What is the future of table gaming? (Split from Lucky Stiff Opening)
Wondering how much space Roger will have. I predict a lot less and less eye candy. Raving has not yet got a firm commitment from Galaxy. Not saying they won't offer a prize again, just they have not committed yet. Are e tables ever gonna gain a real foothold in casinos ?
Quote: BuzzardI should start a new thread but I am too lazy. What is the future of table game exhibits at G2E . Bally had 12,000 square feet last year. This year they will have 13,800.
Wondering how much space Roger will have. I predict a lot less and less eye candy. Raving has not yet got a firm commitment from Galaxy. Not saying they won't offer a prize again, just they have not committed yet. Are e tables ever gonna gain a real foothold in casinos ?
The industry trend, according to Geoff Freeman and (can't think of his name) the CEO of the Golden Nugget, is towards table games, because that's what the youngest demographic wants. Slots square footage is receding over the last 5 years, and casino players don't want a single-player slots experience; they want a more social experience, and they want some skill in their gaming. Slots are considered the primary activity for age 60+; younger than that, it trends more and more to tables. Good news for us both, Buzz.
Take a look at Casino Journal from June 2014, with a very detailed discussion of this. It was the keynote topic at Southern Gaming Seminar in May.
Quote: beachbumbabsThe industry trend, according to Geoff Freeman and (can't think of his name) the CEO of the Golden Nugget, is towards table games, because that's what the youngest demographic wants. Slots square footage is receding over the last 5 years, and casino players don't want a single-player slots experience; they want a more social experience, and they want some skill in their gaming. Slots are considered the primary activity for age 60+; younger than that, it trends more and more to tables. Good news for us both, Buzz.
Take a look at Casino Journal from June 2014, with a very detailed discussion of this. It was the keynote topic at Southern Gaming Seminar in May.
Wow, I had no idea this reversal had taken place! Very exciting if true, as I much prefer table games to machines.
Let,s see how much space Roger gets at G2E this year. Later I will like the news release about bally and G2E . Reading it you would not know bally even had table games.
Quote: BuzzardI beg to differ . The new players are addicted to the digital world. IPods, tablets, etc. I have seen empty roulette tables and a few feet away a crowded electronic roulette table. With young players sharing bets. And bubble craps is gaining traction. The smaller casinos in Blackhawk have a craps table and a roulette table as loss leaders. That can not go on forever. Labor keeps going up on table games.
Let,s see how much space Roger gets at G2E this year. Later I will like the news release about bally and G2E . Reading it you would not know bally even had table games.
Re: press releases. I noticed that as well. lol... I think a lot of what you're seeing about electronic craps and roulette goes to 3 things. Primarily, significantly lower minimums. Also, there's an intimidation factor to live tables you don't see on an electronic game, if you're the slightest bit unfamiliar with live dealers/other players/table etiquette. And, yes, their familiarity with electronics and video games will attract them to those.
Here's the article.
Quote: beachbumbabsRe: press releases. I noticed that as well. lol... I think a lot of what you're seeing about electronic craps and roulette goes to 3 things. Primarily, significantly lower minimums. Also, there's an intimidation factor to live tables you don't see on an electronic game, if you're the slightest bit unfamiliar with live dealers/other players/table etiquette. And, yes, their familiarity with electronics and video games will attract them to those.
Here's the article.
I think that articles show the mindset that management throughout the industry has. The customer wants tables game but they are not as profitable as slots. Therefore we need to change the customer
Gee, that sounds like an idea that will work. Instead of focusing on giving the customer what he wants. The days of open the doors and let the suckers in are gone.
Online competition is in the near future. And B@M casinos plan to combat that by fleecing their current customer base. That has worked real well for horse and dog races tracks.
Quote: BuzzardQuote: beachbumbabsRe: press releases. I noticed that as well. lol... I think a lot of what you're seeing about electronic craps and roulette goes to 3 things. Primarily, significantly lower minimums. Also, there's an intimidation factor to live tables you don't see on an electronic game, if you're the slightest bit unfamiliar with live dealers/other players/table etiquette. And, yes, their familiarity with electronics and video games will attract them to those.
Here's the article.
I think that articles show the mindset that management throughout the industry has. The customer wants tables game but they are not as profitable as slots. Therefore we need to change the customer
Gee, that sounds like an idea that will work. Instead of focusing on giving the customer what he wants. The days of open the doors and let the suckers in are gone.
