New Table Games at the ICE Feb-2013 London
I would like to see what member of this forum think about them and any feedback.
Raise’em® Blackjack (Patent Pending)
Standard Blackjack rules remain unchanged other than as set out below:
• In addition to the normal doubling, Player may make a Raise-bet after seeing his first card and Dealer’s up-card providing the Player’s card is not an ace (the Raise-bet may not exceed his Original-bet) and will be paid 3 to 2 for blackjack on his Original-bet and Raise-bet if made.
• Player’s 21 beats Dealer’s 21 and Player’s blackjack beats Dealer’s blackjack.
• Double or Split-pairs: Must equal to the Original-bet plus Raise-bet (if made).
• If Dealer has 17 and Player has 17 to 20, the Player’s bets is a Tie.
Raise’em® 3-Card Draw (Patent Pending)
1. Each Player makes an Enter-bet.
2. Each Player receives three cards face down.
3. Each Player must stand with his 3-Card Poker-hand (no additional bets) or exchanging one card by making a Draw-bet either equal to or double his Enter-bet.
4. Based on the Player’s 3-Card Poker-hand the Player’s Enter-bets and Draw-bets will be paid according to the 3-Card Draw Pay-table.
Double-Hit® Roulette (RD Patent Pending)
A Roulette Side-game allowing bets on two consecutive spins of the wheel, where Player bets on a single or two adjacent streets. Player wins if the ball lands on his selected street(s) twice in consecutive spins.
Double-Hit on a single street pays 144 to 1 and Double-Hit on two adjacent streets pays 35 to 1.
Examples of Double-Hit®
Betting Single Street of three numbers (7, 8 and 9).
First spin: the winning number is any of 7, 8 or 9.
Second spin: the winning number is again any of 7, 8 or 9.
Betting Two adjacent streets of six numbers (7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12).
First spin: winning number is any of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12.
Second spin: winning number is again any of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12.
What's the incentive to the player to do this? If he were so inclined, he could easily make a similar traditional bet, then parlay the winnings and end up with the same amount as what your bet pays. So why bother?
What's the incentive to the casino to offer this bet? The house edge is the same as the traditional bet, and introduces something new that the dealer needs to be trained for, and possibly make mistakes when dealing. Additionally, I gotta think it will introduce new methods for cheating. So why should the casino pay you to put this on their floor?
Last, I don't see how the patent you specified applies to this game.
While I wish you luck with it, I don't see it being successful.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesAt the ICE Feb-2013 totally gaming Earls Court exhibition centre, I have shown 3 New Table Games.
I would like to see what member of this forum think about them and any feedback.
Raise’em® Blackjack (Patent Pending)
Standard Blackjack rules remain unchanged other than as set out below:
• In addition to the normal doubling, Player may make a Raise-bet after seeing his first card and Dealer’s up-card providing the Player’s card is not an ace (the Raise-bet may not exceed his Original-bet) and will be paid 3 to 2 for blackjack on his Original-bet and Raise-bet if made.
• Player’s 21 beats Dealer’s 21 and Player’s blackjack beats Dealer’s blackjack.
• Double or Split-pairs: Must equal to the Original-bet plus Raise-bet if made.
• If Dealer has 17 and Player has 17 to 20 the Player’s bets is a Tie.
Raise’em® 3-Card Draw (Patent Pending)
1. Each Player makes an Enter-bet.
2. Each Player receives three cards face down.
3. Each Player must stand with his 3-Card Poker-hand (no additional bets) or exchanging one card by making a Draw-bet either equal to or double his Enter-bet.
4. Based on the Player’s 3-Card Poker-hand the Player’s Enter-bets and Draw-bets will be paid according to the 3-Card Draw Pay-table.
Double-Hit® Roulette (Patent US 7,686,306)
A Roulette Side-game allowing bets on two consecutive spins of the wheel, where Player bets on a single or two adjacent streets. Player wins if the ball lands on his selected street(s) twice in consecutive spins.
Double-Hit on a single street pays 144 to 1 and Double-Hit on two adjacent streets pays 35 to 1.
Examples of Double-Hit®
Betting Single Street of three numbers (7, 8 and 9).
First spin: the winning number is any of 7, 8 or 9.
Second spin: the winning number is again any of 7, 8 or 9.
Betting Two adjacent streets of six numbers (7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12).
First spin: winning number is any of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12.
Second spin: winning number is again any of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12.
Just my personal opinion, but here it is:
Rais'em Blackjack has litle or no chance of making it. Players will hate tying when they have a 17-20 with a dealer 17.
