Riverboat Roulette -- Roulette with Place Bets / Multiple Spin Wagers
Ever think of submitting it to SMI or TCS Huxley ? Or were you so sure it was a winner you did not want to
take a smaller share of the profits ?
Quote: buzzpaffSince you knew family and friends were not to be trusted, did you pitch your game to any croupiers or casino personnel.
Most can be bought for a meal ?
Yes we did...and got positive feedback. However, the market we had access only has a limited number of casinos. Famed gaming consultant, George Joseph, even stated that he believed the game deserved a shot, was "well thought out", and had the potential to be a huge hit. But....opinions are like (well we all know), so that's why I came here, to see if there were any other negatives that we haven't already heard.
Keno for Roulette?!?!? Roulette IS Keno!!! lol
Keno for Roulette is Keno
Craps for Roulette is CRAPS
Quote: buzzpaffEvidently you did not read my feedback. I never said anything but that it was a great learning experience.
Ever think of submitting it to SMI or TCS Huxley ? Or were you so sure it was a winner you did not want to
take a smaller share of the profits ?
We wanted to see if we could make it big ourselves first before going to distributors.....we can always contact them if aren't able to make it happen.
First Thought:
"Why the **** am I only getting 2:1 on a six-number bet?"
Quote: doubleluckYes we did...and got positive feedback. However, the market we had access only has a limited number of casinos. Famed gaming consultant, George Joseph, even stated that he believed the game deserved a shot, was "well thought out", and had the potential to be a huge hit. But....opinions are like (well we all know), so that's why I came here, to see if there were any other negatives that we haven't already heard.
George will appear for a fee. Gee, I hope you did not pay him for that evaluation. He has no expertise in that area.
TElliot or Mike could have saved you a lot of money.
Quote: Mission146Saw the layout before I read the post. The layout is the first thing players see.
First Thought:
"Why the **** am I only getting 2:1 on a six-number bet?"
same thought here.
Quote: buzzpaffGeorge will appear for a fee. Gee, I hope you did not pay him for that evaluation. He has no expertise in that area.
TElliot or Mike could have saved you a lot of money.
We didn't pay anyone a dime!
Quote: doubleluckYes we did...and got positive feedback.
I'm curious, what was their positive FB? What did
they think was its selling point? I've brought up a
number of good negatives and you have addressed
almost none of them here.
Quote: doubleluckWe wanted to see if we could make it big ourselves first before going to distributors.....we can always contact them if aren't able to make it happen.
You would not have had to accept any offer they made. But a complete lack of interest would have saved you a lot of time and money.
Roger is always open to submissions, especially those where the inventor had got a patent, layout, math, etc.
Hell, I even got a free prime rib dinner ?
Wish you luck, but boy, you are really gonna need a lot of it !
Quote: doubleluckWe didn't pay anyone a dime!
Fee advice is worth the price. Telliot and other charge a price, but save money in the long run. Right Teddy ?
Quote: EvenBobI'm curious, what was their positive FB? What did
they think was its selling point? I've brought up a
number of good negatives and you have addressed
almost none of them here.
They liked the multiple-spin aspect.
They liked the possibility of increased revenue per square foot over the existing game by adding 7 new betting options.
SOME liked offering bets that are lower than the traditional 5.26....some did not.
They also liked that it doesn't affect the traditional game.
OMG, warn me before posting stuff like that !
Quote: doubleluck
They liked the possibility of increased revenue per square foot over the existing game by adding 7 new betting options.
90% of the betting options on a regular layout are
never used, what difference does adding 7 more
mean? Especially when the casino make no more
money from them than regular roulette.
Thats a major point you seem to be missing. The
casino has no REASON to install this game. They
make less money from it, not more. That would be
readily apparent anybody who knows roulette and
investigates it for longer than 15min.
You do understand that it makes less money for
the casino than regular roulette, right?
