation, right? What does the math say on how often you are dealt a five card pat hand that wouldn't improve with two shots at a one card draw replacement. I assume that you can use one or the other of the community cards, but not both......since you only discarded one card originally, I may have that wrong.


Yes, rare, about one in a hundred or so, but you will see it, as great dealt hands do happen: so the player has the right to play that "dealt Gem" without being forced to discard in order to link to the board, especially if he does not need it. This exactly like "holding all" in Video poker when you get a great initial hand: "Oh, look - a straight flush, I'm discarding nothing!" So, if you're dealt a great "pat" hand that doesn't need to be improved by the community board, then just play the hand dealt as is. This option is allowed, in order to not screw over players in these situations when they happen. Can you image if a player were dealt five of a kind or Royal and was forced to break up that hand? The "discard to use the communituy board" is optional, and is frequently and usually used, but not always.

However, if you were dealt a straight that is also four to a straight flush or Royal (Ah,Kh,Qh,Jh,10c), you can discard (or save off) the 10c to win on the Wild-5 side bet (as two pairs or better automatically wins the side bet on your first five cards dealt), as the discard is saved off for the side bet's use. This way, you can still try for the Royal or straight flush in the main game against the dealer, or even improve to "just a flush" with the community board, to try to win big on the Blind or "Bonus" bet, and gamble.
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Hunterhill
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May 4th, 2015 at 4:35:12 PM permalink
Is the bonus bet mandatory or optional?
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Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2015 at 4:38:24 PM permalink
The Wild-5 side bet is optional; it is based on your first 5 cards. Generally $1 to $25.

The main bets are required: ANTE =Bonus (Blind) bet, and the PLAY bet is required, bet 1x or 3x, else fold with a very poor hand. $5 to $100.
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RoyalBJ
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May 4th, 2015 at 7:59:14 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

The Wild-5 side bet is optional; it is based on your first 5 cards. Generally $1 to $25.

The main bets are required: ANTE =Bonus (Blind) bet, and the PLAY bet is required, bet 1x or 3x, else fold with a very poor hand. $5 to $100.




Dan,

Is Dr. Lwin a medical doctor? I understand there are sevetal PhDs involved in game design: Dr. Jocobson (a math professor) Dr. Merrell (a practicing psychiatrist) and Dr. Hong (an electrical engineer). We all call them by their first names. I assume Dr. Lwin is a surgeon or something, so you call him Dr., respectifully. Am I right? Best wishes.
Paradigm
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May 4th, 2015 at 8:15:44 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

However, if you were dealt a straight that is also four to a straight flush or Royal (Ah,Kh,Qh,Jh,10c), you can discard (or save off) the 10c to win on the Wild-5 side bet (as two pairs or better automatically wins the side bet on your first five cards dealt), as the discard is saved off for the side bet's use.


I haven't seen the procedure for saving the discard for use in reconciling the side bet, but this seems "sticky" procedurally.

Is the discard tucked under the side bet? Does the dealer then compare the player's four card hand with the community board to settle the main wager (vs. their dealer hand) and subsequently turns over the tucked "discard" to see if the player hit the bonus pay table? It could be smooth and no big deal, but like I said, when I read the description, it may not pass the "elegant" test that I was previously introduced to by a bright mind out there :-).
DJTeddyBear
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May 4th, 2015 at 8:16:57 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

I assume that you can use one or the other of the community cards, but not both......since you only discarded one card originally, I may have that wrong.


The way I read it is, if you discard, then you CAN use both. But if you don't, then you can't use either.

Dan, can you confirm?
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Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2015 at 8:52:07 PM permalink
Quote: RoyalBJ

Dan,

Is Dr. Lwin a medical doctor? I understand there are sevetal PhDs involved in game design: Dr. Jocobson (a math professor) Dr. Merrell (a practicing psychiatrist) and Dr. Hong (an electrical engineer). We all call them by their first names. I assume Dr. Lwin is a surgeon or something, so you call him Dr., respectifully. Am I right? Best wishes.


Yes, Al is a retired anesthesiologist, and an esteemed one from Chicago. He was the anesthesiologist that the surgeons insisted upon for big surgeries. A long medical career. I would say that for Al, outside of the O.R., poker was serious pastime. A smart, educated man who plays.