Rais'em Three Card Draw could have a chance depending on the pay table/house edge.
Double Hit Roullette is a tough one. I don't see the benefit over letting your winnings ride on a 2nd bet after winning the first. I don't think it's innovative enough to give it room on the layout and try and get people to play it.
ZCore13
Quote: MrCasinoGamesDouble-Hit® Roulette (Patent US 7,686,306)
A Roulette Side-game allowing bets on two consecutive spins of the wheel, where Player bets on a single or two adjacent streets. Player wins if the ball lands on his selected street(s) twice in consecutive spins.
I don't think you cited the right patent. Your '306 patent has claims directed toward "spinning the roulette wheel and, at the same time, generating a random event via the random generating device."
Quote: Zcore13
Just my personal opinion, but here it is:
Rais'em Blackjack has litle or no chance of making it. Players will hate tying when they have a 17-20 with a dealer 17.
Rais'em Three Card Draw could have a chance depending on the pay table/house edge.
Double Hit Roullette is a tough one. I don't see the benefit over letting your winnings ride on a 2nd bet after winning the first. I don't think it's innovative enough to give it room on the layout and try and get people to play it.
ZCore13
I think the other thing about Rais'em Blackjack is that it would be just as countable (does anyone know the Base HE?) and would provide less variance to the AP, it'd also be very Wongable (Wonging in) with less variance. I obviously don't know an optimal strategy for this game at this point, but I am sure the betting strategy would closely resemble betting half of whatever the AP would normally bet based on the TC and his normal betting spread, and then Raising the other half in a favorable situation.
I don't know about the Roulette Game, you can basically bet in a way that turns Roulette into anything you want it to be just by playing Roulette.
I agree on Rais'em Three Card Draw, I'd definitely play it, depending on the HE. It's kind of like a version of 3CP that doesn't suck.
This sounds a bit like Blackjack attack? I do like the Blackjack games that give you some options or ability to be more strategic, but my struggle is giving time for another potential bet that players generally only make if it is it in their favor. I like it as a player, but it seems like the HE would need to go up a fair amount to offset the slowdown in play?
Raise em 3 card - I like it. I had some similar ideas which is why I posted my questions on what the fine line is with poker variations. It seems this game takes the dealer hand out of the equation, which is probably nice for the dealer. Just like video poker, try to make a good hand.
The push-17 mechanism seems to be patented by another game designer for specifically Blackjack type games, I've seen the game.
Updates on the games.
Raise’em® Blackjack: TCS-Johnhuxley is trying to get it going in South Africa.
Mathematical Analysis = Cindy Liu (House Edge: US/6-Decks 1.08%)
Raise’em® 3-Card Draw: Is now on trial in Ireland.
Mathematical Analysis = Stephen How (House Edge: 2.08%)
Double-Hit® Roulette: Will be at the 2013 TABLE GAMING SHOWCASE UK.
Mathematical Analysis = Stephen How
House Edge on Single 0 Roulette: (Double-Hit® Single-Street pays 144 to 1 (4.67%) (Double-Hit® Two adjacent streets pays 35 to 1 (5.33%)
Will update you gays how the 3 games get on in this forum.
It took a while for me to wrap my head around the higher house edges, but the edge shown is right.
FYI: If the single street would pay 143 to 1, then it would have the same payout as the parlay method, and same edge as the double hit double street bet (which DOES have the same payout as the parlay).
Also, if these bets paid 147 to 1 and 37 to 1, then they'd have the same 2.7% edge as the standard game.
Although I now see where the casino will get the money to pay for the game licensing, I doubt it's enough to make it worth it. There certainly isn't enough for the player to get excited about.
Ah can you update the straights also :>)Quote: MrCasinoGamesThanks for All the Feedback and Inputs.
Updates on the games.
Raise’em® Blackjack: TCS-Johnhuxley is trying to get it going in South Africa.
Mathematical Analysis = Cindy Liu (House Edge: US/6-Decks 1.08%)
Raise’em® 3-Card Draw: Is now on trial in Ireland.
Mathematical Analysis = Stephen How (House Edge: 2.08%)
Double-Hit® Roulette: Will be at the 2013 TABLE GAMING SHOWCASE UK.
Mathematical Analysis = Stephen How
House Edge on Single 0 Roulette: (Double-Hit® Single-Street pays 144 to 1 (4.67%) (Double-Hit® Two adjacent streets pays 35 to 1 (5.33%)
Will update you gays how the 3 games get on in this forum.
Quote: HunterhillAh can you update the straights also :>)Quote: MrCasinoGamesThanks for All the Feedback and Inputs.
