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JohnnyHawaiian
JohnnyHawaiian
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November 25th, 2015 at 8:51:51 AM permalink
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6079713.PN.&OS=PN/6079713&RS=PN/6079713

Aloha here is the link to the USPTO I hope this will get you there
John R. Paz Paz Gaming Inc
mrsuit31
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November 25th, 2015 at 10:26:43 AM permalink
Any placements?
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MathExtremist
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November 25th, 2015 at 11:30:10 AM permalink
Quote: JohnnyHawaiian

I just don't understand how anybody can claim ownership of something that we own and invented and have a patent # 6,079.713

Who are you accusing of doing that?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
GWAE
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November 25th, 2015 at 1:54:00 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Who are you accusing of doing that?



sounds like we might have a fun story here.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
teliot
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November 25th, 2015 at 2:03:20 PM permalink
Here are the two games:

Racing Card Derby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfrZir5S-qA

Win, Place & Show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwqEqQIzNrc
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
Paradigm
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November 25th, 2015 at 2:38:12 PM permalink
Overall, I am not a huge fan of the game concept because it is too foreign of a concept and like someone once told me, foreign/alien concepts are very difficult. The question is if enough players will get any "juice" from betting on which suits will come out first and if that excitement will last for them over multiple visits to the casino.

From a mechanics standpoint, I like portions of both games.

I like the betting options as well as the use of the two Jokers for the house edge in Win, Place & Show. I believe Racing Card Derby uses the 2 of Spades as the house edge mechanism which I screws up the odds for Spades vs. the other "horses". I could be remembering that incorrectly.

But, I much prefer the optical reader and the single card selection for the 2nd and 3rd place "horses" in RCD. Even if the optical reader did need a 2nd take on at least one card in the video. How does one back up a dealer mistake if they lay a card on the wrong suit initially in WPS?
Zcore13
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November 25th, 2015 at 4:10:53 PM permalink
I read the patent and am familiar with both games. I think Paz Gaming is in a world of hurt if this goes to trial or arbitration.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
UCivan
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November 25th, 2015 at 4:19:45 PM permalink
Is either game making money now? If no one is making money, it's not worth arguing now. Just stay put till someone hit big.
MathExtremist
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November 26th, 2015 at 8:54:11 AM permalink
His attorneys filed a lawsuit yesterday:

https://search.rpxcorp.com/lit/cacdce-634412-paz-gaming-v-racing-card-derby-holdings
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paradigm
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November 26th, 2015 at 9:16:23 AM permalink
Are there any installations of either game live at any US casinos? International casinos? The argument on "damages" should be an interesting one.
teliot
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November 26th, 2015 at 9:17:27 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

His attorneys filed a lawsuit yesterday:

https://search.rpxcorp.com/lit/cacdce-634412-paz-gaming-v-racing-card-derby-holdings

Happy Thanksgiving lawsuit.

WPS must really think that RCD made some big $$$, otherwise what can the damages possibly be?
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
UCivan
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November 26th, 2015 at 9:22:04 AM permalink
We have one really upsetting inventor; it is definitely not for the money. I saw one blackjack-variant game, one table, in CA using 22 push feature. SWITCH was informed, but I think he let go of it just because it's not a threat.
teliot
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November 26th, 2015 at 9:27:33 AM permalink
Quote: UCivan

We have one really upsetting inventor; it is definitely not for the money. I saw one blackjack-variant game, one table, in CA using 22 push feature. SWITCH was informed, but I think he let go of it just because it's not a threat.

I asked Roger Snow once about SHFL suing independent table game inventors over patent infringements. As I recall, he said that it wasn't worth considering until the game had a non-trivial number of placements and some longevity.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
DJTeddyBear
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November 26th, 2015 at 11:13:53 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

I asked Roger Snow once about SHFL suing independent table game inventors over patent infringements. As I recall, he said that it wasn't worth considering until the game had a non-trivial number of placements and some longevity.

Interesting. But wouldn't that later be considered "failure to protect the patent"?