Quote: DJTeddybear

The way I read it is, if you discard, then you CAN use both [community board cards]. But if you don't, then you can't use either.


Yup, exactly. If you get a complete hand (a flush, straight, full house, Royal, etc.) then you don't break it up if you don't want to, and you wouldn't need the community board, as you're good.
If you get less, (two pairs, trips, one pair, a flush draw, etc.) then you'd have a weak or an off-draw card in the hand that you could discard, to use the board to improve you hand.
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Wizard
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May 4th, 2015 at 9:25:36 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Wiz, I think that is Pai Gow Mania at The D......I assume that is a different game from Pai Wow Poker.



Thanks for the correction.
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MathExtremist
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May 4th, 2015 at 9:37:27 PM permalink
How does the dealer play? What's the house way, etc?
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Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2015 at 9:47:34 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

How does the dealer play? What's the house way, etc?



Dealer's play is the same as the players' play: to set your hand by discarding one card to use the community board, or by playing a five-card hand alone, all before seeing the board to make this decision.
The full official house way is this:

After the player's set their hands (play four with the board or use five in the hand), the dealer then reveals his five-card hand, and sets the hand according to the following house way:
a) If the dealer has a straight, a flush, a full house, a straight flush, a royal flush, or a five of a kind, they will stand on their hand; the dealer's hand will NOT use the community board.
b) If the dealer has two pair, a three of a kind, or a four of a kind, they will discard the lowest card, and the dealer's hand will use the community cards.
c) If the dealer has a four-card flush or four cards to an outside straight, they will keep the draw cards, and discard the remaining off-draw card, to use the community cards. If the dealer has both a flush draw and an outside straight draw, the dealer keeps the flush draw.
d) Otherwise, if the dealer has one pair or no pair, the dealer will discard the lowest singleton card that is not a part of a pair, to use the community cards.

If the dealer's final playing hand has a less than a pair, the player's ANTE bets are not in action.

Now...The player has a slight hand-play advantage over the dealer in that the player is not constrained by a simple house way. For example, if the player has Jh-7h-6c-5h-joker, the straight draw actually has 16 - sixteen outs - four each of 9's, 8's, 4's and 3's to make the straight, but 10 outs to make the flush, as the joker can form "Super-draws" for straights; of course the sharp player will play for the straight with this hand. But the house has to ignore the joker's role in providing super-draws for straights, and just try for the flush with a simple house way.

Also, the dealer must try a draw even if breaking up a good pair, as in the hand J-J-10-9-8. If the dealer misses the draw in two community cards and ends up with a jack-high hand, he'll pays out to a full table; if he gets a pair, then his hand won't be particularly strong, and these are likely outcomes. The player, however, can play a pair of Jacks which is strong, and try for trip Jacks or two pairs with the board, and will still make the straight with two of a King, Queen, 8, or Joker: K-Q-J-10-9/Q-J-10-9-8. So the player has the option of improving his hand while retaining a strong hand as a strategy play option that the dealer doesn't have.

If Dr. Lwin ("Al") had supplied a tougher house way, he could have reduced the dealer's qualifier to AK or AQ instead of a pair of 2's or better, which really isn't much at all, but would have had a house way that:
1. Is tougher to train the dealers on;
2. Would have slowed down the game;
3. Would have caused player disputes, saying "I think that that's not what the house way says - Dealer, you set your hand wrong - Floor!" ....We see this on Pai Gow Poker all the time.
4. Players would have felt the house was taking shots at them when against an excessively sharp and detailed house way.
5. Al was looking at it in terms that "a good game has to play well for the player, and not take shots at them. If I don't like it as a player, then the players won't like it as players, and won't play it."

This new game-play aspect I think is good. Note that all other casino poker games allow the dealer to declare what plays in his hand after seeing and retaining all cards.
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DJTeddyBear
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May 5th, 2015 at 5:11:14 AM permalink
Lemme see if I read that right.

If the dealer has J-J-10-9-8, he will discard a Jack but still qualify regarding the ante bet, even if he ends up with nothing?

If so, that's a great rule.