Quote: EvenBob90% of the betting options on a regular layout are
never used, what difference does adding 7 more
mean? Especially when the casino make no more
money from them than regular roulette.
If 90% of the betting options on a regular layout are never used, then doesn't that prove the point that the game needs something else or something different? If not, then why not remove the 90% that you speak of and make the game take up less space on the floor? The casino DOES have a reason to place the game, attractive wagers for players directly relate to more money wagered. As a BJ player, I don't bet ANY side bets, yet they exist.....As a baccarat player, I'd never bet the Dragon Bonus because the HE is too high, yet the side bet exists. While no game appeals to every type of gambler, not all side-bets will appeal to every type of player either. However, we believe it will appeal to some and believe that the multiple-spin component is very attractive.
Quote: doubleluckThey liked the multiple-spin aspect.
Oh, good. That was the idea behind my Roulette Keno, a thread that you may or may not have read before laughing at it.
Quote:They liked the possibility of increased revenue per square foot over the existing game by adding 7 new betting options.
Excellent. Roulette Keno offered a nearly boundless number of new betting options.
Quote:SOME liked offering bets that are lower than the traditional 5.26....some did not.
The edge for Roulette Keno would always be slightly higher, compensated for by potentially huge payouts.
Quote:They also liked that it doesn't affect the traditional game.
Roulette Keno would not have accomplished that, so I'll give you that one.
Negatives
1.) It really does look like you're only paying 2:1 on a six-number bet.
2.) Only two of your neighborhoods resolve at a rate better than 1/3rd of all spins.
3.) I really just see people moving their action from one part of the table to another, especially since this is to be incorporated into the main Roulette layout. If you were to put all of these bets off to the side and label them, "Section Bets," or something to that effect, people would make the bets and just play the regular game until those bets are resolved.
4.) I think the HE is too low on some of the bets. It should be the standard HE in my opinion, or higher. If I were playing, I'd make the bets with the lowest HE, of course, but maybe I'd make ONLY those bets.
Positives
1.) You might draw a few bets on people section-tracking pursuant to the Board.
2.) I also like the multiple-spin aspect, just don't know why the casino would want to take longer to get their (and in some cases, less) money.
Recommendations
1.) It would honestly be much better if you seperated these bets entirely from the main layout and just labelled them, "Section Bets." That's more easily understood than your layout as it is now, and you could also include the numbers for each section in parenthesis. I also think that there would be less, "Bet moving," which would draw action on this game without the expense of lost action on the regular game.
Secondly, the hard-core Roulette lover would just completely ignore the, "Section Bets," and since the rest of the layout would be standard Roulette layout, he's not going to be seriously PO'ed about these bets being there.
2.) The separate area could have a little descriptor saying, "Bets win if color lands before White," because it's really tough to tell what you are attempting to do just looking at the layout w/o reading the Rules. Players are going to take a look at the layout and take off immediately if they are at all confused by what's going on.
just a flash in the pan. Probably won't be able to find a roulette table in the next few thousand years.
Those hard-cores would be playing across the street, believe me !
Quote: buzzpaffThat's why Keno Roulette was a better idea. The keno bets had a higher HE.
Yes!!! Thank you!!!
Quote: doubleluckIf not, then why not remove the 90% that you speak of
You're logic makes no sense. They aren't removed because
they aren't taking up any space and they aren't slowing down
the game. This is a major point I live with every time I
play roulette, and the casino lives with every day. Slow games
make for less revenue. Making the game even slower, like your
additions do, that don't make any more money for the casino,
will never be bought by the casino.
PS USAF 1962-66 Vietnam era vet
Quote: buzzpaffDoubleluck has gone silent. Hopefully he does not regret his solicitation of feedback. And realizes most forum poster are not bullies or sissies hiding behind a keyboard. If i make it to G2E, I will stop by his booth and wish him well.
