beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 8:37:58 AM permalink
It is Friday, October 25: I owe this forum a thread.

I would respectfully request that, before you start reading, you get a deck of cards and some chips and deal the game to yourself while examining my information; there is a big difference between reading it and playing it.

I am going to provide the step-by-step instructions on how to play the game first, and try to answer questions as they come up, checking in every few hours to see if there are any new ones. I think it might be more fun to see what you do and don't like, and do and don't figure out before I post any math or other background information. After you've had a chance to see things for yourself, there is more material that may be posted in support of particular questions or comments.

Have at it: I am taking nothing personally. I may take your advice, I may not; but I appreciate the opportunity to learn and improve my product. Regardless, this forum, both collectively and about a dozen individuals in particular, is entirely responsible for providing the resources, examples, and exemplary people that made my first game a reality. I owe an enormous debt to Michael Shackleford for creating and continuing to support both the forum and his gaming websites.

Please do not consider it spam if I am posting sequentially; I am breaking the thread up into sections for easier scrutiny and critique of various aspects. I would also ask that you quote whatever it is you're talking about for my clarity. Thanks!
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Buzzard
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October 25th, 2013 at 8:56:36 AM permalink
This should be interesting.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 8:59:33 AM permalink
Equipment requirements, mechanics, and initial set-up
Physical requirements for the game:
• One blackjack table/carnival table base for 36” x 72” felt
• 7 player’s chairs
• Dealer’s chip till
• Discard bin
• Drop box
• Game felt
• One to six decks of cards as appropriate
Optional installation components:
• Card shoe
• Automatic shuffler
• Electronic jackpot system
• Table signage, whether electronic, lighted, or static
Set-up rules per deal:
• One standard 52 card deck, no jokers. Multi-deck deal may be used.
• Distribution of initial cards and order of play moves from dealer’s left to right, always starting with player 1, ending in front of dealer.
• Card rankings: Ace lowest, then in order, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Jack, Queen, King highest, regardless of suit.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 9:26:59 AM permalink
Step-by-step game play (please open OftM for the prototype felt.)

One for the Money TM (c)2013 Walton Consulting Service. Patent Pending.


1. Player places ante bet (ante circle) as dealer takes cards from shuffler and loads dealer shoe.

2. Dealer deals 1 card per player face down left to right, last fills house layout slots in circular order with 1 card each, face down.

3. All players may look at their hand. Player 1 acts first. If standing, Player places card in white outline at their position.

4. Player may either raise their bet (raise circle) 1x the ante bet, or stand on original ante bet.

5. If player is not standing, player places a second bet 1x ante (trade circle), and their dealt card on the game information crescent.

6. Dealer takes player’s trade card and places it in discard bin, then provides new card from dummy.

7. Player looks at their new card and either stands or raises 1x ante.

8. Dealer repeats steps 5-6 for each player trading in turn.

9. After all player bets are resolved, dealer exposes board layout cards. Dealer moves the higher of 2 cards to Play slot but leaves the other card face up. The lower dealer card is only used when evaluating the Pairs Plus bet if it is present (not on this felt, but shown on the video).

10. Dealer exposes player hands onto crescent in front of each player and resolves bets one by one, from dealer’s right to left. Dealer pays 1:1 to all ante, raise and trade bets for hands higher than highest house card, removes all base game bets for lower cards, and pushes ties. Exception: When the player wins the hand with a 5 or less, a low-odds win paytable, configurable to the desired HE, may be used to pay all of that player's bets in multiple units.

11. Dealer sweeps player cards off table, adds house hand, gathers deck and places cards in shuffler.

please also see shipwreck video for a video of how it goes (TURN DOWN YOUR SOUND: WE ARE AMATEUR VIDEOGRAPHERS). The video is of a variation we built called "Shipwreck Gold" that demonstrates the base game in play (step by step is slightly different; in that game, if you trade, you indicate which of the two dealer's cards you are stealing). You can also reach this video through the waltonconsultingservice.com site above if it does not load directly from here for you.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
MathExtremist
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October 25th, 2013 at 9:48:45 AM permalink
Is that your pitch? If so, it needs some major tightening.

From what I can tell, your game is War, except:
1) The player can either stand, double, or draw (and if drawing, then optionally double), and
2) The player has to beat two dealer cards instead of just one.