I mean, I would think that it's one thing to be unaware of a potential infringement, but entirely different thing to be aware and do nothing about it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
GWAE
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November 26th, 2015 at 11:17:03 AM permalink
I know nothing about patents but I thought I have heard before that you have to defend your patent if you find someone is infringing on it. If you dont defend it then that is like giving permission to use it.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
mrsuit31
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November 27th, 2015 at 7:14:45 AM permalink
Seemingly he filed for willful infringement, meaning he's going for punative damages. I couldn't see much else on my phone...
.
Dicenor33
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November 27th, 2015 at 7:44:53 AM permalink
No AP is possible. Doubt it will attract anyone's attention.
teliot
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November 27th, 2015 at 7:48:33 AM permalink
Quote: Dicenor33

No AP is possible. Doubt it will attract anyone's attention.

What would happen if some random casino dealt RCD or WPS from an eight-deck shoe?
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
Dicenor33
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November 27th, 2015 at 8:03:32 AM permalink
This type of game belongs to "Arcade". Freaking Pokemon and pinballs instead of horses. Ahigh should jump from joy, isn't it what he dreamed about?
Paradigm
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November 27th, 2015 at 10:07:05 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

What would happen if some random casino dealt RCD or WPS from an eight-deck shoe?


I believe a casino did this with RCD back in 2013 (post the game coming in 2nd at Raving TG Conf in late 2012). I had heard that they had some AP losses...it didn't last long on their floor.
777
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December 2nd, 2015 at 8:42:05 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

I asked Roger Snow once about SHFL suing independent table game inventors over patent infringements. As I recall, he said that it wasn't worth considering until the game had a non-trivial number of placements and some longevity.




I see prior art in "push 22" and I personally don't think SHFL and its inventor have strong case in defending the "push 22" claim.

Assuming a lease rate of $300 per license x 2 licenses x 5% to 20% royalty rate (no punitive damage), the potential recovered damage is much less than the legal fees and court costs. And there is a thing call principle, and large and well finance entity often threaten the accused infringer with a cease and desist letter, but in this instance the economic factor wins over the principle factor ????
777
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December 2nd, 2015 at 8:52:28 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

I know nothing about patents but I thought I have heard before that you have to defend your patent if you find someone is infringing on it. If you dont defend it then that is like giving permission to use it.




If you are aware of a infringement on your patent and ignore to take action, then you effectively forfeit your right to collect the damage during the period of infringement that you are aware of. For example, you first learn of the infringement on 1/12/2015 and did nothing and wait until 1/12/2025 to notify the infringer to take legal action, then you loose the right to collect the damage/royalty during those 10 years of infringement.
777
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December 2nd, 2015 at 8:56:24 AM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Are there any installations of either game live at any US casinos? International casinos? The argument on "damages" should be an interesting one.



Perhaps the damage is miniscule plus court costs and attorney fees. But at stake is the principle of defending one's patent.
MathExtremist
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December 2nd, 2015 at 11:29:43 AM permalink
Quote: 777

If you are aware of a infringement on your patent and ignore to take action, then you effectively forfeit your right to collect the damage during the period of infringement that you are aware of. For example, you first learn of the infringement on 1/12/2015 and did nothing and wait until 1/12/2025 to notify the infringer to take legal action, then you loose the right to collect the damage/royalty during those 10 years of infringement.

Not only is that wrong (laches and detremental reliance are not givens), but your example doesn't even make sense. You can't collect more than 6 years of back patent damages in any event. See 35 USC 286.

The moral of the story: don't take legal advice from strangers on the Internet. Especially where hundreds of thousands in costs are involved.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Zcore13
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December 2nd, 2015 at 11:52:39 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Not only is that wrong (laches and detremental reliance are not givens), but your example doesn't even make sense. You can't collect more than 6 years of back patent damages in any event. See 35 USC 286.

The moral of the story: don't take legal advice from strangers on the Internet. Especially where hundreds of thousands in costs are involved.



I agree. That was a ridiculous statement. You do not necesarly lose the right to collect damages based on time spent deciding if you are going to pursue legal action.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
777
777
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December 2nd, 2015 at 12:06:05 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Not only is that wrong (laches and detremental reliance are not givens), but your example doesn't even make sense. You can't collect more than 6 years of back patent damages in any event. See 35 USC 286.

