Riva
Riva
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December 17th, 2013 at 2:10:59 PM permalink
I run a charity game for a local non-profit. It's real money gambling but nowhere near the scale of a small casino, perhaps 50 tables about 20 days per-year (all volunteers). I guess you would call it a "millionaire party" and people can make some nice money.

We own all of our own equipment and tables etc, because all the rental stuff is junk. Plus, it's expensive. We are always replacing layouts and tables so players get a real casino feel at our events. We also are on the lookout for new games to offer because that keeps players coming back.

Was thinking of introducing sic bo to the floor (with shaved payouts, of course) however, I don't think our players will warm up to the game as it has way too many betting spots/options. However, some bets on sic bo intrigued me and I set out to design a new game. I will then pay to have the layout printed and we will build a table for it. Actually, the layout design came out really nice and I think players will instantly understand and warm up to the game.

At the end of the day, this "new" game is simply a "cut and paste" from 3 old games, specifically the old "chuck-a-luck" game, a bet from craps and, a few of the wagers from sic bo. However, a few people who have seen my design have commented "damn, I'd play that at a casino." That got me thinking that there might be some value here beyond our own charity game. Also, I have read the white paper, "The Elements of a Successful Carnival Game"(1) and I believe I meet this criteria to the tee.

Nothing about this game is proprietary. All I have done is to take a few bets from chuck-a-luck, one from craps and a few from sic bo, had a custom layout made to make it look professional and, made a new game, which i will still call chuck-a-luck (on steroids).

Still, it's a brand new game which, to the best of my knowledge, nobody had put these various bets from 3 unique games in this configuration. My question is, how does one go about determining if this idea has value and, I guess the word for it is "patentable?"

Thoughts?

Thank you
jon
jon
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December 17th, 2013 at 3:31:43 PM permalink
It is unlikely to be patentable if you've simply combined a few prior art bets. Then again, sometimes crazy stuff happens at the USPTO so you never know, but I'd give it at best a 1/7 chance of ever being issued. If you have a custom layout you could try for a design patent which you would probably get, albeit this would be much less valuable than a utility patent.
Riva
Riva
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December 17th, 2013 at 4:03:31 PM permalink
Quote: jon

It is unlikely to be patentable if you've simply combined a few prior art bets. Then again, sometimes crazy stuff happens at the USPTO so you never know, but I'd give it at best a 1/7 chance of ever being issued. If you have a custom layout you could try for a design patent which you would probably get, albeit this would be much less valuable than a utility patent.



Thank you for the input.

Perhaps this thing's greatest value is in the casino-party rental business.
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
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December 17th, 2013 at 6:25:25 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Thank you for the input.

Perhaps this thing's greatest value is in the casino-party rental business.



Riva,

jon didn't identify himself, so I don't know if you know this, but he's a patent attorney who specializes in casino games and works with at least one of the busiest and best game creators in the business. I would take what he said as definitive, not just speculative, and I sort of doubt many other people will weigh in now that he has.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 18th, 2013 at 2:46:31 AM permalink
Just out of curiosity how dose this work? People who win money, do they leave with it? do they donate it? how dose all this work?

I have heard stories where people have cheated or APed events like this everything from Fake chips to card counting. How do you protect yourself from this kind of stuff.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Riva
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:13:52 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Just out of curiosity how dose this work? People who win money, do they leave with it? do they donate it? how dose all this work?

I have heard stories where people have cheated or APed events like this everything from Fake chips to card counting. How do you protect yourself from this kind of stuff.



Lots of questions. Let me answer them one at a time...

Yes, it is real gambling however, you have to pull a license from the state. Plus, you are only allowed so many licenses per-year.

Virtually any game that appears in a casino is permitted. However, the house can set its own odds and payouts. That's how the house makes its money, specifically: paying out on normal 1:1 wagers and shaving payouts on the higher prop bets. For example, in roulette, we pay $25 on a number straight up. In blackjack, the house takes ties. remember, it's a charity game.

Rule #1: only management touches cash! Player buy chips (custom made with the school's logo imprinted). Players can not buy chips at the table. They must go to the front desk of buy from a roaming chip seller.

We know exactly how much money is provided to each dealer and how much they win or lose. Plus, we rotate them in and out and to new tables every 30 minutes. There is one pit boss for every 4 tables watching over things.

In Blackjack, we use 8-deck shoes. And, because our dealers are mostly volunteers, we shuffle the decks off to the side and bring them a new pre-shuffled shoe when they burn through the current shoe. In this manner, there is virtually zero down time shuffling cards whereas, if the volunteers shuffled, the table would be down 30%-40% of the night. When you're open for say only 8 hours, you have to make the most of the time you've got.