Is that right? You need to be able to explain your new game in 30 seconds...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 10:07:12 AM permalink
ME,

As I mentioned in the beginning, since this is a math and game inventor's forum, I provided the step-by-step for your analysis and fun. There is a pitch, a marketing document, 2 math reports, a vulnerability analysis, several game calculators, a few abstracts, print advertising, logos, etc. If you would like the pitch, here it is as it will be published in Casino Journal, November 2013 issue:

One for the Money (the base game) and Shipwreck Gold (variation example) are one card poker games with a triple decision point, where all bets are optional, the player never folds, and the dealer always qualifies. Designed for the beginning to intermediate player, the games feature fun and sociable action, a low house edge, and quick hand turnover for a healthy drop. The bet progression is natural and intuitive, players easily grasp the concept, and the layouts and procedures are optimized for dealer efficiency and game protection. The base game supports a variety of configurations, sidebets, and jackpot progressives.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 10:10:27 AM permalink
I was hoping to see 'the object of the game is to'.. somewhere in one of your posts. Maybe it was and I totally missed it.
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 10:15:10 AM permalink
Alan,

This is from the marketing brochure. It is a slightly longer version of the CJ blurb (we were only allowed 100 words).

ONE FOR THE MONEY is a one card poker game with a triple decision point, where the player never folds and dealer always qualifies. This game is designed to be dealt for the beginning to intermediate table player, with fun and quick action, a low house edge to retain players, and quick hand turnover for a healthy drop. The bet progression is natural and intuitive, players easily grasp the concept, and the layout and procedures have been optimized for dealer efficiency and game protection.

Staged on a blackjack base for up to seven players, the game uses one standard 52 card deck. Player is dealt one card; the house is dealt two. Player may stand, raise 1x, or match their ante bet to blindly buy a new hand from the dummy. Player may also raise 1x on the new card. Dealer exposes the two house cards and plays the best overall card regardless of value. All winning bets are paid on a 1:1 ratio. Losing bets are collected, and ties are pushed. Low-odds wins of 5 or less may be paid in multiple units at a configurable house edge. An optional Pairs Plus bet, using standard pay tables, may be offered. The Pairs Plus hand is formed from the dealer’s two cards and each player’s one card in turn. Dealer training videos and/or live instruction by the game designers are available upon request.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 10:24:31 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Alan,

This is from the marketing brochure. It is a slightly longer version of the CJ blurb (we were only allowed 100 words).

ONE FOR THE MONEY is a one card poker game with a triple decision point, where the player never folds and dealer always qualifies. This game is designed to be dealt for the beginning to intermediate table player, with fun and quick action, a low house edge to retain players, and quick hand turnover for a healthy drop. The bet progression is natural and intuitive, players easily grasp the concept, and the layout and procedures have been optimized for dealer efficiency and game protection.

Staged on a blackjack base for up to seven players, the game uses one standard 52 card deck. Player is dealt one card; the house is dealt two. Player may stand, raise 1x, or match their ante bet to blindly buy a new hand from the dummy. Player may also raise 1x on the new card. Dealer exposes the two house cards and plays the best overall card regardless of value. All winning bets are paid on a 1:1 ratio. Losing bets are collected, and ties are pushed. Low-odds wins of 5 or less may be paid in multiple units at a configurable house edge. An optional Pairs Plus bet, using standard pay tables, may be offered. The Pairs Plus hand is formed from the dealer’s two cards and each player’s one card in turn. Dealer training videos and/or live instruction by the game designers are available upon request.



Thank you. I watched the video.
MathExtremist
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October 25th, 2013 at 10:58:11 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Staged on a blackjack base for up to seven players, the game uses one standard 52 card deck. Player is dealt one card; the house is dealt two. Player may stand, raise 1x, or match their ante bet to blindly buy a new hand from the dummy. Player may also raise 1x on the new card. Dealer exposes the two house cards and plays the best overall card regardless of value. All winning bets are paid on a 1:1 ratio. Losing bets are collected, and ties are pushed. Low-odds wins of 5 or less may be paid in multiple units at a configurable house edge. An optional Pairs Plus bet, using standard pay tables, may be offered. The Pairs Plus hand is formed from the dealer’s two cards and each player’s one card in turn. Dealer training videos and/or live instruction by the game designers are available upon request.