The moral of the story: don't take legal advice from strangers on the Internet. Especially where hundreds of thousands in costs are involved.




Good point about the advice on the info on the internet.

I wasn’t giving LEGAL ADVICE. My posting is intent for all to contribute and dissect. Just as my 1 viewpoint about the “push 22” and then followed by 10000 more of diametric viewpoints on the “push 22.” These discussions are not to be taken as legal advice.

The Doctrine of Laches can be very complicated and only real professional can give legal advice.

http://patentlyo.com/patent/2015/09/maintains-defense-damages.html

I think my exaggeration on 10-year laches status limitation is in the same order as the 10000 consecutive of whatever event, and the exaggeration are for discussion/debate purposes.
777
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December 2nd, 2015 at 12:33:23 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I agree. That was a ridiculous statement. You do not necesarly lose the right to collect damages based on time spent deciding if you are going to pursue legal action.


ZCore13



The 10-years status limitation I used is not a good one, and your comment is a clear indication of your COMPLETE lack of understanding about the doctrine of laches. This is not my legal advice to you, but I encourage to take some time to understand more about the doctrine of laches. And if you want to enhance your knowledge further, a good reading for you is the recent SCOTUS' decision on Petrella v. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc.
MathExtremist
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December 2nd, 2015 at 12:34:36 PM permalink
Quote: 777

Good point about the advice on the info on the internet.

I wasn’t giving LEGAL ADVICE. My posting is intent for all to contribute and dissect. Just as my 1 viewpoint about the “push 22” and then followed by 10000 more of diametric viewpoints on the “push 22.” These discussions are not to be taken as legal advice.

The Doctrine of Laches can be very complicated and only real professional can give legal advice.

http://patentlyo.com/patent/2015/09/maintains-defense-damages.html

I think my exaggeration on 10-year laches status limitation is in the same order as the 10000 consecutive of whatever event, and the exaggeration are for discussion/debate purposes.

It's bad form to accuse someone else of having an invalid patent, or make utterly wrong proclamations about legal interpretation, and then turn around and say "just kidding, I was exaggerating." It's not an exaggeration, it's false. If you want to have a discussion of patent law, at least make it intellectually honest.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
muleyvoice
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December 2nd, 2015 at 12:35:41 PM permalink
Free advice is worth the price.
777
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December 2nd, 2015 at 12:38:31 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

It's bad form to accuse someone else of having an invalid patent, or make utterly wrong proclamations about legal interpretation, and then turn around and say "just kidding, I was exaggerating." It's not an exaggeration, it's false. If you want to have a discussion of patent law, at least make it intellectually honest.




No, I wasn't kidding. I was comparing the exaggeration of the 10-year limitation and 10000 consecutive of whatever event.
MathExtremist
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December 2nd, 2015 at 12:39:12 PM permalink
Quote: 777

The 10-years status limitation I used is not a good one, and your comment is a clear indication of your COMPLETE lack of understanding about the doctrine of laches. This is not my legal advice to you, but I encourage to take some time to understand more about the doctrine of laches. And if you want to enhance your knowledge further, a good reading for you is the recent SCOTUS' decision on Petrella v. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc.

My gosh, do you not even read your own cites? You just linked to the PatentlyO discussion of patent laches in SCA, which says
Quote: PatentlyO

On en banc rehearing, the Federal Circuit has ruled that the Supreme Court’s Petrella decision (eliminating the doctrine of laches for back-damages for copyright infringement) does not directly apply in the patent context.

And now you're pointing directly to Petrella as being applicable? It's always fun when attorneys cite cases that directly refute their arguments, especially when they don't even realize it.

Nothing Zcore13 said was wrong. You *don't* necessarily lose any rights if you wait to file an IP suit. You may, if laches or some other defense is found, but that's not a given.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
777
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December 2nd, 2015 at 12:41:04 PM permalink
Quote: muleyvoice

Free advice is worth the price.




