Riva
Riva
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December 17th, 2013 at 2:10:59 PM permalink
I run a charity game for a local non-profit. It's real money gambling but nowhere near the scale of a small casino, perhaps 50 tables about 20 days per-year (all volunteers). I guess you would call it a "millionaire party" and people can make some nice money.

We own all of our own equipment and tables etc, because all the rental stuff is junk. Plus, it's expensive. We are always replacing layouts and tables so players get a real casino feel at our events. We also are on the lookout for new games to offer because that keeps players coming back.

Was thinking of introducing sic bo to the floor (with shaved payouts, of course) however, I don't think our players will warm up to the game as it has way too many betting spots/options. However, some bets on sic bo intrigued me and I set out to design a new game. I will then pay to have the layout printed and we will build a table for it. Actually, the layout design came out really nice and I think players will instantly understand and warm up to the game.

At the end of the day, this "new" game is simply a "cut and paste" from 3 old games, specifically the old "chuck-a-luck" game, a bet from craps and, a few of the wagers from sic bo. However, a few people who have seen my design have commented "damn, I'd play that at a casino." That got me thinking that there might be some value here beyond our own charity game. Also, I have read the white paper, "The Elements of a Successful Carnival Game"(1) and I believe I meet this criteria to the tee.

Nothing about this game is proprietary. All I have done is to take a few bets from chuck-a-luck, one from craps and a few from sic bo, had a custom layout made to make it look professional and, made a new game, which i will still call chuck-a-luck (on steroids).

Still, it's a brand new game which, to the best of my knowledge, nobody had put these various bets from 3 unique games in this configuration. My question is, how does one go about determining if this idea has value and, I guess the word for it is "patentable?"

Thoughts?

Thank you
jon
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December 17th, 2013 at 3:31:43 PM permalink
It is unlikely to be patentable if you've simply combined a few prior art bets. Then again, sometimes crazy stuff happens at the USPTO so you never know, but I'd give it at best a 1/7 chance of ever being issued. If you have a custom layout you could try for a design patent which you would probably get, albeit this would be much less valuable than a utility patent.
Riva
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December 17th, 2013 at 4:03:31 PM permalink
Quote: jon

It is unlikely to be patentable if you've simply combined a few prior art bets. Then again, sometimes crazy stuff happens at the USPTO so you never know, but I'd give it at best a 1/7 chance of ever being issued. If you have a custom layout you could try for a design patent which you would probably get, albeit this would be much less valuable than a utility patent.



Thank you for the input.

Perhaps this thing's greatest value is in the casino-party rental business.
beachbumbabs
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December 17th, 2013 at 6:25:25 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Thank you for the input.

Perhaps this thing's greatest value is in the casino-party rental business.



Riva,

jon didn't identify himself, so I don't know if you know this, but he's a patent attorney who specializes in casino games and works with at least one of the busiest and best game creators in the business. I would take what he said as definitive, not just speculative, and I sort of doubt many other people will weigh in now that he has.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AxelWolf
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December 18th, 2013 at 2:46:31 AM permalink
Just out of curiosity how dose this work? People who win money, do they leave with it? do they donate it? how dose all this work?

I have heard stories where people have cheated or APed events like this everything from Fake chips to card counting. How do you protect yourself from this kind of stuff.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:13:52 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Just out of curiosity how dose this work? People who win money, do they leave with it? do they donate it? how dose all this work?

I have heard stories where people have cheated or APed events like this everything from Fake chips to card counting. How do you protect yourself from this kind of stuff.



Lots of questions. Let me answer them one at a time...

Yes, it is real gambling however, you have to pull a license from the state. Plus, you are only allowed so many licenses per-year.

Virtually any game that appears in a casino is permitted. However, the house can set its own odds and payouts. That's how the house makes its money, specifically: paying out on normal 1:1 wagers and shaving payouts on the higher prop bets. For example, in roulette, we pay $25 on a number straight up. In blackjack, the house takes ties. remember, it's a charity game.

Rule #1: only management touches cash! Player buy chips (custom made with the school's logo imprinted). Players can not buy chips at the table. They must go to the front desk of buy from a roaming chip seller.

We know exactly how much money is provided to each dealer and how much they win or lose. Plus, we rotate them in and out and to new tables every 30 minutes. There is one pit boss for every 4 tables watching over things.

In Blackjack, we use 8-deck shoes. And, because our dealers are mostly volunteers, we shuffle the decks off to the side and bring them a new pre-shuffled shoe when they burn through the current shoe. In this manner, there is virtually zero down time shuffling cards whereas, if the volunteers shuffled, the table would be down 30%-40% of the night. When you're open for say only 8 hours, you have to make the most of the time you've got.

Players definitely try to cheat but if you put in enough controls and limit wagers and payouts, you can't get hurt too bad. We did have a professional magician take us for $5,000 on roulette in about 20 minutes a few years ago. NOBODY could figure out how he did it but his chip was always on a winning number. He went ballistic when he tried to cash in after 20 minutes when the cashier pointed to the sign that states that winning are limited to $500 tops (state law). Since he was by himself, he had nobody to off his chips to, which is what normally happens when somebody gets real lucky.