PS USAF 1962-66 Vietnam era vet
I went silent to go grab me something to eat....and don't regret asking for feedback. People believe whatever they believe and helps me better understand the flaws that may exist in the idea or help uncover better ways to explain the concept.
On a side note, Buzz, thanks for your service to the World's Greatest Air Force!
USAF, SMST, Retired 1987 - 2012
Quote: Mission146
Recommendations
1.) It would honestly be much better if you seperated these bets entirely from the main layout and just labelled them, "Section Bets." That's more easily understood than your layout as it is now, and you could also include the numbers for each section in parenthesis. I also think that there would be less, "Bet moving," which would draw action on this game without the expense of lost action on the regular game.
Secondly, the hard-core Roulette lover would just completely ignore the, "Section Bets," and since the rest of the layout would be standard Roulette layout, he's not going to be seriously PO'ed about these bets being there.
2.) The separate area could have a little descriptor saying, "Bets win if color lands before White," because it's really tough to tell what you are attempting to do just looking at the layout w/o reading the Rules. Players are going to take a look at the layout and take off immediately if they are at all confused by what's going on.
Thanks for the critique Mission! Great feedback!
Quote: Mission146
1.) It would honestly be much better if you seperated these bets entirely from the main layout and just labelled them, "Section Bets."
Where on the layout would this section go? There
is already a lack of space, theres no room for a
seperate section. And it doesn't
matter where it is, all the negatives still apply. I have yet
to see one positive that would be a selling point to the
casino. They like to make more money on a game, not less.
Quote: EvenBobI have yet
to see one positive that would be a selling point to the
casino. They like to make more money on a game, not less.
As a brand new player who is interested in playing a table game, I ask the question, "What table game would you recommend I play that gives me a good chance of winning?" What would average casino employee's advice be? Which table game would they say NOT to play? Which table game would they say to stay away from?
Quote: doubleluckAs a brand new player who is interested in playing a table game, I ask the question, "What table game would you recommend I play that gives the a good chance of winning?"
Certainly not roulette, because of its high HE its always
near the bottom of the list. And would be with your additions.
Quote: doubleluckWhich table game would they say NOT to play? Which table game would they say to stay away from?
Roulette and Keno and the Big 6 wheel. Your game
doesn't make roulette easier to win at, it just postpones
a few losses. Which doesn't translate into more wins
for the player or the casino.
Quote: EvenBobCertainly not roulette, because of its high HE its always
near the bottom of the list. And would be with your additions.
What you've stated exactly is the problem that we've attempted to "fix" with the traditional game. And, to the contrary, with our additions, the HE is lowered on four of the seven new options.
Quote: doubleluckWhat you've stated exactly is the problem that we've attempted to "fix" with the traditional game. And, to the contrary, with our additions, the HE is lowered on four of the seven new options.
But not enough to make it a desirable game. All
you've done is make less money for the casino by
lowering some of the HE, and slowing the game
down.
I've mentioned slowing down the game a dozen
times now and you have yet to comment on it.
This is NOT a small issue, believe me. The pit
wrings its hands when roulette slows to a crawl
and the hold is effected. Had you considered this?
Its the first thing that would have ocurred to me.
Quote: EvenBob
I've mentioned slowing down the game a dozen
times now and you have yet to comment on it.
This is NOT a small issue, believe me. The pit
wrings its hands when roulette slows to a crawl
and the hold is effected. Had you considered this?
Its the first thing that would have ocurred to me.
While the "slowing down the game" element is almost always brought up with respect to a side bet, I don't see point as completely valid. When it wins it's paid, when it loses it's swept, when it's a non-winning outcome the bet remains in place. Therefore, the bets with the lowest HE is only being paid roughly once out of every six spins. Bacarrat, Blackjack, and Pai Gow have all added side bets which have decreased hands per hour in exchange for higher average bets. These new bets will grow new players and increase revenue since they are more attractive and have a lower HE. Let's not assume that now all roulette players will suddenly change their betting strategies and only bet on the orange and blue neighborhoods. This would give to much credit to the gambler in assuming they are completely disciplined. Most avid roulette players I've seen either bet THEIR own numbers in hopes that the dealer hits them OR bets the actual wheel (hence the neighborhood sections) by clocking the dealer. As a result, we believe those that bet the wheel will raise their average bet by tracking the colors.