Okay, this is closer to a succinct description of the game. But you're using non-pit lingo, like "dummy," and I'd avoid that. Tell me if I have this right:

1) It's a game of highest card wins, but you only get one while the dealer gets two.
2) Your initial bet buys one card. After seeing your card, you can stand, raise 1x, or bet 1x to replace your card.
3) After replacing, you can stand or raise 1x. Therefore, the maximum spend on the game is 3 bets: initial bet, replacement bet, post-draw raise.
4) All player bets, regardless of how many, are paid at even money if the player's single card beats both dealer cards. If the player's card is equal to the higher of the dealer's cards, the bets push. If one or both dealer cards outrank the player's card, the bets lose.
4a) Exception: to fiddle with the odds, if the player wins holding a 5 or less, the winning bets may pay more than even money.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 11:01:57 AM permalink
I have a question. Does the player only get one shot at replacing their originally dealt card? For example. On the deal, I get dealt a 3 (which sucks) and I put my money up to get a replacement and that replacement is a 2(which sucks worse) can I put some more money up for another replacement?
wudged
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October 25th, 2013 at 11:14:09 AM permalink
One change I would make is that ace is high and not low. This will confuse many players who will keep the ace instead of discarding it.

Although his point/question is still valid, Alan already gave an example using the 3 and 2, disregarding that A is actually the lowest.
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 11:18:01 AM permalink
That's a good point. In my own mind by default I think of an Ace as a high card, hence my 3 and 2 example and although I read the whole post, I still couldn't get myself to think of the Ace as a low card..wow!! Otherwise I would have used Ace and 2.
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 11:46:41 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Okay, this is closer to a succinct description of the game. But you're using non-pit lingo, like "dummy," and I'd avoid that.



I took "dummy" to be exactly pit-lingo for the remainder of the deck from other publications on here written by at least one dealer; I would appreciate the correct word for that since that's wrong and I don't deal. Me, I call it "the top of the deck".

Quote: MathExtremist

Tell me if I have this right:

1) It's a game of highest card wins, but you only get one while the dealer gets two.
2) Your initial bet buys one card. After seeing your card, you can stand, raise 1x, or bet 1x to replace your card.
3) After replacing, you can stand or raise 1x. Therefore, the maximum spend on the game is 3 bets: initial bet, replacement bet, post-draw raise.
4) All player bets, regardless of how many, are paid at even money if the player's single card beats both dealer cards. If the player's card is equal to the higher of the dealer's cards, the bets push. If one or both dealer cards outrank the player's card, the bets lose.
4a) Exception: to fiddle with the odds, if the player wins holding a 5 or less, the winning bets may pay more than even money.



1 2 3 are exactly correct. 1 is where the HE comes from; the dealer ALWAYS uses the higher of 2 cards, where if you draw, you are blindly buying a (hopefully) better card that may not be. That is counterbalanced in part by you knowingly raising on a good card, even after a swap, where there's +ev, part by you only having 1 bet in the game on a middle card that still may win (dampening the cost of winning only if you're willing to raise to stay in, which our game does not force you to do), and partly by even a bad card winning sometimes. The odds refinement narrows that last HE modifier still further through use of an multiplier paytable to a very close game, really to whatever ideal a casino wants for their demographic. This modification just came to me a few days ago (though we have simulated and tested it and it's valid), and has greatly widened the demographic appeal to virtually any gambler who likes really fast-paced even-money games.

4 is a very complicated way of explaining it, but it's factually correct. In practice, the higher card is delineated and the lower ignored unless a bonus bet uses both. The base game only uses the higher one.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 11:48:25 AM permalink
Alan,

Yes, the player only gets one opportunity to trade.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 11:53:10 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Alan,

Yes, the player only gets one opportunity to trade.



That make sense otherwise I'd keep ante'ing up until I got a king ;-)
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 11:54:39 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

One change I would make is that ace is high and not low. This will confuse many players who will keep the ace instead of discarding it.

Although his point/question is still valid, Alan already gave an example using the 3 and 2, disregarding that A is actually the lowest.



wudged,

You are not alone in this preference. It may yet change when the game becomes commercial, but the math is exactly the same; just the rank values change by one when considering optimum strategy.

This game is my casino variant on a family-poker night game that has mostly unprintable names in this PC age. If you look at WoO under the game "Screw Your Neighbor", you will see a very similar version to what I grew up on but will not name on the forum. Kings are high, Aces are low in this game, so we carried that into this version to remain true to the spirit of the other.