We train the dealers thoroughly however, mistakes happen. Failing to collect on a losing bet is the most common. Or, paying on a 24 on BJ (honest). Many of our volunteer dealers have been working the tables for 10-30 years. They love the job and they do it because the money helps the school. Plus, no strangers work the room in any capacity, either in the bank, selling chips, selling beer & popcorn. When you let strangers in, particularly volunteers, that's when the house has a partner.

I am appalled when I go in to other charitable games to see the lack of control and processes. It literally is a license to steal. That doesn't happen at our events and we have never lost money in 35 years of doing them.
AxelWolf
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:43:12 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

Lots of questions. Let me answer them one at a time...

Yes, it is real gambling however, you have to pull a license from the state. Plus, you are only allowed so many licenses per-year.

Virtually any game that appears in a casino is permitted. However, the house can set its own odds and payouts. That's how the house makes its money, specifically: paying out on normal 1:1 wagers and shaving payouts on the higher prop bets. For example, in roulette, we pay $25 on a number straight up. In blackjack, the house takes ties. remember, it's a charity game.

Rule #1: only management touches cash! Player buy chips (custom made with the school's logo imprinted). Players can not buy chips at the table. They must go to the front desk of buy from a roaming chip seller.

We know exactly how much money is provided to each dealer and how much they win or lose. Plus, we rotate them in and out and to new tables every 30 minutes. There is one pit boss for every 4 tables watching over things.

In Blackjack, we use 8-deck shoes. And, because our dealers are mostly volunteers, we shuffle the decks off to the side and bring them a new pre-shuffled shoe when they burn through the current shoe. In this manner, there is virtually zero down time shuffling cards whereas, if the volunteers shuffled, the table would be down 30%-40% of the night. When you're open for say only 8 hours, you have to make the most of the time you've got.

Players definitely try to cheat but if you put in enough controls and limit wagers and payouts, you can't get hurt too bad. We did have a professional magician take us for $5,000 on roulette in about 20 minutes a few years ago. NOBODY could figure out how he did it but his chip was always on a winning number. He went ballistic when he tried to cash in after 20 minutes when the cashier pointed to the sign that states that winning are limited to $500 tops (state law). Since he was by himself, he had nobody to off his chips to, which is what normally happens when somebody gets real lucky.

We train the dealers thoroughly however, mistakes happen. Failing to collect on a losing bet is the most common. Or, paying on a 24 on BJ (honest). Many of our volunteer dealers have been working the tables for 10-30 years. They love the job and they do it because the money helps the school. Plus, no strangers work the room in any capacity, either in the bank, selling chips, selling beer & popcorn. When you let strangers in, particularly volunteers, that's when the house has a partner.

I am appalled when I go in to other charitable games to see the lack of control and processes. It literally is a license to steal. That doesn't happen at our events and we have never lost money in 35 years of doing them.

Sound fun working on this stuff.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Ibeatyouraces
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:46:50 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Dween
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:47:37 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

I am appalled when I go in to other charitable games to see the lack of control and processes. It literally is a license to steal.

This is one of the reasons I have volunteered to be the Blackjack "Pit Boss" at my school/church's charity gaming night. I was tired of seeing sloppy/drunk dealers, incorrect payouts, etc. I have been battling against them for a few years, and still haven't won some of those fights... it seems that some dealers would volunteer because they could have free beer. WHILE DEALING.

I try to put in as much control as I can, and attempt to keep track of what dealers make/lose money so I can figure out why it's happening. Maybe this year I'll go iron-fist and tell them it's my way or the highway for the Blackjack Pit. More work for me, but more control.

Also, your reinvented game reminds me of Bang. It is Beat the Dealer with a field, over/under 7, and Big 6 & 8 bets added on. More action than straight Beat the Dealer. Your game idea sounds interesting, but I'm wondering what Craps bet you would add for a 3-dice game.
-Dween!
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:51:38 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Sound fun working on this stuff.



It is fun but still, it's a lot of work. We have one event that takes place in a huge outdoor tent on campus over the 4-day Memorial Day weekend. That one is like a full week of 14 hour days.

I'm semi-retired so I have time to focus on this stuff. My goal is to make the games fun for the players and profitable for the house. The only way to do that is with defined processes and tight controls. Otherwise, you might as well put cash in an envelope, drop it in a basket, and hope it's still there where it reaches the altar.
AxelWolf
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:52:39 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

It is fun but still, it's a lot of work. We have one event that takes place in a huge outdoor tent on campus over the 4-day Memorial Day weekend. That one is like a full week of 14 hour days.

I'm semi-retired so I have time to focus on this stuff. My goal is to make the games fun for the players and profitable for the house. The only way to do that is with defined processes and tight controls. Otherwise, you might as well put cash in an envelope, drop it in a basket, and hope it's still there where it reaches the altar.

Do you get paid for this?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:55:16 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

These "Vegas Nights" have virtually disappeared in Michigan now that there are charity poker rooms everywhere.



I am also from Michigan and am VERY familiar with this issue. I have several solutions for these matters that i plan to pursue in the Legislature.

The poker rooms are soon to be extinct and the charities have nobody to blame but themselves!
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:57:10 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Do you get paid for this?



No, I like the school. I feel you have to volunteer somewhere. Plus the money goes to a really good cause.
Ibeatyouraces
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:59:10 AM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 8:12:38 AM permalink
Quote: Dween

This is one of the reasons I have volunteered to be the Blackjack "Pit Boss" at my school/church's charity gaming night. I was tired of seeing sloppy/drunk dealers, incorrect payouts, etc. I have been battling against them for a few years, and still haven't won some of those fights... it seems that some dealers would volunteer because they could have free beer. WHILE DEALING.