Quote: doubleluckWhile the "slowing down the game" element is almost always brought up with respect to a side bet, I don't see point as completely valid.
Then you're not understanding. Your side bet
effectively slows down the entire game, it has
to. Adding even more for the dealer to do will
obviously slow down the game and cause a
smaller hold. This is a complicated side bet,
causing the dealer to do more payouts and more
scrutinizing to make sure all is correct. There
are already many dealer mistakes in roulette, this
will make for even more. I think far more. When
its busy I wouldn't be surprised if this bet costs
the casino as many as 5 spins per hour. And because
it adds nothing to the game, that adds up to profits
down the drain for the casino.
Quote: EvenBobYour side bet effectively slows down the entire game, it has
to. This is a complicated side bet.
It doesn't slow it down as much as you would think. Bets are not resolved on every spin, therefore, in most cases the dealer has to do nothing.
Complicated for the dealer / player / or both?
Quote: doubleluckIt doesn't slow it down as much as you would think. Bets are not resolved on every spin, therefore, in most cases the dealer has to do nothing.
Have you even played you're own game? Of course he'll
have payouts with your section on every spin. You think
a player is going to bet just one colored section? He'll
bet two or three, I guarantee it. He won't know what
he's doing or care. So if its busy you'll have all the colored
area's covered on every spin, so there will always be payoffs.
Something else to consider. Dozens and columns often sleep
for as long as 12-15 spins. If 12 numbers sleeps for that
long, your 8 white numbers will often sleep for longer than
that. Which means bets sitting and sitting and sitting on
double street colored bets that are also sleeping. Players
won't like this and will get bored and discouraged and think
they are more likely to lose that bet than win it, so they'll
take it down and bet it elsewhere.
And the casino will look at these sitting bets as money that
could be going in their pockets. And they'd be correct, it could
be and should be going to them..
Quote: EvenBobHave you even played you're own game? Of course he'll
have payouts with your section on every spin. You think
a player is going to bet just one colored section? He'll
bet two or three, I guarantee it. He won't know what
he's doing or care. So if its busy you'll have all the colored
area's covered on every spin, so there will always be payoffs.
Something else to consider. Dozens and columns often sleep
for as long as 12-15 spins. If 12 numbers sleeps for that
long, your 8 white numbers will often sleep for longer than
that. Which means bets sitting and sitting and sitting on
double street colored bets that are also sleeping. Players
won't like this and will get bored and discouraged and think
they are more likely to lose that bet than win it, so they'll
take it down and bet it elsewhere.
And the casino will look at these sitting bets as money that
could be going in their pockets. And they'd be correct, it could
be and should be going to them..
FINALLY, thanks for proving all our points! Especially with regards to betting more than one color and tripling the average bet!!!! If the 8 white numbers are "sleeping" as long as you say, then those colored neighborhoods will be paying off! Thanks for your guarantee!!!!
Quote: doubleluckFINALLY, thanks for proving all our points! Especially with regards to betting more than one color and tripling the average bet!!!! Thanks for your guarantee!!!!
OK, I get it. You don't want feedback, you want to
continue polishing your lump of coal and calling it
a diamond. Denial is wonderful, keep selling
it to yourself, you're its only buyer.
Never mind, sorry I wasted so much of my time...
Quote: EvenBobOK, I get it. You don't want feedback, you want to
continue polishing your lump of coal and calling it
a diamond. Denial is wonderful, keep selling
it to yourself, you're its only buyer.
Never mind, sorry I wasted so much of my time...