Will update you gays how the 3 games get on in this forum.
Sorry, I mean Guys.
Quote: PaigowdanThe push on dealer 22 is a patented game mechanism by Geoff (Switch), and his games are supported/distributed by Shufflemaster, who'll help defend the IP with Switch.
The push-17 mechanism seems to be patented by another game designer for specifically Blackjack type games, I've seen the game.
Right, so do these prevent someone from a push 23 rule or a push 18? It seems there could be endless rules for offsetting a player advantage, so it seems the method of creating the advantage is more unique. What about any 5 card bust? Or a bust with at least one deuce?
It seems like defining a rule for what constitutes a tie should be part of the overall method rather than standing on its own merit? I know switch has the protection, but just playing devils advocate
Quote: 21RevolutionRight, so do these prevent someone from a push 23 rule or a push 18? It seems there could be endless rules for offsetting a player advantage, so it seems the method of creating the advantage is more unique.
Switch, as far as I know, also specified the hands 23-26 in his patent, to close them off as loopholes from copycat game designers.
There could be many (but finite) games rules in table games, as so much can be done with cards and a game specification.
But Most game mechanism patents cover a "related group area" that applies to the game, and don't cover or extend to unrelated game ideas.
Quote: 21RevolutionWhat about any 5 card bust?
Dealer bust hands that are based on length of the busted hand are covered by earlier game designers and their patents. Here's an example.
Quote: 21RevolutionOr a bust with at least one deuce?
Don't know specifically about that, but while busting with a deuce in the dealer hand is possibly a new game idea, it might not be a particularly good new game idea. It also might be countable, as "specific card occurrence" game ideas lend themselves to "negative game protection" through key card tracking.
Do keep in mind that there is a big difference between "patentable" and "salable" products or creations. They don't always correlate.
Quote: 21RevolutionIt seems like defining a rule for what constitutes a tie should be part of the overall method rather than standing on its own merit? I know switch has the protection, but just playing devils advocate
Lawyers are involved as the real advocates. Really needed, too.
Quote: PaigowdanSwitch, as far as I know, also specified the hands 23-26 in his patent, to close them off as loopholes from copycat game designers.
Yes, the patent covers each dealer 'bust' total from 22-26.
I also have a patent that allows a push with a '10=value' card dealer bust. Dan is correct in that certain cards being used can be thwarted by a counting system. However, I have chosen the '10' as that is a 'good' card to a counter and now it will reduce the effectiveness of that card.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13How did Galaxy Gaming use the "push on 22" for their Triple Attack Blackjack game?
ZCore13
As something overlooked, and simply accidentally. A mistake was made.
They just went ahead with it. The patent may have been hidden during production. (This was before they had a full time table games design/research guy doing IP fact-checking.)
Quote: SwitchYes, the patent covers each dealer 'bust' total from 22-26.
I also have a patent that allows a push with a '10=value' card dealer bust. Dan is correct in that certain cards being used can be thwarted by a counting system. However, I have chosen the '10' as that is a 'good' card to a counter and now it will reduce the effectiveness of that card.
Geoff, this is a sharp technique, to "de-key" or balance, the key cards of a game towards a 0 count.
Quote: PaigowdanGeoff, this is a sharp technique, to "de-key" or balance, the key cards of a game towards a 0 count.
Thanks Dan, I also have another patent-pending concept that helps 'neutralize' a deck of cards as well.
Now I just need to find a game to use it on :-)
Quote: PaigowdanAs something overlooked, and simply accidentally. A mistake was made.
They just plowed ahead with it. (This was before they had a full time table games design/research guy doing IP fact-checking.)
So what happens in this case? Does SHFL say stop playing the game, or do they work out an agreement to allow use of the rule?
Do keep in mind that there is a big difference between "patentable" and "salable" products or creations. They don't always correlate.
Hey Dan- I gotta give you credit here. When I'm just tossing out ideas to make a point, you still give some feedback on it :) Looks like Switch is way ahead of us on potential busts that would result in a push. So, if you have a game that requires that kind of rule, it seems there is a good chance that a particular offsetting rule is already patented (this might be the case with MrCasinoGames Raise Em Blackjack?). So then what do you do? You have a fun game providing player advantage, but no way to offset it? Or do you need to pull in that inventor to join forces with you?
Quote: 21RevolutionSo what happens in this case? Does SHFL say stop playing the game, or do they work out an agreement to allow use of the rule?
In this case it was Galaxy, and the game is being re-worked with a different mechanism, and will be re-introduced later. No biggie.
