Baccarat Variant (w/Dice)

I have been working on a new game concept and have filed the initial IP and shared it with a few Forum members privately. The concept has been uniformely panned by those with whom I have shared it. As I respect their opinions, my optimism is not high for the game, but I would like to get some real baccarat players opinions, particularly to the questions posed at the end.

The concept is very simple: Replace the initial two card hand in baccarat for both player and banker with the roll of three dice using two pai gow cups (one cup for the Player roll and the other cup for the Banker roll). The result of the three dice roll for each hand is scored using the baccarat scoring system (so three dice sums of less than 9 are scored as their sum and three dice sums of 10 or greater are scored by subtracting ten from the total). Drawing rules are the same as traditional baccarat and an 8 deck shoe of cards is used for drawing when required. The drawn card value as scored in baccarat is added to the initial three dice value.

As it turns out the math behind the various baccarat outcomes using three dice in place of cards is very similar to traditional baccarat. As examples, here are occurences of the following events in both games:

Natural 9 Winner: Two Cards=8.59%, Three Dice=10.23%;
Natural 8 Winner: Two Cards=7.67%, Three Dice=7.97%
End Hand in Tie: Two Cards=9.51%, Three Dice=9.24%
Both Hands Draw: Two Cards=31.77%, Three Dice=33.28%
Player Draws Only: Two Cards=18.57%, Three Dice=15.63%
Banker Draws Only: Two Cards=11.77%, Three Dice=9.84%
Neither Hand Draws: Two Cards=37.89%, Three Dice=41.26%

House Edge Banker: Two Cards=1.06%, Three Dice=1.12%
House Edge Players: Two Cards=1.24%, Three Dice=1.18%
House Edge Tie (8 to 1): Two Cards=14.36%, Three Dice=16.82%
House Edge Tie (9 to 1): Two Cards=4.84%, Three Dice=7.57%

So why do this? The only real reason is the potential for side bets possible using the two separate rolls of the three dice. I have many concepts included in the IP, but my preferred is a Two Way Dragon Bonus type side bet based on the actual values of the the dice rolls only. I have a side bet based on the spread between the dice rolls (max. spread of 15 would be a 3 roll vs. an 18 roll, 1 in 23,328 hands) with a hit frequency of just under 20%, a house edge of 8% and payouts from 1-1 up to 500-1. You hit the paytable if the spread between the rolls is at least 6 and you don't have to pick whether the Player or the Banker has the higher of the two dice rolls.

There are matching dice bets available, Sic Bo type bets available, a ton of potential is opened up in the side bet environment when using the two 3-dice rolls to start the hand.

I can envision the big bettor at a table being given the opportunity to shake the pai gow cup containing the three dice for the hand they have bet on and then being allowed to squeeze the draw card if one is required. This would be a replacement for the big player squeezing the cards in traditional baccarat.

The big hurdle here is the "flow of the shoe" mystique in baccarat. Will baccarat players be able to transfer the pattern tracking mystique of the shoe to historical dice roll results? Does the concept of the "green pai gow" dice used for Player being "hot/on a roll" versus the "red pai gow" dice used for Banker provide any similar mystique?

Will the interaction of the big player being able to shake the pai gow cup and "influence" the outcome of the hand be a good substitute for squeezing the cards? Or will shaking the dice feel like too much human involvement in the outcome as opposed to the fate/fortune that is built into the set card order of a shuffled 8 deck shoe? Is the potential of winning 30-1, 50-1, 100-1 or 500-1 as frequently as you win 30-1 on the Dragon Bonus bet now, incentive enough to get you to play this variant (you hit one of these payoffs as often as hitting the Dragon Bonus for 30-1)?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions as I am not familiar with the nuances and superstitions of the dedicated baccarat player other than knowing they exist and are a real part of the mystique of the traditional game of baccarat.

I welcome all comments but am particularly interested in the thoughts of dedictated baccarat players.

I don't think you'll ever get baccarat players to give up their shoes and cards. It's too much a part of the game. You could introduce a side bet with the pai gow dice, though. I wouldn't mind a dice side bet while playing tiles. Although I am sure someone has thought to cross sic bo with the other asian games before.

Its a nice proof-of-concept game, much like my version of Spanish 21 using 12-sided dice.

Part of the appeal of baccarat is for players to "squeeze" the cards and look for two sides, three sides, etc. I don't see asian baccarat players changing their play for dice. I don't understand why baccarat is so popular but it is meant to be played with cards.

Baccarat is by far my favorite game and I am not interested in playing a game where I can't squeeze the cards.

Quote: Paradigm

I have been working on a new game concept and have filed the initial IP and shared it with a few Forum members privately. The concept has been uniformely panned by those with whom I have shared it. As I respect their opinions, my optimism is not high for the game, but I would like to get some real baccarat players opinions, particularly to the questions posed at the end.

The concept is very simple: Replace the initial two card hand in baccarat for both player and banker with the roll of three dice using two pai gow cups (one cup for the Player roll and the other cup for the Banker roll).

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/5940-whats-in-a-name-part-1/#post82065
My version was basically "Beat the Dealer" with 3 dice each instead of 2. See Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling, p. 508. It wasn't meant to be novel per se (and I didn't file any IP) but more of a simple free (no-lease) party game, loud, fast, and simple. To your point, that's the opposite of baccarat.