I try to put in as much control as I can, and attempt to keep track of what dealers make/lose money so I can figure out why it's happening. Maybe this year I'll go iron-fist and tell them it's my way or the highway for the Blackjack Pit. More work for me, but more control.

Also, your reinvented game reminds me of Bang. It is Beat the Dealer with a field, over/under 7, and Big 6 & 8 bets added on. More action than straight Beat the Dealer. Your game idea sounds interesting, but I'm wondering what Craps bet you would add for a 3-dice game.



I have not always been in charge of our events but I know your pain. For the first few years I volunteered there i dealt craps on a table a person made using a 4'x8' sheet of plywood. You could only get about 6 players on the table and the house would not allow any bet greater than $1. The MOST we ever made in one night was $200. It was torture. Finally, I said "for $200, I'll just write the school a check!"

Shortly thereafter, I purchased a used 14' craps table for $3,000. Everybody screamed that it would take 25 years to recover the costs of the table. The VERY FIRST night we had the table in use, we recovered the $3,000 cost by 10:00 PM!!! This was done by raising the wagers to $1-$5, shave the payouts on the prop bets and hire 3 pro dealers for the night ($150 total) . We've had the table for about 10 years now and it regularly brings in about $5,000 per-night. That's probably 50 nights of action.
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 8:17:33 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

They just need better oversight. The ones I'm familiar with and the one I worked at are run very strictly by the rules from the state. But I agree, it got very out of hand for a while in a lot of locations.



What they need is to be out of business, in my opinion. The abuse that goes in occurs because the charity has no skin in the game. the poker room provides the building, the tables, the dealers and the charity merely provides a license. I'll post my position paper on these matters if you are interested. The bottom line is that charities should invest in their own game and control their own destiny. Currently, they do neither.
Ibeatyouraces
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December 18th, 2013 at 8:31:07 AM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
beachbumbabs
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December 18th, 2013 at 8:41:56 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I agree. The charity in most places only get 50% after paying the dealers and other expenses. The companies that run the rooms are making a killing. One thing in this situation is that the charities assume no risk. If by chance there is a losing night, and we had a few, the company running it assumes the loss.

One of the nights, our room manager foolishly let a known big player bet 3 x $25 at blackjack. Our normal limits were $2-$10. And as bad as he plays (I know him very well), and with the crappy charity rules, he took us for over $2600 in a very short time in one night. Of course we won it back from him in subsequent nights, but that particular charity hardly made a profit.



I've never heard of these places. So does a charity "buy" a night or series of nights by getting a permit issued, but the poker room runs a reqular schedule in a permanent facility with regular staff? "Tonight, you're playing for the March of Dimes". The next night, "Tonight, you're playing for the American Heart Association." Like that? And they play regular casino games for real money? (I get what Riva's doing)
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Ibeatyouraces
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December 18th, 2013 at 8:53:15 AM permalink
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MathExtremist
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December 18th, 2013 at 8:53:44 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

Nothing about this game is proprietary. All I have done is to take a few bets from chuck-a-luck, one from craps and a few from sic bo, had a custom layout made to make it look professional and, made a new game, which i will still call chuck-a-luck (on steroids).

Still, it's a brand new game which, to the best of my knowledge, nobody had put these various bets from 3 unique games in this configuration. My question is, how does one go about determining if this idea has value and, I guess the word for it is "patentable?"

Thoughts?

Thank you


This is almost certainly not patentable, not if you -- as the putative inventor -- consider it to be nothing more than taking a few bets from game A and game B and allowing the players to bet on any combination of them. Patents must be novel, non-obvious, and useful. One of the standards for obviousness, upheld by the Supreme Court and codified in USPTO procedures, is that "[t]he combination of familiar elements according to known methods is likely to be obvious when it does no more than yield predictable results." KSR, 550 U.S. at ___, 82 USPQ2d at 1395. See MPEP 2141 at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2141.html

In short, by combining known prior bets and getting what you'd expect from that combination (a game with multiple bet spots), a patent is unlikely.

The question of whether it has value is different. There are lots of unpatented games in operation today that make plenty of money and therefore have value. There's no reason yours can't be one of them, and it sounds like it already is. However, without additional IP protection, you have little recourse for earning royalties from any other companies who copy it, and the gaming industry is full of examples where one company released a product but another copied it and became more successful. You should talk to an IP attorney to discuss options (other than a patent) for how you may obtain whatever protection is available.

On the other hand, if you want to offer a patented game for your casino nights, PM me. I have plenty.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 9:58:38 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

This is almost certainly not patentable, not if you -- as the putative inventor -- consider it to be nothing more than taking a few bets from game A and game B and allowing the players to bet on any combination of them. Patents must be novel, non-obvious, and useful. One of the standards for obviousness, upheld by the Supreme Court and codified in USPTO procedures, is that "[t]he combination of familiar elements according to known methods is likely to be obvious when it does no more than yield predictable results." KSR, 550 U.S. at ___, 82 USPQ2d at 1395. See MPEP 2141 at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2141.html

In short, by combining known prior bets and getting what you'd expect from that combination (a game with multiple bet spots), a patent is unlikely.