It is the fact that everyone comes here or any other internet sources for "free advice," but not all take the free advice at face value.
777
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December 2nd, 2015 at 1:17:45 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

My gosh, do you not even read your own cites? You just linked to the PatentlyO discussion of patent laches in SCA, which says

Quote: PatentlyO

On en banc rehearing, the Federal Circuit has ruled that the Supreme Court’s Petrella decision (eliminating the doctrine of laches for back-damages for copyright infringement) does not directly apply in the patent context.

And now you're pointing directly to Petrella as being applicable? It's always fun when attorneys cite cases that directly refute their arguments, especially when they don't even realize it.

Nothing Zcore13 said was wrong. You *don't* necessarily lose any rights if you wait to file an IP suit. You may, if laches or some other defense is found, but that's not a given.





I did not state that Petrella is applicable. Petrella was mention to give Zcore10000 specifically (and perhaps others) a broader understanding of laches.

I did NOT state that you lose your right for waiting to file lawsuit. My statement was in the context of KNOWING the current violation INTENTIONALLY not taking timely action (the fictitious example I used is for the 10 years loss of compensation). That the doctrine of laches was established as a remedy to such abuse, and I don't think anyone here is qualified to give a legal assessment about the consequent in the context which I replied to. Even though no one has the legal expertise, but we all can still provide comments based on our limited knowledge and common sense.


Edited to add original context that created the subsequent laches discussion:

My original reply to telliot is based on this context:

Quote from telliot:
"asked Roger Snow once about SHFL suing independent table game inventors over patent infringements. As I recall, he said that it wasn't worth considering until the game had a non-trivial number of placements and some longevity."
MathExtremist
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December 2nd, 2015 at 7:49:25 PM permalink
Back on topic, it looks like Mr. Zink forgot a few things:
"NOTICE OF DEFICIENCIES in Attorney Case Opening RE: Complaint (Attorney Civil Case Opening) 1 F . The following error(s) was found: No Notice of Interested Parties has been filed. A Notice of Interested Parties must be filed with every partys first appearance. See Local Rule 7.1-1. Counsel must file a Notice of Interested Parties immediately. Failure to do so may be addressed by judicial action, including sanctions."

https://search.rpxcorp.com/lit/cacdce-634412-paz-gaming-v-racing-card-derby-holdings
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
charliepatrick
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December 3rd, 2015 at 12:21:17 PM permalink
fwiw I saw the RCD game at a Coventry Showcase a few years ago and remember it had a terrible House Edge. Apparently they did try it for a while but it's no longer there. So while the game may be similar there's little, if any, money being made by it in the UK.

I also remember someone saying that Three Card Poker (or was it another game) coming out of the 10-year something - but don't know what the exact legal situation is.
777
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December 3rd, 2015 at 12:38:32 PM permalink
Quote: muleyvoice

Free advice is worth the price.



I believe board is helpful in providing info about Vegas, AP, DI, gambling and other technical issues such as legal, patent, math and game designs. With that being said, let me pose you this question with regarding to your comment about free advice (this question is somewhat off topic, but since your well heeded advice of "free advice is worth the price" is within this thread, it is best to pose the following question to you here instead of creating a new thread/topic).

Many thanks to the contributions of many WoV members, I was able to read many fantastic game & math discussions (one example on top of my head is the memorable 10,000 consecutive of whatever event theory by MadExtremist). Of these, one common topic I noticed is the strategy for various dice and card games. Considering the potential large bet or bankroll by some members here and the absence of the strategies certified by GLI or other approved gaming agencies, how would you put the confidence on various strategies provided on this WoV board?
muleyvoice
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December 3rd, 2015 at 1:25:06 PM permalink
Lots of good advice on strategy, especially on WOO site. Now as to dice influence, well there are none so blind as those who will not see. Only person I know of who put his money where his mouth is was Tupp. $100 on a challenge conducted on Ahigh's table.
Buzzard won, but told Ahigh spend the $100 on his kids. Ahigh is the research expert on field trial. SooPoo set the bet guidelines and a good time was had by all.
waasnoday
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December 3rd, 2015 at 2:06:38 PM permalink
Quote: 777

I believe board is helpful in providing info about Vegas, AP, DI, gambling and other technical issues such as legal, patent, math and game designs. With that being said, let me pose you this question with regarding to your comment about free advice (this question is somewhat off topic, but since your well heeded advice of "free advice is worth the price" is within this thread, it is best to pose the following question to you here instead of creating a new thread/topic).

