New Game ' How to go from concept to reality' in Las Vegas

Hey Guys,

I have created a new game and yes I know the odds are more than slim of it being successful however I am going to go ahead a try it anyway.

I am currently looking at the process on what needs to take place in order to go from concept and wanted your expert advice on where to go, who to use, what to watch for, and any other advice you have. Together we can create a step by step recommended guide for 'game inventors.'

Here are the steps that I have researched so far:

1. Patent the game
2. Trade Mark the designs, name and logo
3. Testing & certification
4. Apply to the 'Nevada State Gaming Control Board'
5. Manufacture the game (hardware/software etc)
6. Convince a casino to allow you to 'test' the game
7. If the game is more successful than the least successful game then you 'pass' the test.
8. You now negotiate a per table per month contract with the casino and all others.

Of course the truth is that the process is much harder than this and each stage is its own battle in the war of going from concept to reality.

So what is missing from the process and who do you recommend to go to for each stage?

Quote: IGRM

7. If the game is more successful than the least successful game then you 'pass' the test.

Not necessarily. There's a little more to it
than that.

And whats that?

Quote: IGRM

Hey Guys,

I have created a new game and yes I know the odds are more than slim of it being successful however I am going to go ahead a try it anyway.

I am currently looking at the process on what needs to take place in order to go from concept and wanted your expert advice on where to go, who to use, what to watch for, and any other advice you have. Together we can create a step by step recommended guide for 'game inventors.'

Here are the steps that I have researched so far:

1. Patent the game
2. Trade Mark the designs, name and logo
3. Testing & certification
4. Apply to the 'Nevada State Gaming Control Board'
5. Manufacture the game (hardware/software etc)
6. Convince a casino to allow you to 'test' the game
7. If the game is more successful than the least successful game then you 'pass' the test.
8. You now negotiate a per table per month contract with the casino and all others.

Of course the truth is that the process is much harder than this and each stage is its own battle in the war of going from concept to reality.

So what is missing from the process and who do you recommend to go to for each stage?

I would suggest you do one or more of the following:

1. Go to Amazon.com and buy Dr. Eliot Jacobson's book about designing a casino game. It's very good, and worked well for me. Follow it closely. His website is also a wealth of information on games and protecting them.
2. While you're waiting for Amazon to ship, go to youtube.com and search for Wizard of Odds interview with Dan Lubin. They outline every step in order and make recommendations.
3. Read a bunch of the forum here, especially this Game Inventor's topic's threads, and figure out who to PM and ask for help or offer to hire. There are several professional mathematicians, several game designers, many programmers, and other wise and experienced enthusiasts who will either be the right people or help you find them.
4. Bring your strengths to this forum (not just this topic) and contribute interesting posts where you can; people on here are more likely to respond to your questions and be helpful if you build a presence, where they know you a little and want to work with you. You should know something about the people you ask to work with you from their posts before you approach them as well, if possible. All of my professional help and friendly advice came from here, and my game is much better than it would have been without them.

Quote: IGRM

Hey Guys,

I have created a new game and yes I know the odds are more than slim of it being successful however I am going to go ahead a try it anyway.



So what is missing from the process and who do you recommend to go to for each stage?

What's missing is your preparation of cash, $$$. Or make sure you have a financier. get about $10,000 ready at least. The further you do, the more you need.

I am about $9,800 short. Anyone want to invest ?

Buzzard, If IGRM has a better game, most likely, invest you $200 to his / her game. Actually, he will be needing more within 2 months. This is a rich men's hobby.

Nah, gotta have money to file provisional patent and list 3 or 4 games on one. Some in industry swear it will work ?
What the hell choice do I have anyway ? LOL

Quote: IGRM

5. Manufacture the game (hardware/software etc)

This tells me you're looking at an EGM, and that means you need a manufacturer's license. Are you aware of the costs to become a licensed EGM manufacturer in Nevada?

If it's more than $200, I am locked out, that's for sure.