Also, if he has J-J-10-9-Joker, does he discard the Jack or Nine? What about J-J-10-8-Joker?
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Hunterhill
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May 5th, 2015 at 7:24:27 AM permalink
In section d of the house way it states "the dealer will discard the lowest singleton that is not a part of a pair" .In section B it states "if The dealer has two pair, three of a kind, or four of a kind they will discard the lowest card ". Shouldn't section B also say" they will discard the lowest card that is not part of two pair, trips,or 4of a kind "?
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Paigowdan
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May 5th, 2015 at 9:55:03 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Lemme see if I read that right.

If the dealer has J-J-10-9-8, he will discard a Jack but still qualify regarding the ante bet, even if he ends up with nothing?

If so, that's a great rule.


No, if the dealer discards a card, it is gone, and he plays his remaining hand with the community board. If the dealer ends up with a pair or better with his final hand, he qualifies. If he ends up with less than a pair in his final hand, he doesn't qualify. Only the player gets to keep the discard to win the side bet on his first five cards dealt.

As for the hand J-J-10-9-joker or J-J-10-8-joker, the dealer would have three-of-a-kind Jacks, having the wild joker. The dealer would play the trips discarding the lowest card, according to the house way. This is because the dealer tries for a straight draw only when holding a pair or high cards.

The house way is below, and is considered in four steps, in sequence:

a) If the dealer has a straight, a flush, a full house, a straight flush, a royal flush, or a five of a kind, they will stand on their hand; the dealer's hand will NOT use the community board.
b) If the dealer has two pair, a three of a kind, or a four of a kind, they will discard the lowest card, and the dealer's hand will use the community cards.
c) If the dealer has a four-card flush or four cards to an outside straight, they will keep the draw cards, and discard the remaining off-draw card, [even if part of one pair], to use the community cards. If the dealer has both a flush draw and an outside straight draw, the dealer keeps the flush draw.
d) Otherwise, if the dealer has one pair or no pair, the dealer will discard the lowest singleton card that is not a part of a pair, to use the community cards.

It's really a straightforward house way.
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Paigowdan
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May 5th, 2015 at 10:12:21 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

In section d of the house way it states "the dealer will discard the lowest singleton that is not a part of a pair" .In section B it states "if The dealer has two pair, three of a kind, or four of a kind they will discard the lowest card ". Shouldn't section B also say" they will discard the lowest card that is not part of two pair, trips,or 4of a kind "?



It isn't necessary; the dealers know to keep the poker elements and to discard the unpaired "off" card. If you discarded a part of pair, or part of a three of a kind, you'd no longer have that poker element, - because you'd break it up. The only exception is to keep a flush draw or straight draw even if it breaks up ONE pair.

When there is two pairs, a three of a kind, or a four of a kind, the hand will always contain an unpaired singleton card to be discarded:
With Q-Q-Q-A-7, dealer discard the 7.
With 3-3-2-2-9, dealer discards the 9.
With 3-3-2-2-K, dealer discards the King.
With 7-7-7-joker-2, the 2 is discarded, as the off-card from the four of a kind 7's. So, the 2 won't be kept, because it is not a part of the four of a kind 7's.
This hand is NOT a full house as that is a lower hand; only the best hand present is "your hand." Since this hand is a four of a kind, it is considered by (b), and so has an off card from that four of a kind to be discarded. Same with 7-7-7-joker-A, the ace is discarded because the quad 7's is already higher than the full house. Might get the five-of-a-kind 7's, gotta go for it.
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Hunterhill
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May 5th, 2015 at 10:43:37 AM permalink
I understand all that but wondered why in section d that you specified lowest singleton not part of a pair.
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MathExtremist
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May 5th, 2015 at 10:48:03 AM permalink
Yes, "lowest singleton not part of a pair" is redundant. It's not a singleton if it's part of a pair, so "lowest singleton" is sufficient.

Also, part B should actually say "discard the lowest singleton" not "discard the lowest card." With K Q 9 9 9, the lowest card is a 9, etc.
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Paradigm
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May 5th, 2015 at 11:11:11 AM permalink
Help me understand using the two card community board:

If the player discards one card he gets to use the community board. Is he restricted to a five card hand using his four cards and one of the two community cards or can he use three of the remaining four cards in his hand and both of the community cards?