The question of whether it has value is different. There are lots of unpatented games in operation today that make plenty of money and therefore have value. There's no reason yours can't be one of them, and it sounds like it already is. However, without additional IP protection, you have little recourse for earning royalties from any other companies who copy it, and the gaming industry is full of examples where one company released a product but another copied it and became more successful. You should talk to an IP attorney to discuss options (other than a patent) for how you may obtain whatever protection is available.

On the other hand, if you want to offer a patented game for your casino nights, PM me. I have plenty.




I guess if you saw my game, we both agree that its probably not patentable. That's why I'm not getting too excited about this.
However, from a fundraising perspective, i would think that virtually every organization that sponsors a millionaire party would want to have this game at their event. On some wagers, the house edge is only 2.3%. However, there are some that are considerably higher. Again, this is how we make our money at our charitable games, specifically; players typically stay with the bets that have a low house edge for 90% of the time and then say, "oh what the heck" and put a shekel or two down on a bet having a big house edge 10% of the time. It's the 10% that make the big money for us. Charities simply can not make money at games having a low house edge and nothing else. Unlike casinos, they simply do not have the time to make 2.5% house edge turn into meaningful income during the 6-8 hours they are open for business. Casinos are open 24/7.

As I mentioned, we own all our own tables and I work with a great company in California that makes our custom layouts for us. I'd put up a few pictures if I knew how.
beachbumbabs
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December 18th, 2013 at 10:18:44 AM permalink
Quote: Riva


As I mentioned, we own all our own tables and I work with a great company in California that makes our custom layouts for us. I'd put up a few pictures if I knew how.



Somebody gave me this link a few weeks ago; it's perfect and easy to use for uploading. (it will open in a new tab)

1. Browse your hard drive for the picture.
2. click "upload now!"
3. highlight and copy the last box of the 4 that appears.
4. come back to the post you're writing here and paste into this (hit "quote" below to read what I wrote, rather than the red x box. it's red x because it's blank, but it says img= inside brackets.)

That's all it takes for each picture. 30 seconds at most. Sometimes you have to do a little verification thing, about every 4th picture.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
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December 26th, 2013 at 10:39:42 AM permalink
I cant get this to work.
teliot
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December 26th, 2013 at 11:38:44 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

I cant get this to work.

Here:

http://www.tinypic.com
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
Riva
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December 26th, 2013 at 12:13:03 PM permalink
http://i43.tinypic.com/mrvmo0.png

Well, let's see if this works.

http://i43.tinypic.com/mrvmo0.jpg
beachbumbabs
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December 26th, 2013 at 12:21:08 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

http://i43.tinypic.com/mrvmo0.png

Well, let's see if this works.

http://i43.tinypic.com/mrvmo0.jpg



it does if you enclose the http addresses in brackets [] and put img= just in front of the http.

like this (quote me so you can see what I did)



If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
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December 26th, 2013 at 1:32:12 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

it does if you enclose the http addresses in brackets [] and put img= just in front of the http.

like this (quote me so you can see what I did)





Got it. Thanks.

Watta ya think of the layout?
DJTeddyBear
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December 26th, 2013 at 1:40:29 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Watta ya think of the layout?

Why are there 5 low field numbers but 6 high field numbers?
Also, make the Any Triple a simple rectangle so all 6 die number boxes can be the same.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
beachbumbabs
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December 26th, 2013 at 1:51:51 PM permalink
I think it's really great, very attractive, nice graphics.

I would suggest one change, but it's mostly esthetic. Within the 4 boxes of 1:1 bets, instead of listing them side-by-side

High Low Odd Even

I would make 4 wide boxes in 2 rows (keep the "loses on triples" and all the rest the same).

I would put them like this:

Low High
Odd Even

And have the low under the 7 individual low pays, and the high under the 7 individual high pays (the sizes of the boxes).

That way the low and high would be self-defining, and you wouldn't need the "over 10" and "under 11" descriptors at all. The Odd and Even line below that would help delineate those bets from the field, which is a subset of them (although the field will pay triples if I'm reading it correctly, except trip 3 and 4).

I can't really tell if that's practical as to chip size, whether they would fit on the line if the box were half as tall, but it works on the "place" and "buy" lines (which I think are much shorter than this would turn out to be) and those work fine on regular craps tables.

Nothing wrong with how you've done it here, however, and I suspect you already considered that and went this way instead. Hope you have a lot of interest from your patrons!
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AxelWolf
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December 26th, 2013 at 1:55:39 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Quote: beachbumbabs

it does if you enclose the http addresses in brackets [] and put img= just in front of the http.

like this (quote me so you can see what I did)





Got it. Thanks.

Watta ya think of the layout?

Is it just me, or what,?I just cant take a game seriously with that name
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
beachbumbabs
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December 26th, 2013 at 1:56:15 PM permalink
Gotta partly disagree with DJTB, though only on esthetics (again); I like the diamond - it really grabs your eye.

I think you said earlier that you were using 5 low and 6 high on the field because that's what you were comfortable with for the house take. If not, you could make them the same number in either case as he suggests and it would look fine, I think.

BTW, on the individual number odds, you are paying trips (hardways) at the listed odds, even though the "high" and "low" bets lose on those, right?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
charliepatrick
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December 26th, 2013 at 2:05:40 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

...think of the layout?

