Rate My Craps Side Bet

Greetings all,

I’d like to conduct an informal survey on my craps game variation. It’s patented and approved for play in Nevada, but I’ve only recently begun marketing it in earnest. Seeing how hard it is to get any kind of feedback from table game directors, it occurs to me that this would be an excellent forum to get some honest, relevant opinions.

What I’ve done is expanded upon the most popular side bet in craps—the place bets—by adding “any craps” to the equation.

I’ve created two types of bets... “Long” Place Bets with longer odds and bigger payouts than the standard place bets, and “Short” Place Bets with shorter odds and smaller payouts. But I think it’s the Long place bets that are more compelling. You tell me which you like, if either.

Sample pay tables are listed below, along with a sample table layout. Alternatively, dedicated lammers can be used to indicate the bets within the standard place boxes to avoid altering the table layout.

If you want more details, you can check out the game’s Web page here. Or simply post a question. Feel free to add comments in addition to the survey ratings.

Thanks in advance to all who participate!


Long Place Bets:
Bets for the individual numbers 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 being rolled before any 7, 2, 3 or 12. In other words, before any 7 or any craps, as opposed to just any 7. Players place bets simply by calling out the Long Place Number, such as "place the LONG six" or "buy the LONG six."





Short Place Bets:
Bets for the individual numbers 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 being rolled before any 2, 3 or 12. In other words, before any craps, as opposed to any 7. Players place bets simply by calling out the Short Place Number, such as "place the SHORT six" or "buy the SHORT six."



As you can see, the Long place bets offer significantly larger payouts than standard place bets; for example, getting nearly 2:1 on the 6/8 versus a tad over 1:1; or 3:1 on the 4/10 versus less than 2:1. Yet the house edge is still reasonable (even with a built-in incremental edge to appeal to casinos), which I believe makes it a compelling alternative to prop bets and some of the more recent side bets that can take forever to resolve and have very long odds and a steep edge. By comparison, this provides much faster action, bigger payouts than standard place bets (in the case of the Long place bets) and a reasonable edge.

The Short place bets, by contrast, offer shorter odds obviously but also a smaller payout.


UPDATES:

Just to clarify, I'm only showing place-to-win bets in the payout tables since that is what most people play. You can buy and lay both bets as well but I didn't list those here in the interest of simplicity.

There seems to be a little confusion over the "Short" place bets. They are not "darkside" bets per se, although you can lay them. They're bets for the place numbers occurring before any craps as opposed to any 7.

There's been a lot of questions as to what "problem" the side bets solve, so I'm re-posting below what I've posted further on:

Most craps players love the place bets. As soon as the table starts to get hot, they load them up. The PROBLEM is, all too often you hit one of your numbers once, maybe twice before the shooter sevens out. So all too often you’re lucky to break even, unless the shooter is really on a roll, right?

What LONG place numbers SOLVE is the opportunity to MAKE MORE MONEY WITH FEWER HITS. So if a player sevens out (or craps out with any craps) after hitting one or two of your numbers you do a lot better.

EXAMPLE:

You play the standard six and eight. They pay 7:6. You put $12 on each for an investment of $24. The shooter hits the six twice and sevens out, for a total return of $28 and a whopping net gain of $4.

Now consider the LONG six and eight. They pay 19:10. So now you’ve got $10 on each for a total investment of only $20. Once again, the shooter hits the six twice and then either sevens or craps out. Only now you’ve got a total return of $38 and a net gain of $18. That’s a 450% increase in net return for a smaller investment.

Of course, the risk is greater because you can lose your Long place bet on any craps as well. But if a shooter is going to hit any place numbers, he usually does so right out of the gate, or so it often seems, right? So there’s the perception that the added risk isn’t that great. And in fact, the house edge isn't that much greater.

Like to play it safer? Seems like the seven is rearing its ugly head way too often? Play the SHORT place numbers and make money on every place number until any craps is thrown. Less risk = more frequent hits on your place numbers.

In short, the beauty of the “before bets” is the opportunity of multiple wins before a losing event occurs. What Long and Short place bets provide is the opportunity to make more money faster before a losing event occurs (LONG PLACE BET) or less risk of a losing event occurring (SHORT PLACE BET).

Have you truly thought of all these place bets and cheques on the table at the same time and the shooter plows into them with both dice.
It happens.

What a nightmare!

The player will complain he had a long6 and short5, his favorite numbers BTW,
but the dealer will say it was the other way around or will he even know?? or remember on a full table.

Have you seen the action on a full table and dealt the game on a full table for years as I have?

I do not think so.