Online competition is in the near future. And B@M casinos plan to combat that by fleecing their current customer base. That has worked real well for horse and dog races tracks.
I'm reading a lot lately, including in that CJ issue in another article, that online gaming is (so far) a huge disappointment and underperformer as it's coming back in the US state by state. Also including some articles referenced in other threads. Not in a position to judge for myself whether that's true or hype, but definitely watching its progress.
Quote: DRichBeing mainly a slot machine guy, can someone give me rough estimates on how much the game manufacturers are charging for different leased table games? I understand there will be a wide range depending on game and casino. For comparison, I would estimate the average leased slot machine generates around $1500 a month in lease fees.
Around $500 for a Blackjack variation. Higher for poker variations in general, up to $1,800 for some of the main ones. 3CP leading the rates at an even higher lease fee.
$100-$300 for a side wager depending on it's success. I believe that '21+3' leads this with rates higher than usual.
Don't forget to add another $600 if you want to lease a shuffling machine for the game as well.
Quote: SwitchAround $500 for a Blackjack variation. Higher for poker variations in general, up to $1,800 for some of the main ones. 3CP leading the rates at an even higher lease fee.
$100-$300 for a side wager depending on it's success. I believe that '21+3' leads this with rates higher than usual.
Don't forget to add another $600 if you want to lease a shuffling machine for the game as well.
Thank you, that is very helpful. I am a little surprised that a single slot machine commands higher lease fees than a table with six or seven seats.
I thought many years ago when I did some work with Derek Webb i had heard that Three Card Poker was doing around $1500.
Last time in vegas, after a while I only played real craps when I wanted to bet more than 2X odds. Other than that,a nd the lower minimums, suually, for bubble craps, there's really very little difference in how I enjoy the game.
And there are always "spouses and spouse equivalents" so interviewing gamblers may not always be the best option because a gambler's spouse often makes the decisions and spends money too.
Casinos deal with a nightly ebb and flow of a crowd and often have to shift crews around. Casinos just can't lock themselves into any long term expectations but must be ready to deal with all trends and fads amongst customers.
As you said. Management. Ain't nothin' worse for a casino to have management that didn't climb through the ranks. MBA managers never listen to dealers. Dealers don't earn tokes at empty tables. Dealers earn tokes at tables with minimum bets that are appropriate for that market. A full table at ten dollars beats an empty table at ANY amount. If you run a casino, keep your dealers as happy as you can. Happy dealers make for pleasant experiences for the players. Players can win or lose but if they are relatively happy they will dig a bit deeper into their pockets for you. Broke morose dealers standing at an empty table for half their shift cost the casino money.Quote: Buzzard. Management will tell you ...
Quote: Tomspur3CP in 2005/6 was $480 per table per month. I would assume it has gone up appreciably from that spot. In the casino I'm currently in we negotiated and purchased the rights to the game for this property. I believe the deal was around the early 7 figures.
Isn't 3CP in the public domain now, if you don't run any of the progressives or anything? I'm surprised more casinos aren't just dealing vanilla 3CP and not paying the table fee. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding the parts of the game that require royalty payments.
Quote: AcesAndEightsIsn't 3CP in the public domain now, if you don't run any of the progressives or anything? I'm surprised more casinos aren't just dealing vanilla 3CP and not paying the table fee. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding the parts of the game that require royalty payments.
No, not yet.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, not yet.
Next year, right?
I will say Three Card Poker had the most incredible run of any proprietary game, and has become a Casino Pit "permanent standard" like Pai Gow Poker or BJ or Craps.
Quote: PaigowdanI think almost two years.
I will say Three Card Poker had the most incredible run of any proprietary game, and has become a Casino Pit "permanent standard" like Pai Gow Poker or BJ or Craps.
That's why I'm so surprised it didn't go over well in our joint. We only had a small handful of people who wanted to play it, not enough to justify having it.
Some games that are a hit in 9 out of 10 casinos bomb here and there. Other games that don't take hold in any sort of a big way become an absolute standard at a handful of scattered card rooms, never to be removed.
Edit: things like 3x WPT, 6-card Pai Gow, 3-hand Hold 'em, Texas Shootout, etc., have a small group of local joints here it's "the house game of OUR house!" Two Cards High is a game that could never take off here in the states, but there are some Casinos in South Korea where it is just da bomb, and gets action like crazy.