I like the idea of the single dice numbers (91/216) paying Evens given three dice thrown (albeit lousy odds as in Sic-Bo they pay more) but do find the field and "Any Triple" bet{s} confusing. Personally I initially read a High Field and a Low Field, so would adjust the "Any Treble" box. I'm guessing (from the maths) the bet covers covers 3-7 (35) AND 13-18 (56) with opportunities for Double on 3 or 18. Any Triple (6/216) at 10 to 1 seems extraordinarily mean (since single numbers on roulette presumably pay 25 to 1 or more). Personally I might consider not having the nominated triple bets as they might be too risky to lay (assuming you're paying 100 to 1 or more), but like the layout as you could offer a split treble at say 50 to 1.
Riva
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December 27th, 2013 at 10:00:56 AM permalink
Let me try to explain my logic here....

I designed this game using the 90/10 rule, specifically: 90% of the wagers will be made by players on the "safe" bets. These are the bottom row of numbers 1-6, high-low, even-odd. 10% of the wagers will be made on the higher prop bets such as "any triple", "field", "specific total" and, specific triple.

Since most of the bets will be of the $1 variety, I wanted to make sure the players placed several bets with each roll versus say, placing just $1 on the "odd" and sipping on an umbrella drink. Unlike a real casino, we do not have the luxury of "time" so, in order to make money, there has to be lots of wagering going on. Ideally, I would like each player making 3-5 wagers per-roll; 1 or 2 "safe bets" and 1 or 2 high-risk bets. I think the layout invites that type of action.

Walking through each bet.

1-6. This is the old chuck-a-luck game. If a player puts down $1 on a number and one of the dice appears with that number, the player wins 1x the wager. If two dice appear, then the player wins 2x the wager. If 3 dice appear, then the player wins 3x the wager.
The house edge on this bet is 7.87%

"Field" This is not a "low field" or "high field" wager. Any number wins if that number appears, just like in craps. Paying double on the 3 and 18 does not change the house edge very much so, I just added it in for kicks. House edge on this wager is 13.99%

"Any Triple" Here, I start to shave payouts compared to a casino. Most casinos pay 30:1 on this bet. I pay 10:1. House edge: 69.44
Yes, it's a sucker bet but all players know is that they will get 10X their wager if any triple appears. So, if they put $5 in the any triple spot and a (any) triple appears, they would win $50. There would be lots of hollering with glee if/when that hits. I'm protected because I'll pay only $50 instead of $150. My guess is this will be the most popular proposition bet because there are 6 triples that could win for the player.

The "odd-even" and "over-under" are stand-alone wagers. For example, a player can put down $1 on the "even" and $1 on the high. Basically, both bets are even money however, if a triple appears, ALL bets lose, no matter what spot they are on. This gives the house edge of 2.78%. I'll take that all day long so long as there is money on the table. Basically, this wager is just trading dollars until a triple appears.

The "specific total" is simply taking the payouts from Sic Bo and shaving them by about 66%. House edge varies by the number but it averages out to about 65%. Again, all players know is that it's a goofy bet however, if the number hits, they will get a big payout.
Again, the mentality from the player is that they place 1 or more "safe" bets and hopefully, 1-or 2 proposition bets on every roll.

The "specific triple", again, is a direct lift from Sic Bo however, I have shaved the payout by about 66%. So, if a specific trips hits, it will pay 40:1. This has a house edge of 81.2%. Again, all the player knows that if they win, they make a lot of money.

Frankly, I am not too afraid of making big payouts to players because they don't come along that often, perhaps 2 or 3 per night.
Plus, players know that this is a high-risk bet so they are more inclined to make it a $1 wager than say $5 (max). Still, I am at risk if these wagers happen to hit a lot so, I was thinking of simply making the entire game a $1 game across the board. A player could theoretically have 10 wagers working on a roll however, none of them would be greater than $1. It takes a lot of rolls to recover a $200 payout.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks
charliepatrick
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December 27th, 2013 at 10:26:00 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

...I designed this game using the 90/10 rule...

Recently a carnival game (cardette) went into our local casino. You bet on the total of two cards (a la Blackjack). It has bets on each total (9-1 upwards) and simple bets (1-1 upwards). Almost 95% of the bets are on the totals. I'm guessing there's no fun playing a carnival game for even money (which is why 3-card poker players nearly always play the sidebets).

As to offering bets with HE>50% I cannot comment since I don't play the UK lottery etc. Personally if I'm running a charity evening there's TWO parts - giving everyone an enjoyable evening and hopefully raising money for charity. Thus people (or others at a table) need occasional wins.

With a high HE people might play a game for a while, but eventually will think they're not getting a good run for their money and move on. I'm guessing they expect some hike in HE (e.g. don't has 1-2 as the bar, ties lose at BJ, 25-1 on Roulette) but anything much more (except the high odds sidebets) seems mean.

As an aside we used to have "Crown and Anchor" (essentially only the single dice bets 1 2 10), this went down well and it was an easy game for novice dealers to deal.
DJTeddyBear
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December 27th, 2013 at 12:13:14 PM permalink
Quote:

"Field" This is not a "low field" or "high field" wager. Any number wins if that number appears, just like in craps. Paying double on the 3 and 18 does not change the house edge very much so, I just added it in for kicks. House edge on this wager is 13.99%

Oh. I totally didn't think that was the case. If you're doing that, you HAVE to list all the numbers in the boxes otherwise people will only bet the 13-18 box. It's simple to fit: 3,4-7,13-17,18. This allows you to mention all the winners and allows the circle for the double payout.