Are you trying to replace the normal place bets?
Most buy-in for less than $100 and will not have any extra money to spread out on the table for all these extra bets.

To me, I hate the idea.
Dream on.
Good Luck in your adventure

added: some bets will even suffer breakage. That really sucks.
23:10
11.5:5 ???

19:10
9.5:5??

Quote: 7craps

Have you truly thought of all these place bets and cheques on the table at the same time and the shooter plows into them with both dice...

The player will complain he had a long6 and short5, his favorite numbers BTW,
but the dealer will say it was the other way around or will he even know?? or remember on a full table.

added: some bets will even suffer breakage. That really sucks.
23:10
11.5:5 ???

19:10
9.5:5??

As I said, lammers can be used to indicate Long and Short bets. Also, most tables today are minimum $10, right? But I have alternate pay tables that pay :5 and :6, if that's the issue.

P.S. Sorry you're taking it so personally, but I appreciate your feedback as a dealer.

What market research have you done that indicates players want more betting options that pay near or less than even money?

The Long options might be interesting if they paid a round odds. 23:10 is "meh".

The Shorts are pretty dull. I might as well darkside. Especially as with short odds and high house edge... the trade between variance and house edge isn't there.

Quote: MathExtremist

What market research have you done that indicates players want more betting options that pay near or less than even money?

No research. Just a craps player who loves place bets and thought higher payout alternatives would be fun.

Quote: thecesspit

The Long options might be interesting if they paid a round odds. 23:10 is "meh".

Is 23:10 really any more awkward than 7:6?

Thanks for the post GameBoy. I think the long bet is interesting, but echo the concern about the layout. If you wanted to lay the long place bet, would the dealer place the bet in the space between the bottom of the "number" box and top of the "long place bet box"? It would be more inviting to shrink the area dedicated to "Come", and make the boxes bigger, to make room for all the chips.

It's a lot of work for the dealters to keep track of the different bets, and payoff on each Place bet... twice. Do you expect most players to only play one or the other (regular or long/short), or both?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Thanks for the post GameBoy. I think the long bet is interesting, but echo the concern about the layout. If you wanted to lay the long place bet, would the dealer place the bet in the space between the bottom of the "number" box and top of the "long place bet box"? It would be more inviting to shrink the area dedicated to "Come", and make the boxes bigger, to make room for all the chips.

Yes, you would shrink the standard boxes and the come to make room for the additional boxes beneath. However, that can all be obviated by using lammers to indicate the bets in the standard boxes and print the options on the table.

Two thoughts:

1) can you market them as alternatives to place bets rather than side bets?

2) try to get in touch with the manufacturers of electronic craps machines, as that seems to be a growing segment and would have the least trouble incorporating such payouts (even to the penny if someone wants to place a $1 bet with a 19:10 payout).

I prefer the long bets rather than the short ... in order to keep it as simple as possible my instinct would be to add just the long bet to entice players that would like a chance at higher payouts.

I would also see if simpler payouts could be done to keep that part easier for the dealers.

I find it quite interesting but I'm not a craps player ... I don't honestly know whether craps players would be enticed by this bet or not ... I do know that the simpler the bet is then you give yourself a higher chance of success.

Quote:

being rolled before any 7, 2, 3 or 12

I would consider it if it was a bet [besides darkside] that didnt lose when you rolled a 7, which the game needs. So, "being rolled before any 2, 3 or 12" ... if you have rights to that

Quote: thecesspit

The Long options might be interesting if they paid a round odds. 23:10 is "meh".

The Shorts are pretty dull. I might as well darkside. Especially as with short odds and high house edge... the trade between variance and house edge isn't there.

The shorts make no sense.
Almost all Craps players are taking the odds with Buy, Come and Place bets, they do not like, or even understand, laying the odds.
They would feel cheated, I would, on winning less than what I bet as a *right way* bettor.

Quote: odiousgambit

I would consider it if it was a bet [besides darkside] that didnt lose when you rolled a 7, which the game needs. So, "being rolled before any 2, 3 or 12" ... if you have rights to that

Yes, that would be the "Short" place bets I indicated.

Quote: GameBoy

No research. Just a craps player who loves place bets and thought higher payout alternatives would be fun.

I agree with you there. Higher payouts ARE fun.
Keep it as simple as possible.

of course, come bettors, like me, just laugh at the place bettors with their very high edges that need to be overcome.
The more bets place bettors make, the more money they lose.
I like that.

So your new bets would make for more money won by the casinos from the place bettors :)
and more money available to win for the line with odds bettors.
Excellent!
I take 0% HE bets any day and all day.

