beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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December 26th, 2013 at 1:56:15 PM permalink
Gotta partly disagree with DJTB, though only on esthetics (again); I like the diamond - it really grabs your eye.

I think you said earlier that you were using 5 low and 6 high on the field because that's what you were comfortable with for the house take. If not, you could make them the same number in either case as he suggests and it would look fine, I think.

BTW, on the individual number odds, you are paying trips (hardways) at the listed odds, even though the "high" and "low" bets lose on those, right?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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December 26th, 2013 at 2:05:40 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

...think of the layout?

I like the idea of the single dice numbers (91/216) paying Evens given three dice thrown (albeit lousy odds as in Sic-Bo they pay more) but do find the field and "Any Triple" bet{s} confusing. Personally I initially read a High Field and a Low Field, so would adjust the "Any Treble" box. I'm guessing (from the maths) the bet covers covers 3-7 (35) AND 13-18 (56) with opportunities for Double on 3 or 18. Any Triple (6/216) at 10 to 1 seems extraordinarily mean (since single numbers on roulette presumably pay 25 to 1 or more). Personally I might consider not having the nominated triple bets as they might be too risky to lay (assuming you're paying 100 to 1 or more), but like the layout as you could offer a split treble at say 50 to 1.
Riva
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December 27th, 2013 at 10:00:56 AM permalink
Let me try to explain my logic here....

I designed this game using the 90/10 rule, specifically: 90% of the wagers will be made by players on the "safe" bets. These are the bottom row of numbers 1-6, high-low, even-odd. 10% of the wagers will be made on the higher prop bets such as "any triple", "field", "specific total" and, specific triple.

Since most of the bets will be of the $1 variety, I wanted to make sure the players placed several bets with each roll versus say, placing just $1 on the "odd" and sipping on an umbrella drink. Unlike a real casino, we do not have the luxury of "time" so, in order to make money, there has to be lots of wagering going on. Ideally, I would like each player making 3-5 wagers per-roll; 1 or 2 "safe bets" and 1 or 2 high-risk bets. I think the layout invites that type of action.

Walking through each bet.

1-6. This is the old chuck-a-luck game. If a player puts down $1 on a number and one of the dice appears with that number, the player wins 1x the wager. If two dice appear, then the player wins 2x the wager. If 3 dice appear, then the player wins 3x the wager.
The house edge on this bet is 7.87%

"Field" This is not a "low field" or "high field" wager. Any number wins if that number appears, just like in craps. Paying double on the 3 and 18 does not change the house edge very much so, I just added it in for kicks. House edge on this wager is 13.99%

"Any Triple" Here, I start to shave payouts compared to a casino. Most casinos pay 30:1 on this bet. I pay 10:1. House edge: 69.44
Yes, it's a sucker bet but all players know is that they will get 10X their wager if any triple appears. So, if they put $5 in the any triple spot and a (any) triple appears, they would win $50. There would be lots of hollering with glee if/when that hits. I'm protected because I'll pay only $50 instead of $150. My guess is this will be the most popular proposition bet because there are 6 triples that could win for the player.

The "odd-even" and "over-under" are stand-alone wagers. For example, a player can put down $1 on the "even" and $1 on the high. Basically, both bets are even money however, if a triple appears, ALL bets lose, no matter what spot they are on. This gives the house edge of 2.78%. I'll take that all day long so long as there is money on the table. Basically, this wager is just trading dollars until a triple appears.

The "specific total" is simply taking the payouts from Sic Bo and shaving them by about 66%. House edge varies by the number but it averages out to about 65%. Again, all players know is that it's a goofy bet however, if the number hits, they will get a big payout.
Again, the mentality from the player is that they place 1 or more "safe" bets and hopefully, 1-or 2 proposition bets on every roll.

The "specific triple", again, is a direct lift from Sic Bo however, I have shaved the payout by about 66%. So, if a specific trips hits, it will pay 40:1. This has a house edge of 81.2%. Again, all the player knows that if they win, they make a lot of money.

Frankly, I am not too afraid of making big payouts to players because they don't come along that often, perhaps 2 or 3 per night.
Plus, players know that this is a high-risk bet so they are more inclined to make it a $1 wager than say $5 (max). Still, I am at risk if these wagers happen to hit a lot so, I was thinking of simply making the entire game a $1 game across the board. A player could theoretically have 10 wagers working on a roll however, none of them would be greater than $1. It takes a lot of rolls to recover a $200 payout.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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December 27th, 2013 at 10:26:00 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

...I designed this game using the 90/10 rule...

Recently a carnival game (cardette) went into our local casino. You bet on the total of two cards (a la Blackjack). It has bets on each total (9-1 upwards) and simple bets (1-1 upwards). Almost 95% of the bets are on the totals. I'm guessing there's no fun playing a carnival game for even money (which is why 3-card poker players nearly always play the sidebets).

As to offering bets with HE>50% I cannot comment since I don't play the UK lottery etc. Personally if I'm running a charity evening there's TWO parts - giving everyone an enjoyable evening and hopefully raising money for charity. Thus people (or others at a table) need occasional wins.