Quote: IGRM

1. Patent the game
2. Trade Mark the designs, name and logo
3. Testing & certification
4. Apply to the 'Nevada State Gaming Control Board'
5. Manufacture the game (hardware/software etc)
6. Convince a casino to allow you to 'test' the game
7. If the game is more successful than the least successful game then you 'pass' the test.
8. You now negotiate a per table per month contract with the casino and all others.

You left out getting a math analysis, unless that is what you meant by "testing & certification." I would recommend getting the math analysis first, before applying for a patent. Math isn't required for a patent, but I think doing math first is good practice because the math report may tell you that the game isn't viable as you originally envisioned it and thus you may need to adjust the rules. I also wouldn't worry so much about the trademark until you actually have a field trial or company to license to, after all they may prefer a different name altogether.

1. Order it
2. Great video, highly recommend it
3. Will it be expensive to hire? If so do you know what the going rates are?
4. Thank you for your all your advice, I will start giving any useful information that I come across to other inventors (how little that maybe so far). I have never seen an industry connected and sharing information in this way, truly lucky to come across it.

I have spent $12,500 so far on patent and mathematics.

I have $12,500 left in my budget, however, after reading other posts I see that it maybe a naive figure.

So far people have written that it can cost anywhere from $50,000 - $250,000.

Thanks your help.

I wish that I had the capital to do something like that.

I was looking to have an existing manufacture create everything that the casino needs.

For online gaming I was looking at working with a software company e.g. playtech to create and distribute the game.

Is that even realistic what I wrote or is there a better route?

Hi Jon,

Yes that is what I meant by testing and certification.

I initially did the math first myself and then found out that I needed it do be done by someone else so I used BMM Test labs.

'wouldn't worry so much about the trademark until you actually have a field trial or company to license to, after all they may prefer a different name altogether.'

What about copy-writing the designs?

Thanks for you advice.

If you search around first AND for patent, writing certain portion on your own, the price could be lower than $2,000; the math could be done for less than $2,500, but the certification costs $6,000 to $8,000. Then the traveling and paying the government's fees....

Quote: IGRM

I have spent $12,500 so far on patent and mathematics.

I have $12,500 left in my budget, however, after reading other posts I see that it maybe a naive figure.

So far people have written that it can cost anywhere from $50,000 - $250,000.

Thanks your help.

If you have $12,500 left in your budget AFTER a patent filing and BMM - "official math lab report" - you're golden.
$3,000 for NV gaming submission, $2k for Washington state, a lot left for suits and shoes.
Go and sell!

The costs keep rising, what do you mean by certification?

Do you mean from the gaming commission or is there another hidden expense waiting to surprise me?

Quote: IGRM

The costs keep rising, what do you mean by certification?

Do you mean from the gaming commission or is there another hidden expense waiting to surprise me?

BMM is a certified lab for just about all states like GLI.
Once you're approved in a state, you're approved. Go and sell.
Some states - like Washington - require your company to also be an approved supplier or distributor.
You'll have enough surprise business and legal expenses just as a business.

Do you think I should wait till I have tested before I pay to be approved by Washington? Or go straight for it?

Wait. You have to get approved as a company first in WA.
And if you aren't 100% sure of the game (in the sense it might need adjustment, etc.), then get a "below the radar" install, where, if it needs to be re-worked, it doesn't get a public black eye.

Thanks for your advice.

It is a very simple side bet and follows the same rules as the original game. So no reworking needed unless the casino wants the game to become more complicated which I don't think they will.

Quote: Paigowdan

If you have $12,500 left in your budget AFTER a patent filing and BMM - "official math lab report" - you're golden.
$3,000 for NV gaming submission, $2k for Washington state, a lot left for suits and shoes.
Go and sell!

Paigowdan is right. Unless your game requires specialized equipment, you have plenty left in your budget to (a) tighten up and pitch your idea to operators and/or distributors to test its appeal, and if you get a 'green light,' (b) invest further in licensing and travel/promotional costs for at least one jurisdiction. If you're typical, though, the new developer learning costs will triple what you actually need to spend UNLESS you talk and listen to the 'pros' before proceeding to each new step in the process.