Line bets VS. Place bets
we wont go there.

Quote: GameBoy

As I said, lammers can be used to indicate Long and Short bets. Also, most tables today are minimum $10, right? But I have alternate pay tables that pay :5 and :6, if that's the issue.

P.S. Sorry you're taking it so personally, but I appreciate your feedback as a dealer.

Most tables, every hour, every day are not min $10. At least in Nevada.

No need to be sorry.

It reminds me of the over/under 7 bet in Reno in the 90s that paid 4 to 3.

Players had no clue on what that meant, but since it was right above the field, many bet it. Go figure.
$5 bets
$25 bets
$100 bets

The $5 bettors wanted to know, and we were $3 tables back then??? craps players mentality,
how much the $5 paid.
Now the game stops, to the boxman's disbelief, to explain because they made an incorrect unit bet, $3 pays $5 the extra $2 should pay $2.67 but we do not have 50cents so you get only $6.
Some tables had 50cents, and that was horrible having 50cents pieces all over the layout, players would start to bet them.

I think 3to1, 5to1 are much easier to swallow and understand.
IMHO, Get more creative
We already have place bets.

I agree with others, it needs to be simpler

The Long Place Bets Looks OK.

Quote: GameBoy

Is 23:10 really any more awkward than 7:6?

Yes!
Think of the dealers dealing the game.
Dice dealers use both hands in dealing. Two hands, two color cheques.
$7
pick1,pick2 and hand off (1-$5 and 2-$1)

$23, easy
pick4 and pick3 and hand off.
2 colors fast work.

$20 pays $46
The player has NO $1 cheques.
A 3 color payoff. More time needed. (pick1,4 and 1)
Press says the player

$40 pays $92
Player can not drop 3 for $95.

This sucks man...
I would rather deal Crapless Craps.
What?
One for an early out.
That's me

Quote: GameBoy

Quote: odiousgambit

I would consider it if it was a bet [besides darkside] that didnt lose when you rolled a 7, which the game needs. So, "being rolled before any 2, 3 or 12" ... if you have rights to that

Yes, that would be the "Short" place bets I indicated.

Congratulations! Finally! [sorry, browsed your post too quickly]

I can now vote!

Quote: Ayecarumba

It's a lot of work for the dealters to keep track of the different bets, and payoff on each Place bet... twice. Do you expect most players to only play one or the other (regular or long/short), or both?

That's a good question. I have thought about it and I wouldn't suspect players would place both a long and/or short and/or standard place bet on the same number. If that's a problem to manage, it can simply not be allowed.

Hi Gameboy,
I didn't study your bet too much so I can't really say much about it. The reason is, once I saw your HE % there was no need to go any further.

I can place the 6/8 for 1.52% HE
I can place the 5/9 for 4.0% HE
I refuse to place the 4/10 for 6.67%, but will play it when the buy vig is collected on the win, making it 1.67%

The field gives me a lot of numbers and action on every roll, at a HE of 5.56 for 2X on the 2/12 (I won't play) or 2.78% HE for 3x on 12, 2x on the 2.

So, IMO, any new bet on craps has to come in less than 4% HE, or it just gets lumped with the rest of the sucker bets in the center of the table.

Having said that though, I do like to play the fire bet, as the chance of a 1000:1 payout is worth the added excitement, even though the HE is atrocious.

From a logistics perspective, having a bet that does not resolve or lose when a 7 is rolled would be a nightmare to deal, especially if it is sharing space on the felt with bets that do. So this would have to be instead of regular place bets, meaning a special table, as opposed to craps side bets.

Instead of marketing as a craps side bet, perhaps you could market it as an alternative game with dice, played like craps?

JMHO

Best of luck, RaleighCraps

Quote: GameBoy

That's a good question. I have thought about it and I wouldn't suspect players would place both a long and/or short and/or standard place bet on the same number. If that's a problem to manage, it can simply not be allowed.

Then what's the value proposition for the casino? If you're saying that players will take the money they would have bet on the place 6 and put it on the long place 6, then the table doesn't perform meaningfully better.

Quote: MathExtremist

Then what's the value proposition for the casino? If you're saying that players will take the money they would have bet on the place 6 and put it on the long place 6, then the table doesn't perform meaningfully better.

The value proposition for the house is that there's an incremental house edge built into all the Long and Short place bets. (see pay table comparisons to standard place bets)

The value proposition for the player is that he can choose to make a place bet with a bigger payout, albeit longer odds (Long place bet) or smaller payout (Short place bet) but with shorter odds. Clearly people seem to be favoring the Long place bets with bigger payout and longer odds, as I suspected, and which I personally would favor as well.