With a high HE people might play a game for a while, but eventually will think they're not getting a good run for their money and move on. I'm guessing they expect some hike in HE (e.g. don't has 1-2 as the bar, ties lose at BJ, 25-1 on Roulette) but anything much more (except the high odds sidebets) seems mean.

As an aside we used to have "Crown and Anchor" (essentially only the single dice bets 1 2 10), this went down well and it was an easy game for novice dealers to deal.
DJTeddyBear
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December 27th, 2013 at 12:13:14 PM permalink
Quote:

"Field" This is not a "low field" or "high field" wager. Any number wins if that number appears, just like in craps. Paying double on the 3 and 18 does not change the house edge very much so, I just added it in for kicks. House edge on this wager is 13.99%

Oh. I totally didn't think that was the case. If you're doing that, you HAVE to list all the numbers in the boxes otherwise people will only bet the 13-18 box. It's simple to fit: 3,4-7,13-17,18. This allows you to mention all the winners and allows the circle for the double payout.

I think people will tend to bet the specific triples rather than the any triple because that's easy math to figure out that the specific is a much better bet. Also the edge is way too high. Pay 45 and 15. Still way too high but at least the payouts make sense.

And my comment about the diamond? I was thinking about the position in the boxes representing where the player is standing on a craps table. If these are all self serve one roll bets, then it doesn't matter as much.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Riva
Riva
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December 27th, 2013 at 12:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Recently a carnival game (cardette) went into our local casino. You bet on the total of two cards (a la Blackjack). It has bets on each total (9-1 upwards) and simple bets (1-1 upwards). Almost 95% of the bets are on the totals. I'm guessing there's no fun playing a carnival game for even money (which is why 3-card poker players nearly always play the sidebets).

As to offering bets with HE>50% I cannot comment since I don't play the UK lottery etc. Personally if I'm running a charity evening there's TWO parts - giving everyone an enjoyable evening and hopefully raising money for charity. Thus people (or others at a table) need occasional wins.

With a high HE people might play a game for a while, but eventually will think they're not getting a good run for their money and move on. I'm guessing they expect some hike in HE (e.g. don't has 1-2 as the bar, ties lose at BJ, 25-1 on Roulette) but anything much more (except the high odds sidebets) seems mean.

As an aside we used to have "Crown and Anchor" (essentially only the single dice bets 1 2 10), this went down well and it was an easy game for novice dealers to deal.



I agree, any game where ALL the bets are high house edge, players will eventually stay away. That said, we own our own big six money wheel. I would say that there is at least one wager on the joker or the flag with every spin. Plus, people are stacked in line trying to get on this game. Go figure.

Again, our biggest challenge is "time". We are not open 24/7/365 like at a casino working a 2% he. Rather, we are open for about 8 hours so, we have to make money in the time we have. And, I would say people have a good time because on some occasions, players can't get in ANY game because it's so crowded.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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December 27th, 2013 at 12:38:54 PM permalink
Riva,

I would suggest you make the odd/even/high/low/1-6 bets $3-10 so you can capitalize on the lower HE, field $5-10, and make the rest dollar bets to keep your jackpot risk down. And I also wondered about the "low field/high field" thing because of the diamond divider, but I concluded it was all one field. Point being, I had to think about it, so there's a confusion factor in the graphics. I still like the diamond, because you want it to catch their eye and it does, but it could be 20% smaller and not touch the top edge of the field; it also could be in a contrasting color or border so it looks overlaid and jumps out from the field.

The 60+% HE on the any triple really is too high, even for charity, as is the single at 80%; make them $1 (2 at most) dollar bet limits and pay 20:1 and 50:1, I bet they'll get more action and you still limit your exposure to under 100/player.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
Riva
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December 28th, 2013 at 8:43:56 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Riva,

I would suggest you make the odd/even/high/low/1-6 bets $3-10 so you can capitalize on the lower HE, field $5-10, and make the rest dollar bets to keep your jackpot risk down. And I also wondered about the "low field/high field" thing because of the diamond divider, but I concluded it was all one field. Point being, I had to think about it, so there's a confusion factor in the graphics. I still like the diamond, because you want it to catch their eye and it does, but it could be 20% smaller and not touch the top edge of the field; it also could be in a contrasting color or border so it looks overlaid and jumps out from the field.

The 60+% HE on the any triple really is too high, even for charity, as is the single at 80%; make them $1 (2 at most) dollar bet limits and pay 20:1 and 50:1, I bet they'll get more action and you still limit your exposure to under 100/player.



Beach,

Thanks for the suggestions. I will contact the layout maker and try a few alternate color treatments for the diamond.