You are way ahead of the game, IGRM, by reaching out on this forum; the experts are here, whether you need IP, math, game design, or opinions from table game managers and executives, decision-makers at the major distributors, or input and game evaluation from experienced players.

If I had done in the beginning what you are doing now, I could have trimmed my 'learning curve' costs by at least two-thirds.

GOOD LUCK ... and have FUN!

Just a question. How long ago did you file for a patent or has it been approved ? Just asking.

Quote: Lucky

... the experts are here, whether you need IP, math, game design, or opinions from table game managers and executives, decision-makers at the major distributors, or input and game evaluation from experienced players.

I failed to include in the 'expert' list the inventors/developers who are here, all of whom are experienced players and some who fall in another category as well, including patent attorney, mathematician, casino dealer/manager/executive, and distributor manager/executive.

Thanks to the Wizard for hosting this forum, and all the participating members who make it work!

Quote: IGRM

1. Order it
2. Great video, highly recommend it
3. Will it be expensive to hire? If so do you know what the going rates are?
4. Thank you for your all your advice, I will start giving any useful information that I come across to other inventors (how little that maybe so far). I have never seen an industry connected and sharing information in this way, truly lucky to come across it.

You're further along than I thought from your initial post; sounds like you're getting it right from what else you've said here. I would think you are ready to talk to distributors, get feedback, maybe make a sale there right now. They are very helpful with expert opinions and guidance, whether they buy your game or not. You have patent protection of whatever sort you've filed, so you should be able to be specific about what you're showing.

Regarding 3, in my limited experience so far, many of the experienced people on here will consult with you at least initally, if not the whole way, for free, but at a minimum will give you an accurate idea of what they can do for you and how much it will cost. I don't think it would be unwelcome if you PM'd them or asked in public for people with particular expertise to PM you and begin a conversation. In a couple of cases, I reached out to them, asked for an overview/analysis of what I had, offering their going rate not to exceed a couple of hours, in order to start the process without a blind commitment of dollars. I ended up hiring both once I knew what I was getting into and what they had to offer. I also had people willing to work on spec, which is a very positive way to go forward with limited funds, and part of what's great about this site; you get a lot of people who enjoy what they do and are very good at it, so they're interested in seeing what's coming and helping to further it along.

These are the screen names of people I've consulted with, had recommended to me, or have in my notes as apparent experts in their fields. Some are no longer accepting new clients or practicing experts in a particular field, though they have the skills. They'll each have to speak for themselves. My list is by no means all-inclusive, either by name or skill; just what I've picked up in a few months. Before you contact any of them, I suggest you look them up by member name, and via their profile go read their threads and/or posts to get some idea of who they are and what their level of expertise is, as I've listed them in no particular order on purpose.

Patent attorneys specializing in gaming: RNewman, jon

Game inventors: Wizard, Switch, Pacman, PaiGowDan, Paradigm, Lucky, DJTeddyBear, Buzzard, teliot, MathExtremist, MrCasinoGames, MrSuit31

Game protection: teliot, CRMousseau, Face

Game mathematicians: Wizard, CrystalMath, CRMousseau, MathExtremist, miplet, mustangsally

Distributors: PaiGowDan, Pacman

Software developers: binary128, MathExtemist (there are many on here, from what I can tell, but I am just beginning to learn about this side of it; been concentrating on the B&M version of my game)

Casino executives: Zcore13, Casinoboss, Tomspur

There are more in every category on here, but I haven't read or interacted with them enough to identify in which areas they can assist you. Other people are free to add to my list or correct it, especially if I've misattributed anything to anybody. And, as I said, some no longer work with beginning game designers, though their past posts and achievements were in that area.

Hope you find this helpful. It took me months of sorting out who was who, and second and third hand recommendations, to get this far.

" Game inventors: Wizard, Switch, Pacman, PaiGowDan, Paradigm, Lucky, DJTeddyBear, BUZZARD, teliot, MathExtremist, MrCasinoGames, MrSuit31.