This perhaps shows that casinos can be more "nimble" with table games than they can be with slot machines. I'm curious as to why you predict that TwoCardsHigh could never take off in the states? It reminds me of that cartoon about the NFL players being on strike and saying they are irreplaceable while in the background two suomo wrestlers are approaching carrying their resumes.Quote: PaigowdanTwo Cards High is a game that could never take off here in the states, but there are some Casinos in South Korea where it is just da bomb, and gets action like crazy.
Quote: FleaStiffThis perhaps shows that casinos can be more "nimble" with table games than they can be with slot machines. I'm curious as to why you predict that TwoCardsHigh could never take off in the states? It reminds me of that cartoon about the NFL players being on strike and saying they are irreplaceable while in the background two suomo wrestlers are approaching carrying their resumes.
They tried at the Riviera and Flamingo, and it just didn't catch on here. It uses a Baccarat type hand - 5 cards to make a zero point 3-card hand, with high cards/pair to win the top. See WOO entry. I like the game, a fun thing, but it was a case of "Try it - you'll like it!" versus "I'm not gonna try it" winning out.
The limits were raised a few years ago to $100, but Colorado is still a $5 market.
Quote: BuzzardSlots can be changed in a heartbeat. Table games are a different animal.
Individual slot machines can be changed in a heartbeat. Move it. Yank it. Change the pretty pictures, change the bells, change the whistles, change the par sheets. Try new, try old, etc. Sure that stuff is all "heartbeat"... but a casino gets too much revenue from its slot machines to change them all at once. Its like changing the entire menu versus adding one item.
Table games requires paper work, some training, some space allocation and some observation, but putting in one game of XXXXXX is easy. It won't send everyone out the door and its not likely to bring everyone in the door either.
Quote: FleaStiffTable games requires paper work, some training, some space allocation and some observation, but putting in one game of XXXXXX is easy. It won't send everyone out the door and its not likely to bring everyone in the door either.
True. Each new table game requires a ton of math and paperwork to get started, and for each jurisdictional approval, though game variations and independent BJ side bets are easier.
But once approved, additional tables in a gaming area are a layout install and a session of dealer/floor training.
Quote: Paigowdan
Edit: things like 3x WPT, 6-card Pai Gow, 3-hand Hold 'em, Texas Shootout, etc., have a small group of local joints here it's "the house game of OUR house!" Two Cards High is a game that could never take off here in the states, but there are some Casinos in South Korea where it is just da bomb, and gets action like crazy.
Going to KC on thursday, Texas Shootout is a "house game" of Harrah's NKC. Also saw high card flush there a few weeks ago, was thinking about giving it a try, but the table was full.
Quote: tringlomaneGoing to KC on thursday, Texas Shootout is a "house game" of Harrah's NKC. Also saw high card flush there a few weeks ago, was thinking about giving it a try, but the table was full.
Texas Shootout is a WILD Texas Hold 'em game that is dealt out of an 6-deck shoe!! Wild in the sense of outrageous. 6-deck shoe Texas Hold 'em......
It has immense appeal to those who are not off-put by multi-deck Hold 'em.
Do get FIVE Kings of diamonds! [I can't get the plurals straight, forget about the action playing it.]
Quote: PaigowdanTexas Shootout is a WILD Texas Hold 'em game that is dealt out of an 8-deck shoe!!
It has immense appeal to those who are not off-put by multi-deck Hold 'em.
Do get FIVE King of diamonds!
Do they have a 8 deck version? 6 decks is all I have seen.
Edit to add: Sure Dan, edit your post after I quote it. :+)
Still a wild and interesting concept. I don't think 6 versus 8 decks detracts from multi-deck Hold 'em....it's still bona-fide 6-deck massively multi-deck Hold 'em.
It's one of those games that where it hooks in, it's the bomb, but many places don't want to try it, like it's un-American or something....it is nutty and fascinating and works where people "get it."
I can see where multi-deck poker messes with my head, - I'm less adventurous now. But hey, I can see it having juice...
Tringlomane - PLAY it and report back!!!
Dan, How many placements for High Card Flush in US now? Is it in UK or France now?Quote: tringlomaneAlso saw high card flush there a few weeks ago, was thinking about giving it a try, but the table was full.
Quote: UCivanDan, How many placements for High Card Flush in US now? Is it in UK or France now?
High Card Flush was trial in the UK (I think it was last year), don't know how it get on.