How about you make the roll like Sic-Bo, where the dice are rolled (via turning over the cup on the felt) before the player makes a bet. I think this can retain some of the mystique, as some players claim to know what the dice roll based on the sound, or are just plain psychic.

Soda - You hit the nail on the head, will baccarat players give up their cards and shoes for a chance at larger side bet opportunities? I would run the Tie bet as a 9-1 pay to add some attraction for players there as well. Appreicate the input, do you play baccarat on a regular basis?

Ace & Bigfoot - appreciate your input on card squeezing, that was one of my concerns as well. Mini bacc is gaining in popularity and players oftentimes aren't able to squeeze the cards in that game (Big, do you ever play mini bacc this way?). But the game still uses cards throughout, whereas my game uses dice and then cards to fulfill any drawing requirements. I am hearing you both say that there is no potential for substituting the dice for the initial two cards even if you allow players the ability to handle the pai gow cup for one of the hands and then squeeze the draw card.

ME - I recall your dice war concept, similar in number generation to what I am proposing, I just layering baccarat scoring and baccarat drawing rules on top. The spread side bet concept could be used in the "Dice War" game as the side bet, perhaps in a one-way type of arrangement to create a very attractive pay table.

CM - you could certainly have the dealer shake the pai gow cups and have them covered & idle and while players make their bets. After signaling no more bets the cups would be revealed one at a time, Player first, then Banker (as the cards are revealed in mini bacc). There may be security concerns here that would need to be addressed.

I appreciate the feedback!

Quote: 98Clubs

Its a nice proof-of-concept game, much like my version of Spanish 21 using 12-sided dice.

Thanks 98, I missed your S21 variant. 12 sided dice are tough as most people aren't familiar with their results and probabilities.

" Will the interaction of the big player being able to shake the pai gow cup and "influence" the outcome of the hand be a good substitute for squeezing the cards? "

Was trapped in Blackhawk one snowy night. Wound up playing till 6 am with 7 players, 1 dealer, 1 floor person. I was the only non-Asian in the room. I learned a lot about how lucky I was to be born in this country versus migrating and bringing one's family over.

This was about 3 years ago and rumors were Blackhawk would soon have Baccarat. One of the 3 female players started to squeeze her poker cards, much to the delight of the other 2 ladies. All 3 were chatting about how they loved Baccarat. Until someone said it would be electronic, no real cards. After a few sighs of disgust, everybody got back to playing poker.

Based on that observation I believe for some Asians there can be no substitute for "squeezing the cards" .

Paradigm,

I know you want to mix cards and dice to make a game since no one has a successful game like this. One must ask why do I need the cards and the dice. The dice for most part is a randon number generator. The cards have a little more involved because of the possible poker hands and rankings. There is card variation of craps that uses cards rather than dice in CA. It is not doing that well.

In pai gow tiles, they use three dice to determine who gets which tiles. Here I can see adding a bet with the dice. There aren't any side bet on pai gow tiles so an idea combining sic bo and this is possible.

Rather than starting from the point of saying I want to add cards and dice in a game, I would start and ask can I do without one or the other. If the answer is, it can't be done, than it may be worth trying.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained but in a game like baccarat, tradition and superstition rules.

As paigowdan said, "evolution rather than evolution." Baby steps or minior changes will work better that trying something completely off the cuff even if it seems do able.

Just my 2 cents on this subject.

Ace, I appreciate your comments.

I look at cards and dice both as random number generators. Cards generate random numbers in BJ and in poker, they just do it in a different manner. Specific poker hands and their rankings are simply random numbers that happen less frequently as you ride up the table of possible hands from one pair to a royal flush.

I do like dice. For whatever reason, anticipating the results of a dice roll are exciting to me.

But I also think you can't do much more with dice alone other than craps. There was a three dice game at G2E this year that was craps like, but slightly different. Increasing the number of dice doesn't really add much to craps. You walked away saying "why wouldn't I just play craps.....there are plenty of betting options on the craps table already". The three dice didn't add anything that craps doesn't already offer.

It doesn't look like inserting dice adds much to baccarat for true baccarat players even with the addition of a high paying side bet.

My side bet wins on 20% of hands, you win greater than 2-1 on over 7% of hands and win 30/50/100/500 to 1 just as often as you hit a 30-1 pay out in Dragon Bonus (about 1 in 270 hands). As a comparison, the Dragon Bonus has a hit rate of 28% but you only win more than two units 4.8% of the time and the max pay is 30-1. Dragon 7 has a 2.2% hit rate, Panda 8 has a 3.4% hit rate. My goal was to give baccarat players a side bet with a reasonably high hit rate and the potential for a large payout, like 500-1.

I don't think that side bet mix can be achieved in baccarat with just the cards. PaiGowDan has a new baccarat side bet with the potential for large payouts and a progressive, but I think the hit rate is well below 20%. It could fill a niche of low hit rate but very high payouts. I don't know the math on his bet (perhaps he will share it).

I wanted to hear from baccarat players directly and some of them have spoken. I am listening intently and it doesn't look good :-)