New Game—Craps: Football Variation

Quote: DRich

Craps and Blackjack are in the public domain so they are free to be used by anyone.

On a side note:

When does Three Card Poker lose its patent protection? It must be soon.

So, are the different public domain bets of casino craps (not all the new patented side bets)
able to be included as part of a new dice game similar to casino craps ?

Or, would a "102" prior art or a " 103" obviousness rejection make the motified craps game unpatentable ?

You can use public domain prior art to build on, and add a proprietary mechanism to it or on top. Fire bet, All Tall/All small are added to the public game of craps. Freebet and switch build upon and improve public domain Blackjack.

You can't use someone else's proprietary (non-public) art as a basis for a new game.

Quote: Paigowdan

You can use public domain prior art to build on, and add a proprietary mechanism to it or on top. Fire bet, All Tall/All small are added to the public game of craps. Freebet and switch build upon and improve public domain Blackjack.

You can't use someone else's proprietary (non-public) art as a basis for a new game.

OK ...

So, is it more difficult for a new game that uses some of the public domain prior art,
with modifications (which means new rules - like this one)

vs

just a side bet add-on:

a) to get through the patent process
b) be accepted by the public
c) be accepted by dealers
d) make it onto a casino floor

Quote: NewToCraps

OK ...

So, is it more difficult for a new game that uses some of the public domain prior art,
with modifications (which means new rules - like this one)

vs

just a side bet add-on:

a) to get through the patent process
b) be accepted by the public
c) be accepted by dealers
d) make it onto a casino floor

Before I touch upon a)...d), let me say that a good game idea is simply that - a good idea that works really well in the real world; doesn't matter if it is technically a good side bet - or a good and extensive change to a base game. Totally new game mechanisms often get pushback and rejection, as too alien to get. Freebet and Switch are great new base-game features that extensively add and improve the game, and there are a slew of side bets that don't really add...it matters if the game concept is sensible, fun, and straightforward. If it uses some public domain art, it's clear to use those portions as non-proprietary. If it is 100% public domain art, it cannot be patented or protected. Research it at WOO's games repository and the uspto, and with a lawyer, if needed.

a) What determines the patent process is really your attorney's competency and experience as it relates to game knowledge, and ability to describe and define your game invention. A crap attorney can screw up the simplest of side bets, and a great attorney can successfully patent, keep track of its patent office progress, and protect a full-blown game properly. Lawyers are like doctors who actually safeguard your life and health; you want a damn competent and attentive one to protect your game, whether it's a side bet or a main game. The two big go-to guys in the game patent area are Rich Newman and Jon Muskin. The "Lennon and McCartney" of this area.

b) Acceptance by the public boils down to "how much fun and fair" the game comes off, in terms of its Gambling Juice appeal - for lack of a better description. This is the difference between the "Wow!" factor and "Meh/Yeuch" factor. Assuming you have the math and patent down pat correctly, your game has to be catchy, snappy, and ELEGANT. It has to improve the base game, or can be a new game, that people can 1) jump right onto without needing a textbook to "get" the game; 2) Neither dump or burn out the player, but give them a fair shot; 3) be easy to deal and to supervise/survey.

And Switch here at this board gives fine examples with his games, along with 21+3 as examples:
- Free bet Blackjack: "Your splits and doubles are TOTALLY FREE, though you push on a dealer's 22. This is a good and fun and fair trade off."
- BJ Switch - "Play two hands, and if you can improve one or BOTH hands by switching cards between them, go right ahead!"
- 21+3 - "if you two card hand plus dealer's up card is a winning Three Card Poker Pair-Plus hand - you win!"

All of these games can be explained in a moment's notice with the new-to-it player getting it right off the bat, and are fun to play.

c) To be accepted by dealers: Well, if the game is fun and simple to the player, it should simultaneously be fun and simple for the dealer, and usually is. Dealer training is critical in winning their acceptance, so prep your dealer training speech or demo to be short and easy, getting to the point. There should be no complex or unanswered areas in your teaching speech and demo. Also, it helps if your side bet or game allows for or makes for a good dealer toke bet. Dealers and gamblers have a natural head start in this area.

d) making it onto the dealer floor is very tough without a distributor's backing, as they have the sales force and leads already in place. But many independent games get into casinos by a good sales pitch, courteous requests to Table Game Managers to see the game, professional appearance, and prepared documentation for a field trial or game variation. Every state or area gaming control board has a documented and posted submission process, (here is Nevada's New Game Evaluation Procedure). To go the distributor's route, contact Bally, DEQ, or Galaxy Gaming in the U.S. - each site as a "contact" or submission process.

we can join forces!

i don't get it. you said the 1st down bet always wins every 4th roll unless the person rolls a 7 or a turnover.
so if he rolls a 7 or a turnover, then he loses?
i'm confused

And there my friend is your average craps player !

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i see
so the 1st down bet is like a modified four rolls no seven?
and the scrimmage line is like a modified pass line?
and the defense bet is like a modified don't pass bet?

fair enough
I guess it isnt as complicated as it looks at first glance

not sure if i'd play but there could be a niche for a good game with a sports theme
good luck!

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Quote: vegas702

If a TD is scored, then the very next roll is the Extra Point roll to determine the payout on the Scrimmage Line (this roll is a freeroll since the SL, FDB, and SB cannot lose)

If the shooter rolls a 7 on the EP roll, then players get paid 7-5 on the Scrimmage Line (if a 7 is not rolled, players still get paid 1-1 on SL)

This may work well for those that enjoy American Football, or maybe not

I think this would also work well as an electronic game too.
How about a basic game to play and try out?

OK, OK, OK
I really do not think a casino would like having a bet win on a roll
and NOT pay it off right there.
Now all the winners have to wait for the next roll to see how much they win.

Oh, I can see the cheaters out in force on this one.

I mean, it happens right now when the pass line wins and players are trying to pick up their bets before the dealer has paid them.
I have done this and got scolded.

winning bets should be be paid right away or be way away from the players, as place bets are
I still have seen players reach for their place bets too and the dealer did not even correct them.

I give two thumbs down for actual table game but 2 thumbs up for electronic game version (like shoot to win craps)
maybe you should find a few craps dealers and see how they would enjoy dealing this game
have fun no matter what happens
Sally

I see
sounds easy enough I guess
If that's the case I don't know why people keep saying it's so complicated
the pass line & four rolls no seven are super easy bets to learn

must be a bunch of lazy people out there who are too lazt to read about you're game
plenty of lazy people on the internet lol

anyway good luck

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Quote: vegas702

To crapsdude: I don't know why people keep saying it's complicated, either. That's the part that baffles me.

The only bets players really need to be concerned about are the first two bets — Scrimmage Line Bet & the First Down Bet.

And if they understand how the Don't Pass works and how Four Rolls no Seven works in regular craps, then I don't understand what they find so "complicated" about the game. Maybe they don't know regular craps? I don't know

np
best of luck with you're game

" I don't know " On this I agree !

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