For example:

1) Player has Jc, Jh, 8h, 4s, Ad
2) Player discards 4s
3) Board is As/Ac

Does the player have two pair, Aces & Jacks with an 8 kicker or does the player have a full house Aces over Jacks?

Whatever the rule above is I assume it applies to times the dealer uses the board as well.
Paigowdan
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May 5th, 2015 at 11:36:00 AM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Help me understand using the two card community board:

If the player discards one card he gets to use the community board. Is he restricted to a five card hand using his four cards and one of the two community cards or can he use three of the remaining four cards in his hand and both of the community cards?

For example:

1) Player has Jc, Jh, 8h, 4s, Ad
2) Player discards 4s
3) Board is As/Ac

Does the player have two pair, Aces & Jacks with an 8 kicker or does the player have a full house Aces over Jacks?

Whatever the rule above is I assume it applies to times the dealer uses the board as well.



The FULL board is available by just discarding one card. Everyone may play the best five card hand formed between the hand and the full board without restriction. So, the player here gets the full house.

Now, should the player get a rare monster hand (Royal, Straight Flush, natural full house), the player may elect to keep that full hand if dealt it, to play that.
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DJTeddyBear
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May 5th, 2015 at 11:36:05 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Yes, "lowest singleton not part of a pair" is redundant. It's not a singleton if it's part of a pair, so "lowest singleton" is sufficient.


Maybe because some dealers don't know the term "singleton" ?
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Paigowdan
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May 5th, 2015 at 11:50:05 AM permalink
Yup. Even the slightest fancy thing like a big word ("singleton") can be minor stumbling block for a few dealers. Dealer training is dumbed down so that all dealers can finally get it - to deal it.

We tried to keep it simple:
* if you were dealt a great hand that you want to keep, and you don't need the community board, then just play your dealt hand. If there are no "bad cards" in your hand, then keep it all and play that. A royal? Keep it. A straight flush? keep it. Natural full house? keep it. Like video poker, you may hold it all if you were dealt a monster right off the bat.

* If you need to discard a card to improve you hand by using the board, then discard the worst card and use the community board to help your hand. Trips may improve to a four of a kind. Two pair may improve to a full house. Try for that.

You choose.
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Paradigm
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May 5th, 2015 at 1:47:30 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

The FULL board is available by just discarding one card. Everyone may play the best five card hand formed between the hand and the full board without restriction. So, the player here gets the full house.

Now, should the player get a rare monster hand (Royal, Straight Flush, natural full house), the player may elect to keep that full hand if dealt it, to play that.


Thanks for that clarification, Dan!
UCivan
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May 8th, 2015 at 11:18:35 AM permalink
A new game on field trial called "Super Three Card" has just been posted by Nevada Gaming. Any information about it?

Super Three Card
Paigowdan
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May 8th, 2015 at 12:22:09 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

A new game on field trial called "Super Three Card" has just been posted by Nevada Gaming. Any information about it?

Super Three Card



That game, Super Three Card, is a multi-deck shoe version of Three Card Poker, invented by Mark Yoseloff, the former chief of Shuffle master. See Super Three Card at Big Bet Gaming.


No relation to this game Poker with a Joker.
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GWAE
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May 8th, 2015 at 1:25:11 PM permalink
This game seems interesting. I think I would give it a try. I can see the house way causing arguments. Players think the dealer should do one thing and dealer thinks another.

Also, when do you make your raise bet? Before or after you see the dealers hand?
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Paigowdan
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May 8th, 2015 at 2:51:44 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

This game seems interesting. I think I would give it a try. I can see the house way causing arguments. Players think the dealer should do one thing and dealer thinks another.

Also, when do you make your raise bet? Before or after you see the dealers hand?



On this, I disagree; I think the house way is very short and clear, way simpler than PGP with 4 steps. The game has been in brand-new field trial mode for over a week now, doing really great, and the house way has been zero problem. Now, on rare complex hands, that's always a problem with any house way game, but I think this easy house way is as best as they come, really.