I would also note that Ace as a low card is not unique to this game (ie wheel straights, blackjack as 1 count), but your point is well taken.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 11:57:56 AM permalink
Quote: Alan

That's a good point. In my own mind by default I think of an Ace as a high card, hence my 3 and 2 example and although I read the whole post, I still couldn't get myself to think of the Ace as a low card..wow!! Otherwise I would have used Ace and 2.



Noted, thanks!
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Zcore13
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October 25th, 2013 at 12:24:54 PM permalink
I understand the game completely, I just don't see anything that would interest me to play it. No chance for higher payouts. No real player choice other than to hold or trade the single card you are given.

As ME stated, it's has Casino War similarity and you don't see that game anymore. It had a very short life span.

I could see it being placed at a few Casinos for a short time (trial), but never catching on big in my opinion.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 12:44:07 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I understand the game completely, I just don't see anything that would interest me to play it. No chance for higher payouts. No real player choice other than to hold or trade the single card you are given.

As ME stated, it's has Casino War similarity and you don't see that game anymore. It had a very short life span.

I could see it being placed at a few Casinos for a short time (trial), but never catching on big in my opinion.


ZCore13



Fair enough. Thanks for looking.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
tringlomane
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October 25th, 2013 at 12:52:05 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I understand the game completely, I just don't see anything that would interest me to play it. No chance for higher payouts. No real player choice other than to hold or trade the single card you are given.

As ME stated, it's has Casino War similarity and you don't see that game anymore. It had a very short life span.

I could see it being placed at a few Casinos for a short time (trial), but never catching on big in my opinion.


ZCore13



The higher payouts come when you win on 5 or less, but the game hasn't specified how big these payouts are. If you win with a 2, maybe you get 10 to 1 or something? The felts don't have these payouts on them.

Unfortunately, I generally agree with your sentiment though. Watching the video, the port/starboard thing initially lost me. I think it's just declaring which dealer card you wish to take as your new card, but they are terms that will initially make players go...wtf? And wtf from a player is never a good thing.
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 1:20:05 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

The higher payouts come when you win on 5 or less, but the game hasn't specified how big these payouts are. If you win with a 2, maybe you get 10 to 1 or something? The felts don't have these payouts on them.

Unfortunately, I generally agree with your sentiment though. Watching the video, the port/starboard thing initially lost me. I think it's just declaring which dealer card you wish to take as your new card, but they are terms that will initially make players go...wtf? And wtf from a player is never a good thing.



trin,

The payouts are designed as ordered by the customer for their demographics; payout tables for 3CP (3:1 or 4:1 flush), UTH(4:1 or 5:1 straight), and other games are available in different payouts and casinos use what they want; why not my game? One example we're using is, on a 6 deck shoe, a player win with a 5 pays 2:1, 4 pays 2:1, 3 pays 5:1, 2 pays 10:1 on all bets that player made (optimal strategy would be 2 units, ante and trade) for an HE of -1.611 and an EoR of -.801. The felts will have the payouts if the customer wants the payouts on the felts, I would think.

The video was of a variation of the base game. The port/starboard thing isn't important to the base game, where the trade card comes off the top of the deck. However, the base game math is the same in both, and an unseen card is an unseen card. My brother was attached to the pirate theme for a long time, and he shot the video. I posted it to help folks here visualize the movement of the cards, but we're talking about the base game, not any particular variation.

Thanks for your feedback.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Mission146
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October 25th, 2013 at 2:35:52 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

trin,

The payouts are designed as ordered by the customer for their demographics; payout tables for 3CP (3:1 or 4:1 flush), UTH(4:1 or 5:1 straight), and other games are available in different payouts and casinos use what they want; why not my game? One example we're using is, on a 6 deck shoe, a player win with a 5 pays 2:1, 4 pays 2:1, 3 pays 5:1, 2 pays 10:1 on all bets that player made (optimal strategy would be 2 units, ante and trade) for an HE of -1.611 and an EoR of -.801. The felts will have the payouts if the customer wants the payouts on the felts, I would think.



I'm glad to see an example paytable for the win with five or less pays.

Whether Aces are high or low (I prefer high) do you have a paytable for both the player's card and the dealer's cards all being Aces. Given that such would be an extreme rarity, I think it would be pretty cool for that to be the game's top pay.