With regard to the "any triple' bet, I understand in Macau, where this game is very popular, they pay anywhere from 180:1 to 150:1. So, shaving it back to say, 50:1 is no big deal. The mindset behind the 40:1 is that, with a $5 max bet across the table, a 40:1 payout is the same as the "joker/flag" on the big six wheel. Plus, it's easy for the dealer to calculate. But then again, so is 50:1

I do have some trepidations about having two wager limits on the same game, say a $1-$5 on the low edge bets and a $1 max on the higher edge bets. Was thinking that if I set the table at $1-$5 anywhere just to make things easy. But then again, 1 $5 wager on a 50:1 winner takes a lot of $1 rolls to recover.

I can't pay a flat 20:1 on the " specific total" wager because that would actually provide a edge to the player in most instances. In a nutshell, what I did with these payouts is take the real sic bow payouts and shaved them by 66%. I supposed i could simply cut them in half.

The bigger issue is, once I print the layout ($350) that's it! I could however, put the payouts and wager limits on a foam-board and post it on/near the table and not print any payouts on the layout. We do that for roulette. The trouble with that is both the dealers and the players are constant looking at the darn thing to see what the bet pays and it slows down the game. Again, "time" is my worst enemy.

Final thought...If I made this game a straight-up $1 max bet anywhere, perhaps I should change the name to "Chuck-A-Buck".
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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December 28th, 2013 at 6:40:42 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Beach,

Thanks for the suggestions. I will contact the layout maker and try a few alternate color treatments for the diamond.

With regard to the "any triple' bet, I understand in Macau, where this game is very popular, they pay anywhere from 180:1 to 150:1. So, shaving it back to say, 50:1 is no big deal. The mindset behind the 40:1 is that, with a $5 max bet across the table, a 40:1 payout is the same as the "joker/flag" on the big six wheel. Plus, it's easy for the dealer to calculate. But then again, so is 50:1

I do have some trepidations about having two wager limits on the same game, say a $1-$5 on the low edge bets and a $1 max on the higher edge bets. Was thinking that if I set the table at $1-$5 anywhere just to make things easy. But then again, 1 $5 wager on a 50:1 winner takes a lot of $1 rolls to recover.

I can't pay a flat 20:1 on the " specific total" wager because that would actually provide a edge to the player in most instances. In a nutshell, what I did with these payouts is take the real sic bow payouts and shaved them by 66%. I supposed i could simply cut them in half.

The bigger issue is, once I print the layout ($350) that's it! I could however, put the payouts and wager limits on a foam-board and post it on/near the table and not print any payouts on the layout. We do that for roulette. The trouble with that is both the dealers and the players are constant looking at the darn thing to see what the bet pays and it slows down the game. Again, "time" is my worst enemy.

Final thought...If I made this game a straight-up $1 max bet anywhere, perhaps I should change the name to "Chuck-A-Buck".



I think we are cross-talking bets, Riva; I had understood 10:1 for "any triple" and 40:1 for a specific triple. I was suggesting you change those two bets to 20:1 for any triple, and 50:1 for a specific triple (each one), because the HE on those two bets is 60+ and 80-something respectively. I would still keep those as $1 bets though, $2 at the maximum. The specific combinations of non-triple bets odds seemed ok to me for your purposes.

I misunderstood that you wanted a $5 maximum in play per player as well; it seems to me that $5 is too little for the low-HE bets in the limited time you can operate, and was suggesting you bump that up to $10 maximum for those. But you know your players and your risk-tolerance much better than I do, so what works there is what's best for you.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
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December 31st, 2013 at 10:28:42 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I think we are cross-talking bets, Riva; I had understood 10:1 for "any triple" and 40:1 for a specific triple. I was suggesting you change those two bets to 20:1 for any triple, and 50:1 for a specific triple (each one), because the HE on those two bets is 60+ and 80-something respectively. I would still keep those as $1 bets though, $2 at the maximum. The specific combinations of non-triple bets odds seemed ok to me for your purposes.

I misunderstood that you wanted a $5 maximum in play per player as well; it seems to me that $5 is too little for the low-HE bets in the limited time you can operate, and was suggesting you bump that up to $10 maximum for those. But you know your players and your risk-tolerance much better than I do, so what works there is what's best for you.



Again, thanks for the input.

Some of the logic in structuring our wager limits is how easy it is for the dealer to make payouts (1) correctly and (2) in a timely manner. For the most part, all of our wagers are $1 minimum / $5 max. After a short while, the dealers become familiar with what the correct payout should be based on the amount bet. For example, in roulette, we pay 25:1 on a number. So, with a $5 winner, the dealer knows the payout is $125. Also, it's rare for players to put $5 on a single number, but it happens. Most often, the player puts $1 on several different bets (we have a $5 inside and $5 outside minimum, w/no single wager greater than $5). I am thinking that this game will be the same way, specifically: a bunch of $1 bets all over the the table.

Part of me thinks that if I limit the high edge wagers to $1, players will know that they are sucker bets. If I post $1 min / $5 max and apply it to the entire board, I'm not setting up a 2-tiered wager platform. If the player wants to bet $5 on a high-edge spot, I guess I should be happy because the chances of hitting a small and the payout has been shaved. That said, it's the amount that scares me! :)

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