I think people will tend to bet the specific triples rather than the any triple because that's easy math to figure out that the specific is a much better bet. Also the edge is way too high. Pay 45 and 15. Still way too high but at least the payouts make sense.

And my comment about the diamond? I was thinking about the position in the boxes representing where the player is standing on a craps table. If these are all self serve one roll bets, then it doesn't matter as much.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Riva
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December 27th, 2013 at 12:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Recently a carnival game (cardette) went into our local casino. You bet on the total of two cards (a la Blackjack). It has bets on each total (9-1 upwards) and simple bets (1-1 upwards). Almost 95% of the bets are on the totals. I'm guessing there's no fun playing a carnival game for even money (which is why 3-card poker players nearly always play the sidebets).

As to offering bets with HE>50% I cannot comment since I don't play the UK lottery etc. Personally if I'm running a charity evening there's TWO parts - giving everyone an enjoyable evening and hopefully raising money for charity. Thus people (or others at a table) need occasional wins.

With a high HE people might play a game for a while, but eventually will think they're not getting a good run for their money and move on. I'm guessing they expect some hike in HE (e.g. don't has 1-2 as the bar, ties lose at BJ, 25-1 on Roulette) but anything much more (except the high odds sidebets) seems mean.

As an aside we used to have "Crown and Anchor" (essentially only the single dice bets 1 2 10), this went down well and it was an easy game for novice dealers to deal.



I agree, any game where ALL the bets are high house edge, players will eventually stay away. That said, we own our own big six money wheel. I would say that there is at least one wager on the joker or the flag with every spin. Plus, people are stacked in line trying to get on this game. Go figure.

Again, our biggest challenge is "time". We are not open 24/7/365 like at a casino working a 2% he. Rather, we are open for about 8 hours so, we have to make money in the time we have. And, I would say people have a good time because on some occasions, players can't get in ANY game because it's so crowded.
beachbumbabs
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December 27th, 2013 at 12:38:54 PM permalink
Riva,

I would suggest you make the odd/even/high/low/1-6 bets $3-10 so you can capitalize on the lower HE, field $5-10, and make the rest dollar bets to keep your jackpot risk down. And I also wondered about the "low field/high field" thing because of the diamond divider, but I concluded it was all one field. Point being, I had to think about it, so there's a confusion factor in the graphics. I still like the diamond, because you want it to catch their eye and it does, but it could be 20% smaller and not touch the top edge of the field; it also could be in a contrasting color or border so it looks overlaid and jumps out from the field.

The 60+% HE on the any triple really is too high, even for charity, as is the single at 80%; make them $1 (2 at most) dollar bet limits and pay 20:1 and 50:1, I bet they'll get more action and you still limit your exposure to under 100/player.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
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December 28th, 2013 at 8:43:56 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Riva,

I would suggest you make the odd/even/high/low/1-6 bets $3-10 so you can capitalize on the lower HE, field $5-10, and make the rest dollar bets to keep your jackpot risk down. And I also wondered about the "low field/high field" thing because of the diamond divider, but I concluded it was all one field. Point being, I had to think about it, so there's a confusion factor in the graphics. I still like the diamond, because you want it to catch their eye and it does, but it could be 20% smaller and not touch the top edge of the field; it also could be in a contrasting color or border so it looks overlaid and jumps out from the field.

The 60+% HE on the any triple really is too high, even for charity, as is the single at 80%; make them $1 (2 at most) dollar bet limits and pay 20:1 and 50:1, I bet they'll get more action and you still limit your exposure to under 100/player.



Beach,

Thanks for the suggestions. I will contact the layout maker and try a few alternate color treatments for the diamond.

With regard to the "any triple' bet, I understand in Macau, where this game is very popular, they pay anywhere from 180:1 to 150:1. So, shaving it back to say, 50:1 is no big deal. The mindset behind the 40:1 is that, with a $5 max bet across the table, a 40:1 payout is the same as the "joker/flag" on the big six wheel. Plus, it's easy for the dealer to calculate. But then again, so is 50:1

I do have some trepidations about having two wager limits on the same game, say a $1-$5 on the low edge bets and a $1 max on the higher edge bets. Was thinking that if I set the table at $1-$5 anywhere just to make things easy. But then again, 1 $5 wager on a 50:1 winner takes a lot of $1 rolls to recover.

I can't pay a flat 20:1 on the " specific total" wager because that would actually provide a edge to the player in most instances. In a nutshell, what I did with these payouts is take the real sic bow payouts and shaved them by 66%. I supposed i could simply cut them in half.

The bigger issue is, once I print the layout ($350) that's it! I could however, put the payouts and wager limits on a foam-board and post it on/near the table and not print any payouts on the layout. We do that for roulette. The trouble with that is both the dealers and the players are constant looking at the darn thing to see what the bet pays and it slows down the game. Again, "time" is my worst enemy.

Final thought...If I made this game a straight-up $1 max bet anywhere, perhaps I should change the name to "Chuck-A-Buck".
beachbumbabs
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December 28th, 2013 at 6:40:42 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Beach,

Thanks for the suggestions. I will contact the layout maker and try a few alternate color treatments for the diamond.