Either way, I think many people are looking at this and seeing a deceptively simple game, but having trouble getting past the, "Simple," part. It'll be very important for players to realize (i.e. for the distributor/dealers to convey) that this game is a game of skill as much as it is a game of chance, so correct decision-making will be vital.

Overall, I'm going to tentatively say that I like it and would play it. It's on my Top 10 Table Games List, conceptually, here's my new order:

Games I've never played live denoted with *

1.) Craps
2.) Let It Ride
3.) Roulette
4.) Mississippi Stud*
5.) Money$uit 31*
6.) Pai-Gow Poker
7.) Blackjack
8.) One For The Money*
9.) Blackjack Switch*
10.) Scossa*
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
beachbumbabs
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October 25th, 2013 at 2:43:58 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Is that your pitch? If so, it needs some major tightening.

From what I can tell, your game is War, except:
1) The player can either stand, double, or draw (and if drawing, then optionally double), and
2) The player has to beat two dealer cards instead of just one.

Is that right? You need to be able to explain your new game in 30 seconds...



I addressed the marketing criticism in an earlier post, but I'm going to go back and contrast my game with Casino War as you did, because it's a good comparison.

(source for all Casino War factoids: WoO, of course)

One card hand: both
Cards to beat: Casino War: 1. One for the Money: 2. (edited, see below)
Action: on Casino War; ~1 hand in 13. One for the Money: 13 hands in 13. (Passive vs. active for player participation)
Option to double up on a good card: Casino War: 0%. One for the Money: 100%
Option to get rid of a bad card: Casino War: 0% One for the Money: 100%
Opportunity to triple your winnings on a good trade: Casino War: 0% One for the Money: 100%
Ties: Casino War: surrender or 50/50 chance of winning less than your stake (win pushes ante, pays raise) One for the Money: push
Opportunity for multiple unit pay on an unexpected win: Casino War: 0% One for the Money: 5 or below pays custom paytable odds.
House edge: Casino War: 2.06% and up, configured by casino rules and number of decks. One for the Money: .50% (lowest proposed casino paytable; could be lower) and up, configured by paytables and number of decks.
Fold/surrender: Casino War: never folds, does surrenders. One for the Money: never folds, no surrenders.
Dealer must qualify for full pay: neither.
Dealing speed per multideck shoe: 100+ hands per hour for both.
Optimal strategy: War: always go to war. One for the Money: always trade A-6; 7 is nearly a wash but trade with odds pay favored by ~.01-.03% by paytable. Stand on 8-9. Raise 10-K. (Note: for most players 7 is a wash, period, and they can justify a stand if they just want to bet the table minimum. But this is a math forum and I'm trying to be accurate and truthful.)

That's all I can think of at the moment, but I'm hungry and headed out for dinner. If anyone has other specific points for comparison, please post them. I'll check in again later.

EDIT: I had been up for almost 2 days, so I fell out, and this is the last point I read. Aces are now high, the same as War. Added cards to beat.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizard
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October 25th, 2013 at 3:34:07 PM permalink
Here is how I would put the rules.

  1. The game is played with a single 52-card deck.
  2. Cards are ranked as in poker, excepts aces are low.
  3. The object of the game is to have a higher card than the dealer.
  4. After making an Ante wager, the player shall receive one card and the dealer two, face down.
  5. The player has the following options: (1) Call, (2) Double his bet, while staying with his original card, and (3) Double his bet and switch for a new card.
  6. If the player switches cards, then after seeing his new card, he make make an additional wager equal to his Ante bet.
  7. The dealer turns over both his cards and plays the higher of the two. If they are equal in rank, then he may play either one.
  8. Wins pay even money on all bets. A tie results in a push.


Do I have that right?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
tringlomane
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October 25th, 2013 at 3:35:56 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

The felts will have the payouts if the customer wants the payouts on the felts, I would think.



Well, the customer better want them if they want to be in line with most state laws. ;) And looks I made a good guess with 10 to 1 on 2. :D I like the idea of the increased payouts on unlikely wins. Conversely a "bad beat" bonus instead could also accomplish something similar. But payouts would probably be less steep. You want steep payouts on ~rare events to keep players' interest.
MathExtremist
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October 25th, 2013 at 3:43:49 PM permalink
Yes, I think pitching this as an improved, more action-packed version of war is better than calling it a one-card poker game. I'd also make Aces high because Aces are high (or both) in every other casino card game, and your math still holds because you're using 13 different ranks rather than point values like BJ or Bacc.