This seems perfect for an electronic craps game, as someone else mentioned. The added work for the crew, isn't worth it to the casino to put it in. It also doesn't seem "different" enough to interest players. Although I can imagine people making horn bets to hedge their Short Bet, or added security for Long Bets, then skip the regulars.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Hi Gameboy,
I didn't study your bet too much so I can't really say much about it. The reason is, once I saw your HE % there was no need to go any further.

I can place the 6/8 for 1.52% HE
I can place the 5/9 for 4.0% HE
I refuse to place the 4/10 for 6.67%, but will play it when the buy vig is collected on the win, making it 1.67%

The field gives me a lot of numbers and action on every roll, at a HE of 5.56 for 2X on the 2/12 (I won't play) or 2.78% HE for 3x on 12, 2x on the 2.

So, IMO, any new bet on craps has to come in less than 4% HE, or it just gets lumped with the rest of the sucker bets in the center of the table.

Having said that though, I do like to play the fire bet, as the chance of a 1000:1 payout is worth the added excitement, even though the HE is atrocious.

From a logistics perspective, having a bet that does not resolve or lose when a 7 is rolled would be a nightmare to deal, especially if it is sharing space on the felt with bets that do. So this would have to be instead of regular place bets, meaning a special table, as opposed to craps side bets.

Instead of marketing as a craps side bet, perhaps you could market it as an alternative game with dice, played like craps?

JMHO

Best of luck, RaleighCraps

In my opinion, I think it's an even tougher sell to market it as "alternative" craps game. I've never seen any viable product able to compete with the main game. Successful games seem to be ones that compliment the standard game or a standard game with rule changes. Most decision makers are risk averse and wouldn't be willing to take up the floor space for an "alternative".

I guess to borrow a phrase from another thread, you need to ask what problem with craps are you solving for the player or the casino with this sidebet?

I think "Fire" & "All or Nothing" give the craps player a larger payout potential and that is why they are making some headway. The Short bets don't make any sense and the long bets have awkward payouts as have been cited by others.

So you have to be honest, what problem does these side bets offer besides another way to bet on the Craps table? The market doesn't need another way to bet on the craps table.......there are plenty of options on that game already.

" there are plenty of options on that game already. "

So damn many the game is not attracting younger players.

Quote: Paradigm

I guess to borrow a phrase from another thread, you need to ask what problem with craps are you solving for the player or the casino with this sidebet?

I think "Fire" & "All or Nothing" give the craps player a larger payout potential and that is why they are making some headway. The Short bets don't make any sense and the long bets have awkward payouts as have been cited by others.

So you have to be honest, what problem does these side bets offer besides another way to bet on the Craps table? The market doesn't need another way to bet on the craps table.......there are plenty of options on that game already.

I agree that the side bets you mention are attractive to some, but I don't see how either of them truly solve any "problem". I'm sure that people told those developers that the game was already crowded enough with too many options before they took off.

The "problem" these bets solved was large payouts. Before these bets the best you could do was 30 to 1. If they didn't offer the large payouts, they would have died a quick death.

So ask yourself what do your bets offer besides one more way to bet the dice outcome that pays similar to the myriad of other ways to bet the dice outcome already available?

I guess I should have stated the problem this solves up front, but to me it’s so obvious I just assume everyone sees it the way I do.

Check it out...

Most craps players love the place bets. As soon as the table starts to get hot, they load them up. The PROBLEM is, all too often you hit one of your numbers once, maybe twice before the shooter sevens out. So all too often you’re lucky to break even, unless the shooter is really on a roll, right?

What LONG place numbers SOLVE is the opportunity to MAKE MORE MONEY WITH FEWER HITS. So if a player sevens out (or craps out with any craps) after hitting one or two of your numbers you do a lot better.


EXAMPLE:

You play the standard six and eight. They pay 7:6. You put $12 on each for an investment of $24. The shooter hits the six twice and sevens out, for a total return of $28 and a whopping net gain of $4.

Now consider the LONG six and eight. They pay 19:10. So now you’ve got $10 on each for a total investment of only $20. Once again, the shooter hits the six twice and then either sevens or craps out. Only now you’ve got a total return of $38 and a net gain of $18. That’s a 450% increase in net return for a smaller investment.

Of course, the risk is greater because you can lose your Long place bet on any craps as well. But if a shooter is going to hit any place numbers, he usually does so right out of the gate, or so it often seems, right? So there’s the perception that the added risk isn’t that great. And in fact, the house edge isn't that much greater.