You get to make your raise bet on seeing your five card hand, - which is a LOT of info - out of a seven cards to be seen! (Compare that to being forced to raise 3x/4x or check - on seeing two cards out of seven, like on UTH). That's one of the "humdingers."
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mikeabiomed
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May 8th, 2015 at 3:19:30 PM permalink
Not 100% sure but I think it was being tested at The Atlantis (40X Blackjack)
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Paigowdan
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May 8th, 2015 at 3:27:58 PM permalink
Quote: mikeabiomed

Not 100% sure but I think it was being tested at The Atlantis (40X Blackjack)



Perhaps so: I actually like Mark Yoseloff's 40x side bet, even though it may get players to risk strategy at times, which is upsetting to a BJ table. Nonetheless, there is some real aggressive play juice in that game concept.
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teliot
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May 8th, 2015 at 3:44:05 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Perhaps so: I actually like Mark Yoseloff's 40x side bet, even though it may get players to risk strategy at times, which is upsetting to a BJ table. Nonetheless, there is some real aggressive play juice in that game concept.

Yoseloff's "Flip Card Blackjack" shows absolutely no understanding of advantage play vulnerabilities. That game will be crushed.
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miplet
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May 8th, 2015 at 3:53:40 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

On this, I disagree; I think the house way is very short and clear, way simpler than PGP with 4 steps. The game has been in brand-new field trial mode for over a week now, doing really great, and the house way has been zero problem. Now, on rare complex hands, that's always a problem with any house way game, but I think this easy house way is as best as they come, really.

You get to make your raise bet on seeing your five card hand, - which is a LOT of info - out of a seven cards to be seen! (Compare that to being forced to raise 3x/4x or check - on seeing two cards out of seven, like on UTH). That's one of the "humdingers."


And way clearer house way than Texas Shootout's 14 steps.
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Paigowdan
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May 8th, 2015 at 4:08:05 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Yoseloff's "Flip Card Blackjack" shows absolutely no understanding of advantage play vulnerabilities. That game will be crushed.


Eliot, I agree.

Game protection is consistently the weakest card that the game designer shows.

Like all game designer aficionados, we all come up with hit and misses, but I think 40x is very appealing. On a high count, there may be issues. You analyze and report the deal to us.

see: Big bet gaming's offerings,
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Paigowdan
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May 8th, 2015 at 4:23:02 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

Quote: Paigowdan

On this, I disagree; I think the house way is very short and clear, way simpler than PGP with 4 steps. The game has been in brand-new field trial mode for over a week now, doing really great, and the house way has been zero problem. Now, on rare complex hands, that's always a problem with any house way game, but I think this easy house way is as best as they come, really.

You get to make your raise bet on seeing your five card hand, - which is a LOT of info - out of a seven cards to be seen! (Compare that to being forced to raise 3x/4x or check - on seeing two cards out of seven, like on UTH). That's one of the "humdingers."


And way clearer house way than Texas Shootout's 14 steps.



Thanks, miplet!
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RoyalBJ
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August 4th, 2015 at 6:41:10 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

There has been some new game intros recently here in Nevada: Pai Wow poker, 40x Blackjack, DJ Wild, Go Fore it, and Poker with a Joker at Green Valley Ranch (which is a remarkable place to obtain a Nevada Field Trial.)



How are these games doing? Are they still in the sponsoring casinos?

There is another one I read in a thread: Your Way 21.

Anyone has the updates?
Paigowdan
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August 9th, 2015 at 2:44:32 AM permalink
Quote: RoyalBJ

How are these games doing? Are they still in the sponsoring casinos?

There is another one I read in a thread: Your Way 21.

Anyone has the updates?



The Nevada Gaming Control board and the Nevada Gaming commission are to render final approvals and denials next week (week of August 17th, I believe).

Poker with a Joker is constantly busy at Green Valley Ranch Station, it is doing ridiculously well, FANTASTICALLY WELL. Jammed up all the time, just beautiful to see a new game get more action than I do not know what....

Pai Wow Poker at Palace seems to be doing acceptably well, and I will pop in tomorrow.

As for 40x BJ and Go Fore It, I will say that I do not know their current statuses....
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