Quote: 21RevolutionHey Dan- I gotta give you credit here. When I'm just tossing out ideas to make a point, you still give some feedback on it :) Looks like Switch is way ahead of us on potential busts that would result in a push. So, if you have a game that requires that kind of rule, it seems there is a good chance that a particular offsetting rule is already patented.
1. When it comes to Blackjack variations, Geoff Hall is The Master.
2. And Yes, usually, but not always, a game idea is taken, and you have to search not only the patent database, but games that are in production, as a patent takes a while to show up (it is hidden for a while between the filing date and issuance date.) Wizardofodds.com has a very good repository of games for review.
Quote: 21Revolution(this might be the case with MrCasinoGames Raise Em Blackjack?).
I think that secure Intellectual Property ownership would be more the case with people and manufacturers who have actually patented and installed games in North America themselves; MrCasinoGames has installs in Asia, South Africa, basically non-U.S. areas, and he shows his wares for interest and discussion here. MrCasinoGames is free to mention any installs he actually has in North America. Also, some people buy other's patents, and try to stretch them to "cover" new games when in fact they do not when put under reasonable examination. Furthermore, if you look up the patent numbers supplied, you can read the patent and see if it is really related, and provides coverage of the idea - or not. It is an area for the non-lawyer game designer that calls for real and quite formal legal opinions.
Quote: 21RevolutionSo then what do you do? You have a fun game providing player advantage, but no way to offset it? Or do you need to pull in that inventor to join forces with you?
You can patent the base mechanism, the "fun" mechanism of the game, and then add reasonable public domain rules and mechanisms to adjust the house edge from that point. ("Blackjack pays instant even money" to provide a house edge, or "Blackjack pays 2:1" to increase the player's edge). Or you can adjust and tailor the game and its mechanisms yourself, if experienced in the tradecraft. Always best to know for sure, do research, and use good patent attorneys and gaming mathematicians to do it right. It's a long and highly detailed road that gets you to the promised land.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesAt the ICE Feb-2013 totally gaming Earls Court exhibition centre, I have shown 3 New Table Games.
I would like to see what member of this forum think about them and any feedback.
Raise’em® Blackjack (Patent Pending)
Standard Blackjack rules remain unchanged other than as set out below:
• In addition to the normal doubling, Player may make a Raise-bet after seeing his first card and Dealer’s up-card providing the Player’s card is not an ace (the Raise-bet may not exceed his Original-bet) and will be paid 3 to 2 for blackjack on his Original-bet and Raise-bet if made.
• Player’s 21 beats Dealer’s 21 and Player’s blackjack beats Dealer’s blackjack.
• Double or Split-pairs: Must equal to the Original-bet plus Raise-bet if made.
• If Dealer has 17 and Player has 17 to 20 the Player’s bets is a Tie.i
Raise’em® 3-Card Draw (Patent Pending)
1. Each Player makes an Enter-bet.
2. Each Player receives three cards face down.
3. Each Player must stand with his 3-Card Poker-hand (no additional bets) or exchanging one card by making a Draw-bet either equal to or double his Enter-bet.
4. Based on the Player’s 3-Card Poker-hand the Player’s Enter-bets and Draw-bets will be paid according to the 3-Card Draw Pay-table.
Double-Hit® Roulette (RD Patent Pending)
A Roulette Side-game allowing bets on two consecutive spins of the wheel, where Player bets on a single or two adjacent streets. Player wins if the ball lands on his selected street(s) twice in consecutive spins.
Double-Hit on a single street pays 144 to 1 and Double-Hit on two adjacent streets pays 35 to 1.
Examples of Double-Hit®
Betting Single Street of three numbers (7, 8 and 9).
First spin: the winning number is any of 7, 8 or 9.
Second spin: the winning number is again any of 7, 8 or 9.
Betting Two adjacent streets of six numbers (7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12).
First spin: winning number is any of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12.
Second spin: winning number is again any of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12.
My game: Raise’em® 3-Card Draw is now played in the UK (Patent Pending)
UK Gambling Commission Approved. Read More (ukcasinotablegames.info)
1. Each Player makes an Enter-bet.
2. Each Player receives three cards face down.
3. Each Player must stand with his 3-Card Poker-hand (no additional bets) or exchanging one card by making a Draw-bet either equal to or double his Enter-bet.
4. Based on the Player’s 3-Card Poker-hand the Player’s Enter-bets and Draw-bets will be paid according to the 3-Card Draw Pay-table.
Quote: LuckyCongratulations Stephen, and thanks for the link showing the paytables. RAISE'EM 3-CARD DRAW seems like an interesting and workable game.
Thanks Lucky.
The game is doing well so far.