You sure know how to hurt a man, darling. What if someone took my name as a serious placement among those talents ?

Gee, the divorce is final. Go find someone else to taunt.

Quote: Buzzard

" Game inventors: Wizard, Switch, Pacman, PaiGowDan, Paradigm, Lucky, DJTeddyBear, BUZZARD, teliot, MathExtremist, MrCasinoGames, MrSuit31.

You sure know how to hurt a man, darling. What if someone took my name as a serious placement among those talents ?

Gee, the divorce is final. Go find someone else to taunt.

See, that's exactly why I put them in no particular order. You have shared many important pieces of information about this process with me because you're years down the road at whatever level of success you've achieved, and I'm respecting your contributions to my knowledge of how things get done. Your help has been invaluable. So I listed you. You're only throwing yourself under the bus here, doll.

Edit: And he's new, so I'm telling him here this is your way of joking (the divorce thing).

Quote: Lucky

Paigowdan is right. Unless your game requires specialized equipment, you have plenty left in your budget to (a) tighten up and pitch your idea to operators and/or distributors to test its appeal, and if you get a 'green light,' (b) invest further in licensing and travel/promotional costs for at least one jurisdiction. If you're typical, though, the new developer learning costs will triple what you actually need to spend UNLESS you talk and listen to the 'pros' before proceeding to each new step in the process.

You are way ahead of the game, IGRM, by reaching out on this forum; the experts are here, whether you need IP, math, game design, or opinions from table game managers and executives, decision-makers at the major distributors, or input and game evaluation from experienced players.

If I had done in the beginning what you are doing now, I could have trimmed my 'learning curve' costs by at least two-thirds.

GOOD LUCK ... and have FUN!

Thank you for your advice, I don't have the luxury of an expensive learning curve so the more help I can get the better.

Do the people on this forum ever meet up or anonymity key?

Quote: Buzzard

Just a question. How long ago did you file for a patent or has it been approved ? Just asking.

Hi Buzzard,

I flied for the patent 1 year ago and waiting for it to be approved. Judging by what variations have been patented on the same game over the years and recently I don't think that it will be such an issue.

" Edit: And he's new, so I'm telling him here this is your way of joking (the divorce thing). "

That's it's darling. Just pretend it never happened. Now go return the wedding gifts to our friends. GRRRRRRR.

I laugh as much as I learn on these forums, great people, great personalities!

Have you thought about a trip to the colonies ? Like maybe for G2E next year and the WOV convention. I am not in the mug shot for this years Convention. But last year I was described by Evenbob as the fireplug on the extreme left. Of course, you may need to bring an interpeter as we speak a different form of English here. Especially if like Geoff, you want Peeking DOOK for dinner

Quote: IGRM

Hi Buzzard,

I flied for the patent 1 year ago and waiting for it to be approved. Judging by what variations have been patented on the same game over the years and recently I don't think that it will be such an issue.

since you have filed for the Utility Patent (I assume) about one year ago, I think it's safe for you to disclose the nature of your game, so people could comment on it. (well, lawyers in the forum could comment on this.) Actually, U are further ahead than the thread title suggested. My earlier comments were jumping the gun.

Quote: IGRM

Do the people on this forum ever meet up or anonymity key?

Yes. We meet at annual events like G2E and Raving, and other places if the opportunity presents itself.

Anonymity is key only if you want it to be. Some here are very well-known among the active forum members by their true identity, and I suspect anonymity is important to most only to protect against one's true identity being acquired by someone with ill intent lurking outside the site's membership.

Private messaging (PM) is a good tool to use for one-on-one communications, and though I have used it sparingly, I've never failed to receive a polite response. This is a great group; there is no one I've met personally - either face-to-face or through private communications - that I don't like. REALLY!

" This is a great group; there is no one I've met personally - either face-to-face or through private communications - that I don't like. REALLY! "

Am I the exception that proves the rule ? LOL

Quote: Buzzard

" This is a great group; there is no one I've met personally - either face-to-face or through private communications - that I don't like. REALLY! "

Am I the exception that proves the rule ? LOL

No way, Buzz!