So I still think you have some tightening to do on that list, but you're getting there. Don't focus on the similarities though, focus just on the improvements. E.g., in War you get stuck with a lousy card but in OftM you can try to improve it. In War you have to stand on a good card but in OftM you can raise. Etc.

But I wouldn't lead with house edge of "as low as 0.5%." That's too low. Lead with 1.5% or so and demonstrate that you can dial it up or down based on the paytable adjustments.

Also, be careful with the speed comparison. War will still be a lot faster than your game. Most of the time in War there are zero decisions. In your game there's always at least one, sometimes as many as three decisions. I'm not saying they aren't quick decisions, but trade/redeal/raise will still happen a fair bit of the time (I'm guessing about 15-20%?) and that requires physical action by both the player and dealer.

In fact, I'd even go so far as to say one of the reasons War washed out is the house edge is way too high for a game that fast (c.f. craps at 35 decisions/hour at 1.41%). If you decrease the edge on your game to 1.5% or 1%, even if you don't have quite the blazing speed, but do have more player interaction, you might hit the sweet spot.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wizard
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October 25th, 2013 at 4:01:43 PM permalink
I tend to oppose comparing this game to War when trying to explain it, as there are too many differences. I'd not compare it to anything.

Regarding the aces, if forced, I would make them high. When I played Screw Your Neighbor, aces were low, but this is also quite a bit different from that game, that I think holding over that rule is not necessary. I'm not sure that many people are familiar with Screw Your Neighbor anyway.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
thecesspit
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October 25th, 2013 at 4:18:24 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is how I would put the rules.

  1. The player may then keep his original card or switch it with the next card in the deck.
  2. If the player switched cards, then he may call or raise by an amount equal to his Ante bet.


Do I have that right?



I thought the switch always cost a unit bet?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Buzzard
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October 25th, 2013 at 4:18:59 PM permalink
ACES MUST BE HIGH !

Besides already stated reasons by IQ's far greater than mine.

If strategy is trade a-6 stand 7-8-9 Raise 10-j-q-k or anything similar.

Then if A is high stand 8-9-10 will allow more mistaken raises, I think ?

Plus playing a beat the dealer game and ACE sucks ? ? ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 4:19:20 PM permalink
My understanding is that it costs an extra bet to switch cards, it's not free, but I could be wrong.
CrystalMath
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October 25th, 2013 at 4:28:51 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit


I thought the switch always cost a unit bet?


Correct. You must place a wager equal to your ante in order to get a new card.
I heart Crystal Math.
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 4:31:48 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Correct. You must place a wager equal to your ante in order to get a new card.



Okay, then that needs to be incorporated into the Wiz's list. I think around number 7.
Wizard
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October 25th, 2013 at 4:47:44 PM permalink
Quote: Alan

My understanding is that it costs an extra bet to switch cards, it's not free, but I could be wrong.



You're right, I knew that but worded it incorrectly. With the option to raise before the switch, isn't it mathematically equivalent to the choice of raising 1x or 2x to switch? I haven't done the math, but it would seem to be foolish to me to raise 2x, since you're getting a random card going against two dealer cards. Maybe the 2x option is just giving the player rope to hang himself, which players will do all the time with new games.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
tringlomane
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October 25th, 2013 at 4:53:36 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You're right, I knew that but worded it incorrectly. With the option to raise before the switch, isn't it mathematically equivalent to the choice of raising 1x or 2x to switch? I haven't done the math, but it would seem to be foolish to me to raise 2x, since you're getting a random card going against two dealer cards. Maybe the 2x option is just giving the player rope to hang himself, which players will do all the time with new games.



So you're suggesting if someone is dealt, say, a 4, they might raise it, and then request a switch after that? Stupid move, but possible I suppose.
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:00:25 PM permalink
There is probably a 'smart' threshold of when you decide to switch or not(I surely don't know what that is). If Ace is low, then maybe somewhere between Ace and King(5 is a good number since it's pretty much in the middle). So, <5 switch, otherwise hang onto your $$ and card and stay and hope for the best?
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:08:05 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

So you're suggesting if someone is dealt, say, a 4, they might raise it, and then request a switch after that? Stupid move, but possible I suppose.



Yes, as I understand the rules, this is an option. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
CrystalMath
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:13:49 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes, as I understand the rules, this is an option. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.