Many thanks to the contributions of many WoV members, I was able to read many fantastic game & math discussions (one example on top of my head is the memorable 10,000 consecutive of whatever event theory by MadExtremist). Of these, one common topic I noticed is the strategy for various dice and card games. Considering the potential large bet or bankroll by some members here and the absence of the strategies certified by GLI or other approved gaming agencies, how would you put the confidence on various strategies provided on this WoV board?



GLI nor any other gaming agency on the casino side of things (including regulatory) ,that I am aware of, certify any strategy nor would they as that is not within their realm of operation. GLI basically certifies that a game will perform as described and follows whatever strictures are in place for the relevant regulatory structure. As far as the math and strategies detailed on the WoO website, I can state that casino staff do visit that site because of the accuracy of the math and strategies. Not sure if this has answered the question or not but hope it helps a bit.
MathExtremist
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December 3rd, 2015 at 2:50:26 PM permalink
Quote: 777

Many thanks to the contributions of many WoV members, I was able to read many fantastic game & math discussions (one example on top of my head is the memorable 10,000 consecutive of whatever event theory by MadExtremist). Of these, one common topic I noticed is the strategy for various dice and card games. Considering the potential large bet or bankroll by some members here and the absence of the strategies certified by GLI or other approved gaming agencies, how would you put the confidence on various strategies provided on this WoV board?

I'm pretty sure you're referring to me, and if that was intended to be an insult rather than a typo it wasn't a very clever one. In any event, I don't recall the "memorable 10,000 consecutive of whatever event" discussion so it couldn't have been all that memorable. Did I once say that 10,000 losses in a row could happen? Because that's true. Not very likely, but still true.

To your question, betting strategies don't change the house edge and would never be certified by GLI. Playing strategies, on the other hand, are checked by tech services labs in the context of calculating the optimal-play RTP of a game. What GLI or other labs do not check are suboptimal but concise strategies, at least not unless you ask them to; they'll be happy to take your money and do the work. For example, I just submitted a tiles game through BMM and had them verify that my math was correct for both the optimal (but complicated) strategy as well as the one-line house way strategy. If the game ever gets into the market and doesn't bomb, I'd expect there would be a thread on a near-optimal but player-friendly playing strategy right here at WoV, just as there was for the game Dan just installed at GVR. Based on the high level of competence demonstrated by the members here who tend to be involved in such discussions, I would place a very high level of confidence in whatever came out of that discussion. It's easy enough to check, too. When someone says "the house edge on new game such-and-such is X% if played with strategy S" that's independently verifiable and/or easily refuted. That's why the end product of such discussions tends to yield correct results: many eyeballs on the same problem.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
JohnnyHawaiian
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May 11th, 2016 at 12:37:22 AM permalink
So the serving of RACING CARD DERBY and TONY BROWN has been a difficult task you would think that this man claimed we stole his game and so we filed on him and now hes nowhere to be found come on be a man and let's have our day in court
John R. Paz Paz Gaming Inc
Paradigm
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May 11th, 2016 at 9:43:47 AM permalink
Installs Installs...do either of you have any games currently on floors in casinos? This game has been around for evidently quite a while...I know of one RCD install post the Raving TG Conference in late 2012. It was pulled from the property in 90 days...without a game that is proving itself on a floor somewhere of either your or RCD's versions, I am trying to calculate damages for infringement and coming up with a pretty small number...like $0. Please tell me there are 20+ tables of this concept generating $10K - $15K per month for RCD or your firm and there is some brand dilution or some other form of monetary damage being perpetrated on the patent holder...otherwise I wish you good luck in the damages portion of the case.
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