Don't take this the wrong way, but you know you're 'lovable.' :-)

Now if only I could get Babs to say that. Or at least a stipend from ONE FOR THE MONEY !

Quote: Buzzard

Now if only I could get Babs to say that. Or at least a stipend from ONE FOR THE MONEY !

A game has to make money before it can pay stipends to anybody, including me. Maybe someday. And, short of pissing Josie off, I am happy to proclaim my love for you, you Baltimore Old-Timer.

Be right back. Gonna check the stalking laws in Colorado.

Quote: beachbumbabs

You're further along than I thought from your initial post; sounds like you're getting it right from what else you've said here. I would think you are ready to talk to distributors, get feedback, maybe make a sale there right now. They are very helpful with expert opinions and guidance, whether they buy your game or not. You have patent protection of whatever sort you've filed, so you should be able to be specific about what you're showing.

Regarding 3, in my limited experience so far, many of the experienced people on here will consult with you at least initally, if not the whole way, for free, but at a minimum will give you an accurate idea of what they can do for you and how much it will cost. I don't think it would be unwelcome if you PM'd them or asked in public for people with particular expertise to PM you and begin a conversation. In a couple of cases, I reached out to them, asked for an overview/analysis of what I had, offering their going rate not to exceed a couple of hours, in order to start the process without a blind commitment of dollars. I ended up hiring both once I knew what I was getting into and what they had to offer. I also had people willing to work on spec, which is a very positive way to go forward with limited funds, and part of what's great about this site; you get a lot of people who enjoy what they do and are very good at it, so they're interested in seeing what's coming and helping to further it along.

These are the screen names of people I've consulted with, had recommended to me, or have in my notes as apparent experts in their fields. Some are no longer accepting new clients or practicing experts in a particular field, though they have the skills. They'll each have to speak for themselves. My list is by no means all-inclusive, either by name or skill; just what I've picked up in a few months. Before you contact any of them, I suggest you look them up by member name, and via their profile go read their threads and/or posts to get some idea of who they are and what their level of expertise is, as I've listed them in no particular order on purpose.

Patent attorneys specializing in gaming: RNewman, jon

Game inventors: Wizard, Switch, Pacman, PaiGowDan, Paradigm, Lucky, DJTeddyBear, Buzzard, teliot, MathExtremist, MrCasinoGames, MrSuit31

Game protection: teliot, CRMousseau, Face

Game mathematicians: Wizard, CrystalMath, CRMousseau, MathExtremist, miplet, mustangsally

Distributors: PaiGowDan, Pacman

Software developers: binary128, MathExtemist (there are many on here, from what I can tell, but I am just beginning to learn about this side of it; been concentrating on the B&M version of my game)

Casino executives: Zcore13, Casinoboss, Tomspur

There are more in every category on here, but I haven't read or interacted with them enough to identify in which areas they can assist you. Other people are free to add to my list or correct it, especially if I've misattributed anything to anybody. And, as I said, some no longer work with beginning game designers, though their past posts and achievements were in that area.

Hope you find this helpful. It took me months of sorting out who was who, and second and third hand recommendations, to get this far.

Thank you so much for the detailed list. I have a meeting with Playtech about potentially working with them to get it online. Whats your feedback on them and do you think I should have a NDA agreement with the or will my patent-pending be enough?

Quote: Buzzard

Have you thought about a trip to the colonies ? Like maybe for G2E next year and the WOV convention. I am not in the mug shot for this years Convention. But last year I was described by Evenbob as the fireplug on the extreme left. Of course, you may need to bring an interpeter as we speak a different form of English here. Especially if like Geoff, you want Peeking DOOK for dinner

G2E next year 100% already need an interpreter, English man in New York (not the posh kind, from Manchester)

Quote: IGRM

Thank you so much for the detailed list. I have a meeting with Playtech about potentially working with them to get it online. Whats your feedback on them and do you think I should have a NDA agreement with the or will my patent-pending be enough?