You may not raise then switch, but you may switch, then you have the option to raise when you get the new card.
I heart Crystal Math.
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:19:26 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

You may not raise then switch, but you may switch, then you have the option to raise when you get the new card.



ME said the maximum final bet was three units, and I didn't notice anyone correcting him. How does the player get to three units?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Mission146
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:19:38 PM permalink
BeachBumBabs has already posted the Optimal Strategy:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/15552-one-for-the-money-sup-tm-sup/3/#post282972

Quote:

Optimal strategy: War: always go to war. One for the Money: always trade A-6; 7 is nearly a wash but trade with odds pay favored by ~.01-.03% by paytable. Stand on 8-9. Raise 10-K. (Note: for most players 7 is a wash, period, and they can justify a stand if they just want to bet the table minimum. But this is a math forum and I'm trying to be accurate and truthful.)

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
tringlomane
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:20:17 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

You may not raise then switch, but you may switch, then you have the option to raise when you get the new card.



Reading babs' original rule list again, I concur.
Mission146
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:20:40 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

ME said the maximum final bet was three units, and I didn't notice anyone correcting him. How does the player get to three units?



You must make a bet equal to the Ante bet to switch cards, and then you may Raise the amount of an Ante bet after you have switched cards.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
tringlomane
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:24:51 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

You must make a bet equal to the Ante bet to switch cards, and then you may Raise the amount of an Ante bet after you have switched cards.



Yep, raising after you get a good switch card can lead to 3 bets. Ante + Switching + Raise after switching
CrystalMath
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:26:16 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

ME said the maximum final bet was three units, and I didn't notice anyone correcting him. How does the player get to three units?



1. ante
2. Switch on a low card
3. Receive a good card and place a Raise wager.

If you win, you get paid 1:1 on all 3.
If you received a bad card after the switch, you may still raise, but it is never optimal.
I heart Crystal Math.
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:34:59 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

1. ante
2. Switch on a low card
3. Receive a good card and place a Raise wager.

If you win, you get paid 1:1 on all 3.
If you received a bad card after the switch, you may still raise, but it is never optimal.



But and the big but is, 3. there is no guarantee the the switch card is better than the original one dealt. I guess that's why it's gambling.
Mission146
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:35:14 PM permalink
See? Like I said, deceptively simple.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Alan
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October 25th, 2013 at 5:39:25 PM permalink
I haven't tested that much of the game, but I can tell you that what pisses me off is with BJ, the kill, kill, kill scenario, people(gamblers, at least myself) don't like to get beat to death. With BJ, even playing smart(basic strategy) to get killed sucks big time. Player 20, Dealer 21, Player 19, Dealer 20 wtf, this bites.
Wizard
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October 25th, 2013 at 6:08:44 PM permalink
Here is my new an improved rules.

  1. The game is played with a single 52-card deck.
  2. Cards are ranked as in poker, excepts aces are low.
  3. The object of the game is to have a higher card than the dealer.
  4. After making an Ante wager, the player shall receive one card and the dealer two, face down.
  5. The player has the following options: (1) Call, (2) Double his bet, while staying with his original card, and (3) Double his bet and switch for a new card.
  6. If the player switches cards, then after seeing his new card, he make make an additional wager equal to his Ante bet.
  7. The dealer turns over both his cards and plays the higher of the two. If they are equal in rank, then he may play either one.
  8. Wins pay even money on all bets. A tie results in a push.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ThatDonGuy
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October 25th, 2013 at 6:11:59 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Step-by-step game play:

4. Player may either raise their bet (raise circle) 1x the ante bet, or stand on original ante bet.

5. If player is not standing, player places a second bet 1x ante (trade circle), and their dealt card on the game information crescent.

6. Dealer takes player’s trade card and places it in discard bin, then provides new card from dummy.

7. Player looks at their new card and either stands or raises 1x ante.


The way I am reading this, there are three betting options:
1. Keep your original card (total bet 1)
2. Raise your bet, which results in the card being switched, and then stand (total bet 2)
3. Raise, which gets your card switched, and then raise again (total bet 3)
From the use of the words "new card" in #7, I am assuming that you are not allowed to raise with your original card.
Mission146
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October 25th, 2013 at 6:16:10 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy


From the use of the words "new card" in #7, I am assuming that you are not allowed to raise with your original card.



"New card," just refers to if you took a card. You can raise on your original bet and keep the card you were dealt.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
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