With regard to the "any triple' bet, I understand in Macau, where this game is very popular, they pay anywhere from 180:1 to 150:1. So, shaving it back to say, 50:1 is no big deal. The mindset behind the 40:1 is that, with a $5 max bet across the table, a 40:1 payout is the same as the "joker/flag" on the big six wheel. Plus, it's easy for the dealer to calculate. But then again, so is 50:1

I do have some trepidations about having two wager limits on the same game, say a $1-$5 on the low edge bets and a $1 max on the higher edge bets. Was thinking that if I set the table at $1-$5 anywhere just to make things easy. But then again, 1 $5 wager on a 50:1 winner takes a lot of $1 rolls to recover.

I can't pay a flat 20:1 on the " specific total" wager because that would actually provide a edge to the player in most instances. In a nutshell, what I did with these payouts is take the real sic bow payouts and shaved them by 66%. I supposed i could simply cut them in half.

The bigger issue is, once I print the layout ($350) that's it! I could however, put the payouts and wager limits on a foam-board and post it on/near the table and not print any payouts on the layout. We do that for roulette. The trouble with that is both the dealers and the players are constant looking at the darn thing to see what the bet pays and it slows down the game. Again, "time" is my worst enemy.

Final thought...If I made this game a straight-up $1 max bet anywhere, perhaps I should change the name to "Chuck-A-Buck".



I think we are cross-talking bets, Riva; I had understood 10:1 for "any triple" and 40:1 for a specific triple. I was suggesting you change those two bets to 20:1 for any triple, and 50:1 for a specific triple (each one), because the HE on those two bets is 60+ and 80-something respectively. I would still keep those as $1 bets though, $2 at the maximum. The specific combinations of non-triple bets odds seemed ok to me for your purposes.

I misunderstood that you wanted a $5 maximum in play per player as well; it seems to me that $5 is too little for the low-HE bets in the limited time you can operate, and was suggesting you bump that up to $10 maximum for those. But you know your players and your risk-tolerance much better than I do, so what works there is what's best for you.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
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December 31st, 2013 at 10:28:42 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I think we are cross-talking bets, Riva; I had understood 10:1 for "any triple" and 40:1 for a specific triple. I was suggesting you change those two bets to 20:1 for any triple, and 50:1 for a specific triple (each one), because the HE on those two bets is 60+ and 80-something respectively. I would still keep those as $1 bets though, $2 at the maximum. The specific combinations of non-triple bets odds seemed ok to me for your purposes.

I misunderstood that you wanted a $5 maximum in play per player as well; it seems to me that $5 is too little for the low-HE bets in the limited time you can operate, and was suggesting you bump that up to $10 maximum for those. But you know your players and your risk-tolerance much better than I do, so what works there is what's best for you.



Again, thanks for the input.

Some of the logic in structuring our wager limits is how easy it is for the dealer to make payouts (1) correctly and (2) in a timely manner. For the most part, all of our wagers are $1 minimum / $5 max. After a short while, the dealers become familiar with what the correct payout should be based on the amount bet. For example, in roulette, we pay 25:1 on a number. So, with a $5 winner, the dealer knows the payout is $125. Also, it's rare for players to put $5 on a single number, but it happens. Most often, the player puts $1 on several different bets (we have a $5 inside and $5 outside minimum, w/no single wager greater than $5). I am thinking that this game will be the same way, specifically: a bunch of $1 bets all over the the table.

Part of me thinks that if I limit the high edge wagers to $1, players will know that they are sucker bets. If I post $1 min / $5 max and apply it to the entire board, I'm not setting up a 2-tiered wager platform. If the player wants to bet $5 on a high-edge spot, I guess I should be happy because the chances of hitting a small and the payout has been shaved. That said, it's the amount that scares me! :)
beachbumbabs
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December 31st, 2013 at 11:37:10 AM permalink
I am far from an expert on human psychological factors, but I think if you did have a 2-tier bet structure it would not chase away those who are attracted to high odds. This is common on many sidebets, where the min-max is different, just for the reasons you mention; they don't want the exposure of a long-odds bet coming in for big money. Nearly all the blackjack sidebets I've seen have such a restriction, and many carnival games as well. I suspect the Firebet on craps has a table maximum that's lower than the table itself, but I don't know that (others on here can confirm it). So there's lots of precedent for doing it.

In the end it's certainly up to you; you know your crowd, your dealers' level of proficiency, your risk tolerance, but I still think a 2 tier system will maximize your profits on the table while limiting your risk to an acceptable level.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
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February 6th, 2014 at 5:37:09 PM permalink
OK....last chance..I am going to have the color break on the "any triple" changed to some variation that identifies it as its own wager/bet.

I am also going to change the payout to 20:1 so as to be more "fair".

Finally. I will make the payout on "specific triple" to 50:1 instead of 40:1.

Last chance..any other suggestions?

As always...thanks!
Riva
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March 2nd, 2014 at 4:53:57 PM permalink
I know that this is a stale thread but, somebody just made a suggestion to me which I think has some merit....

Again, I am going to change the "any triple" to 20:1 to be more fair. And, we'll make a "specific triple" 50:1 for the same reason.