Playtech is on my list of recommended distributors also; I wish you the very best of luck in your meeting.

It's been my (limited) experience with distributors that most would not sign an NDA, and in fact wanted a waiver to let you into the building because of what else you will see. I can't speak for Playtech on that. I would strongly suggest you visit with a patent attorney for a professional opinion about how well your game design is protected by your filed paperwork before you see a distributor, if you haven't already. If you use one of the US guys I mentioned, they specialize in game design and the bonus of that is they will have seen things not yet published as well as most of what's out there and will probably know if you've competition or infringement issues just by looking. The US attorneys themselves are constrained by a certain amount of attorney-client privilege even before you've retained them, so you should be safe in consulting, but they can advise you better - I'm just learning myself. Whether you should be concerned about NDA's pretty much relies on 3 points;

1. whether your game is completely new or derivative of something else
2. whether a patent search will turn up prior art on which you infringe
3. what's in the wind about each distributor you're going to see - rumors can be false, and there are strong feelings out there, but you will want background on anybody you go to, especially their history in the marketplace, how they treat their inventors, what games they have out there and how they are presented, failed games and why they failed. That's part of why this site is golden; you want to search the names of distributors you're interested in and see what's gotten reported here about each of them, if anything. There are also several on-line industry journals that report on such things, and the Las Vegas RJ and Las Vegas Sun newspapers do a lot of industry reporting as well. And there are several websites like this one, with industry people discussing these things, but even more specifically; if your game is a blackjack sidebet, for example, look for blackjack-specific sites. The guys here can probably give you more specific addresses depending on your game.

It's a very competitive area here in the states, and a lot of the information's considered proprietary, but read enough and you'll get an idea of where you want to show your game.

You've learned fast, Babs!

Quote: Lucky

You've learned fast, Babs!

This is what government sequestering will do to a person; hired, defunded, not allowed to work elsewhere pending restoration of money, get a little idea and spend a thousand hours on it in 6 months speed-learning about a whole new industry. Still sequestered out of a job, but having a riot doing something interesting and fun, meeting amazing, talented, smart people everywhere. My very best wishes to you and Michael at Raving, Lucky; bring home the Gold!

Quote: beachbumbabs

This is what government sequestering will do to a person; hired, defunded, not allowed to work elsewhere pending restoration of money, get a little idea and spend a thousand hours on it in 6 months speed-learning about a whole new industry. Still sequestered out of a job, but having a riot doing something interesting and fun, meeting amazing, talented, smart people everywhere. My very best wishes to you and Michael at Raving, Lucky; bring home the Gold!

Making lemonade out of lemons ... I like it, Babs! And thanks for the well wishes.

Quote: IGRM

Thank you so much for the detailed list. I have a meeting with Playtech about potentially working with them to get it online. Whats your feedback on them and do you think I should have a NDA agreement with the or will my patent-pending be enough?

My personal advice is to be very wary when dealing with them. They are very aggressive and will tie your game up as much as they can if they are able to. I would suggest talking to an experienced professional if you are close to working out some form of deal with them.

I'm not sure if Playtech are aiming for the US market either due to a number of factors.

Quote: Switch

My personal advice is to be very wary when dealing with them. They are very aggressive and will tie your game up as much as they can if they are able to. I would suggest talking to an experienced professional if you are close to working out some form of deal with them.

I'm not sure if Playtech are aiming for the US market either due to a number of factors.

IGRM,

Anything that Switch says, you should completely listen to, please, over anything I say. I'm new to it, he's among the top in the world.

Switch,

Really appreciate your contributing to this thread.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Anything that Switch says, you should completely listen to, please, over anything I say. I'm new to it, he's among the top in the world.

Amen to that! My sentiments exactly.

That was an affirmation of your compliment to Switch, not at all to detract from the wisdom you acquired so quickly, Babs. In fact, that statement only serves to confirm my earlier comment that "you learn fast!'