Players definitely try to cheat but if you put in enough controls and limit wagers and payouts, you can't get hurt too bad. We did have a professional magician take us for $5,000 on roulette in about 20 minutes a few years ago. NOBODY could figure out how he did it but his chip was always on a winning number. He went ballistic when he tried to cash in after 20 minutes when the cashier pointed to the sign that states that winning are limited to $500 tops (state law). Since he was by himself, he had nobody to off his chips to, which is what normally happens when somebody gets real lucky.

We train the dealers thoroughly however, mistakes happen. Failing to collect on a losing bet is the most common. Or, paying on a 24 on BJ (honest). Many of our volunteer dealers have been working the tables for 10-30 years. They love the job and they do it because the money helps the school. Plus, no strangers work the room in any capacity, either in the bank, selling chips, selling beer & popcorn. When you let strangers in, particularly volunteers, that's when the house has a partner.

I am appalled when I go in to other charitable games to see the lack of control and processes. It literally is a license to steal. That doesn't happen at our events and we have never lost money in 35 years of doing them.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:43:12 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

Lots of questions. Let me answer them one at a time...

Yes, it is real gambling however, you have to pull a license from the state. Plus, you are only allowed so many licenses per-year.

Virtually any game that appears in a casino is permitted. However, the house can set its own odds and payouts. That's how the house makes its money, specifically: paying out on normal 1:1 wagers and shaving payouts on the higher prop bets. For example, in roulette, we pay $25 on a number straight up. In blackjack, the house takes ties. remember, it's a charity game.

Rule #1: only management touches cash! Player buy chips (custom made with the school's logo imprinted). Players can not buy chips at the table. They must go to the front desk of buy from a roaming chip seller.

We know exactly how much money is provided to each dealer and how much they win or lose. Plus, we rotate them in and out and to new tables every 30 minutes. There is one pit boss for every 4 tables watching over things.

In Blackjack, we use 8-deck shoes. And, because our dealers are mostly volunteers, we shuffle the decks off to the side and bring them a new pre-shuffled shoe when they burn through the current shoe. In this manner, there is virtually zero down time shuffling cards whereas, if the volunteers shuffled, the table would be down 30%-40% of the night. When you're open for say only 8 hours, you have to make the most of the time you've got.

Players definitely try to cheat but if you put in enough controls and limit wagers and payouts, you can't get hurt too bad. We did have a professional magician take us for $5,000 on roulette in about 20 minutes a few years ago. NOBODY could figure out how he did it but his chip was always on a winning number. He went ballistic when he tried to cash in after 20 minutes when the cashier pointed to the sign that states that winning are limited to $500 tops (state law). Since he was by himself, he had nobody to off his chips to, which is what normally happens when somebody gets real lucky.

We train the dealers thoroughly however, mistakes happen. Failing to collect on a losing bet is the most common. Or, paying on a 24 on BJ (honest). Many of our volunteer dealers have been working the tables for 10-30 years. They love the job and they do it because the money helps the school. Plus, no strangers work the room in any capacity, either in the bank, selling chips, selling beer & popcorn. When you let strangers in, particularly volunteers, that's when the house has a partner.

I am appalled when I go in to other charitable games to see the lack of control and processes. It literally is a license to steal. That doesn't happen at our events and we have never lost money in 35 years of doing them.

Sound fun working on this stuff.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:46:50 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Dween
Dween
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:47:37 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

I am appalled when I go in to other charitable games to see the lack of control and processes. It literally is a license to steal.

This is one of the reasons I have volunteered to be the Blackjack "Pit Boss" at my school/church's charity gaming night. I was tired of seeing sloppy/drunk dealers, incorrect payouts, etc. I have been battling against them for a few years, and still haven't won some of those fights... it seems that some dealers would volunteer because they could have free beer. WHILE DEALING.

I try to put in as much control as I can, and attempt to keep track of what dealers make/lose money so I can figure out why it's happening. Maybe this year I'll go iron-fist and tell them it's my way or the highway for the Blackjack Pit. More work for me, but more control.

Also, your reinvented game reminds me of Bang. It is Beat the Dealer with a field, over/under 7, and Big 6 & 8 bets added on. More action than straight Beat the Dealer. Your game idea sounds interesting, but I'm wondering what Craps bet you would add for a 3-dice game.
-Dween!
Riva
Riva
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December 18th, 2013 at 7:51:38 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Sound fun working on this stuff.



It is fun but still, it's a lot of work. We have one event that takes place in a huge outdoor tent on campus over the 4-day Memorial Day weekend. That one is like a full week of 14 hour days.

I'm semi-retired so I have time to focus on this stuff. My goal is to make the games fun for the players and profitable for the house. The only way to do that is with defined processes and tight controls. Otherwise, you might as well put cash in an envelope, drop it in a basket, and hope it's still there where it reaches the altar.

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