Sounds like as long as you're able to make your points you have no problem dishing it out, but when your own words are used to show what we believe a roulette player would actually do, you take your ball and go home and chalk it up to "denial". I will agree with you though, at this point, I'm the game's only buyer...so we have a long way to go! Sorry for wasting your time if you view it that way.
Does that mean your brother has seen the light ? LOL
Quote: buzzpaffDoes that mean your brother has seen the light ? LOL
No....but hopefully the "light" you're referring to isn't one from the flames of crashing & burning like you did at the SFHL Focus Group!!!! LMAO
Isn't it time you told him you were adopted, so he won't worry about insanity being hereditary ?
What does you going solo have anything to do with it? Dying alone or dying with company still results in the same outcome -- at least on most paytables -- oh wait, you may not know what one of those are! lolQuote: buzzpaffBut I went solo. Ever heard of Cain and Abel ?
By the way, you may have noticed how few people responded. As this is a math - centric forum there are very few roulette players here, as those well versed in math are little interested in a game with over 5% house edge, and no real opportunities for advantage play.
GOOD LUCK!
Do you think this game will result in a payday for you. Come on, be honest !
One vet to another . What do you think your chances are ? 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 1,000.
Does this mean you think the odds for sucess are greater than 9-1 ?
Quote: SOOPOOWell double, I think that your horse has been beaten to death by Bob and Buzz! (And me?) I think that you will have to overcome the dealer not being able to sweep away ALL bets, which he can now do. He will have to maneuver to leave your bets up when he sweeps away the red or black or odd or even. This will add time. The 7 -5 type payouts will add time. I guess we will have to see what the experts at the convention say!
By the way, you may have noticed how few people responded. As this is a math - centric forum there are very few roulette players here, as those well versed in math are little interested in a game with over 5% house edge, and no real opportunities for advantage play.
GOOD LUCK!
SOOPOOO, the things you've said are actually constructive. However, dealing procedures for outside bets normally require dealers to pick outside bets and sweep the inside ones. The location of our colored, neighborhood, betting section is that when it loses, the entire section loses and may be swept (treated like all other inside losing bets). Conversely when one of them wins, the dealer will still pick the other losing outside bets while leaving the other pushed bets in place. I agree that paying out on wins will increase some time, as do all other winning wagers, so it will have to be determined if having more action in play justifies more time being spent handling payouts.
Quote: buzzpaffOne vet to another . What do you think your chances are ? 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 1,000.
Our chances? 1 in 1,000 just like every other table game developer.
By the way, how many games do you have that have made it to the casino floor?
Slowing the game to handle a side bet with a high house edge is not a bad thing.Quote: doubleluckWhile the "slowing down the game" element is almost always brought up with respect to a side bet, I don't see point as completely valid.
Oh, wait.
Your side bet has a LOW house edge? Lower than the standard game's edge?
Why would a casino want to put that game on the floor? And why would they want to pay you for that?
Quote: DJTeddyBearSlowing the game to handle a side bet with a high house edge is not a bad thing.
Oh, wait.
Your side bet has a LOW house edge? Lower than the standard game's edge?
Why would a casino want to put that game on the floor? And why would they want to pay you for that?
The premise of the idea is to invite more action by including these "side bets" that are advantageous to the player. If a casino wants to win 100% of a player's buy-in, do they want to win it in 10 minutes or 1 hour? Most all new side bets simply take a player's money faster. Our idea is to take it a little slower and let the player feel as if he has a better chance to win. Additionally, roulette is a social game, when people are hanging around a little longer at the table, others tend to flock to those tables rather than empty ones.
What's better a side bet with a high house edge that allows a player to bet $1 - $25 or a number of side bets with a lower house edge that allows a player to bet the table max?
Additionally, with these new bets combined, the house now has an additional 4.21% edge on wagers that never existed before....without them, they have 100% of nothing.
As a result, new play increases drop while higher average bets increases hold.