Previously, there was some discussion that we should limit the "specific triple", "specific number" and "any triple" to a $1 max bet in order to limit house exposure. That certainly makes sense however, I think it adds to player/dealer confusion, specifically, "Why a $5 max on these spots and, only a $1 max bet on these spots?"

Here are the suggestions I received that I would appreciate any input....

Rather than have a two-tiered wager platform, make the entire table a "same wager" platform. Specifically: every wager spot has the same minimum/maximum wager limit: $1. Yes, you'll lose the $5 action on the low h/e spots while limiting house exposure on the spots where there is high house exposure.

I happen to think that the latter is the better/safer path overall. Plus, it kills most dealer player confusion: "All bets $1.00 minimum/maximum". Sort of clarifies things, don't you think? Makes it like roulette..arbitrary wagering: (" a dollar here and a dollar there, and a dollar here and, a dollar there, and a dollar here," etc.)

The second suggestion was to change the name of the game so as to better coincide with the wager/betting strategy. "Chuck-A-Luck" has significant "traditional value" as a game but, few combine the name with any sort of wager strategy. The suggestion was to change the name of the game to coincide with the wager regimen while retaining the theme of "winning".

Here are the some suggestions from my colleague based on this new betting/wager platform...

"Buck-O-Luck"

"Buck-A-Luck"

"Dollar Dayz"

"Buck Fever"

As always, your input is appreciated. Thanks.
MrCasinoGames
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March 2nd, 2014 at 5:53:51 PM permalink
Hi Riva,

I like "Dollar Dayz" or "Buck Fever".
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
beachbumbabs
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March 2nd, 2014 at 8:13:31 PM permalink
Those are both good. Maybe also consider

One Buck Chuck (my favorite)
Dollar Dice
Bet the Buck
Bucks for Bonz
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
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March 3rd, 2014 at 6:09:41 PM permalink
Thanks for the input regarding the name of the game. I happen to like "one buck chuck' because it invokes both the classic name "chuck-a-luck", as well as pragmatic platform that all bets on the layout are for $1 only. Good call.

Now...is this a smart wager strategy, specifically making all bets $1, both low h/e as well as high h/e? I am thinking that at the end of day, making all bets $1, will encourage more random h/e placements. Thoughts?
MrCasinoGames
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March 3rd, 2014 at 6:14:10 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Those are both good. Maybe also consider

One Buck Chuck (my favorite)
Dollar Dice
Bet the Buck
Bucks for Bonz



How about:
Chuck One Buck or Chuck-A-Buck.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
beachbumbabs
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March 3rd, 2014 at 6:23:17 PM permalink
I think to a certain extent you're solving a problem you don't have. If there's a concern about people betting more than allowed on the high-odds bets, you could simply use a color scheme on the layout, either in the color of the printing and borders, or do a background, that differentiates the $1 only bets from the $1-5 low-odds bets and makes it easier for both the player and the dealer to know which bets go where. That would satisfy a broader base of gamber's desires than just making it $1 across the board, and I think it would make you more money in the long run. You still have a healthy HE even on the lower odds bets, so you'll still make money on those. And you offer the opportunity for $1 players to pepper the layout if they want to.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva1
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March 1st, 2020 at 8:58:16 AM permalink
Good morning.


I know that I've kicked this thing around forever and, I appreciate everyone's input.

First...pic at bottom.

I showed this monstrosity to a few people that used to deal roulette for many years at our events. After making some nice comments about the look and feel of the layout, one person made a comment that made a ton of sense. He said, "I hope you're going to a policeman nearby because you'll need one."

Some background... If you can believe it, many years ago players would simply put a $1 house chip on the various bets on a roulette table. There could be 10 players, with each place $1 bets all over the layout. A chip here, a chip there, times 10! As you can imagine, there were arguments galore with each spin between players claiming that a winning bet belonged to him/her. The way the dealers weaseled out of the argument was to say "we pay the wager, not the person." Or, "Remember your bets because we don't".

Sometimes it got very intense. Typically players simply walked away from the table after only a few spins. Dumb. The real reason the dealers did not want to use unique colored chips was it was a lot more work rakeing and stacking chips with every spin. Dumb 2x.

To me, the solution was quite simple. Have one person spinning the wheel and stacking chips and the other person watching the layout, taking losing bets and then paying winning bets. With that, we incorporated colored chips, the fights ended and players stayed at the table for hours at a time. Duh!

To be honest, I had not thought about this aspect of this new game, however, it has all the making of the issues I described above surrounding our roulette game in the past.

The game is designed to handle about 6 players per side, right and left. Let's say each player places five, $1 bets that's thirty $1 wagers. It is certain that there will be fights as to which bet belongs to which player. Playing with colored roulette chips toally eliminates that issue. However, the only problem with this might be that making payouts could be very slow because you have to pay in the player's color.

The only alternative to colored chips is to position the bet in relation to where the player is standing, just as they do in craps. Payouts would be a breeze in that scenario.

Finally, playing with colored chips will, in my opinion, keep players at the table for longer periods. I could see a player handing over $20 in house chips and we instantly give him/her a stack of 20 say, red roulette chips.

Thoughts?

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/gkRFPyS0/Screen-Shot-2020-02-25-at-7-01-03-PM-page-001.jpg[/img]
Last edited by: Riva1 on Mar 1, 2020
Gialmere
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March 1st, 2020 at 11:54:09 AM permalink
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
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