Like to play it safer? Seems like the seven is rearing its ugly head way too often? Play the SHORT place numbers and make money on every place number until any craps is thrown. Less risk = more frequent hits on your place numbers.

In short, the beauty of the “before bets” is the opportunity of multiple wins before a losing event occurs. What Long and Short place bets provide is the opportunity to make more money faster before a losing event occurs (LONG PLACE BET) or less risk of a losing event occurring (SHORT PLACE BET).

Quote: GameBoy

I guess I should have stated the problem this solves up front, but to me it’s so obvious I just assume everyone sees it the way I do.

Check it out...

First off, congrats on coming up with a side bet. It can be difficult to think of an idea, and even more difficult to put into words. Regardless of what I say afterwards, I still have respect for that.

Second, I appreciate your defense of why the bet is needed/the problem it solves. This tells me that you are very committed to the side bet and occasionally passion will get you an install in a smaller casino. Success there could translate into something bigger.

Now the bad news, the way I see it... some of this will be echoed from what other posters have said.

While the bet has largER payouts than traditional place bets with a bit more hit frequency, the payouts are simply not large enough to attract new players to the game. If anything, it will confuse existing casual players, who are used to losing place bets only on 7 ("What?!? Why did I lose $10 on that 2?!?). For a new bet to be successful on craps, you need to offer something BIG, even if the odds of hitting are small and the HE is incredibly high.

Imagine a brand new crew coming onto a game. Craps is a tough game to learn anyways, and now you've added whole new line, with its own set of rules and a different set of payouts. The 2,3,12 would often get missed by new dealers, making the game a player advantage. It could potentially slow down long-term dealers who are already paying out on every 6. If there's a lot of horn action, there is a good opportunity the dealer forgets to take down the bets.

Craps is also a public domain game, meaning that MOST casinos that are too cheap to buy into the wacky middle bets (like Fire, Sharp Shooter or All/Tall/Small) are not likely to pick up this game either, especially by itself. Distribution is very important, and the reason the Fire Bet has been successful is because it has a good channel (plus most Caesars properties offer the bet). I just think it's unlikely a casino is going to clamor to buy new layouts and pay rights to a bet like this.

Maybe a field trial will dispel all of these concerns and you've come up with the next best bet to craps. 11 votes against though should give you something to think about.

You're looking at the 11 out of 14 people who wouldn't play the long place numbers (using the current talley). If I'm a casino operator, I'm looking at the 3 out of 14 who would. That's roughly 20% more players that come to my craps tables because of the Long place bets that might otherwise drop their money in a different casino that doesn't offer them. With an increase in hold to boot.

Quote: GameBoy

You're looking at the 11 out of 14 people who wouldn't play the long place numbers (using the current talley). I'm a casino operator and I'm looking at the 3 out of 14 who would. That's roughly 20% more players that come to my craps tables because of the long place bets that might otherwise drop their money in a different casino that doesn't offer them. With an increase in hold to boot.

The way the poll is worded, the 3 players aren't saying that they are going to play at your casino because you offer that bet; they are simply saying if the bet is offered they might consider playing it.

Again, I admire your passion for this bet. So go ahead; spend a lot of money taking this game to market. You're convinced it's going to work, so there must be something to it. I feel most of the concerns that have been brought up address player, dealer and operator concerns, but if you think you have the next big thing, put the money into selling it.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Again, I admire your passion for this bet. So go ahead; spend a lot of money taking this game to market. You're convinced it's going to work, so there must be something to it. I feel most of the concerns that have been brought up address player, dealer and operator concerns, but if you think you have the next big thing, put the money into selling it.

Thanks for at least appreciating my passion. When one has a manic inspiration, it takes over whether the inspiration ultimately proves sound or not. The big money has already been spent in terms of patent attorney fees. The marketing efforts cost next to nothing. And should a casino want to give it a try, it buys a new felt and gets 3-6 months of the game for free. So there really is no more downside in terms of costs.

Quote: GameBoy

Thanks for at least appreciating my passion. When one has a manic inspiration, it takes over whether the inspiration ultimately proves sound or not. The big money has already been spent in terms of patent attorney fees. The marketing efforts cost next to nothing. And should a casino want to give it a try, it buys a new felt and gets 3-6 months of the game for free. So there really is no more downside in terms of costs.

So why even post an entry on here about the bet asking for an opinion? It seems to me that you're not really interested in what people think about the game and what kind of success it could have; rather you want to validate that the idea you came up with is the greatest since the game was invented...

This leads me to a question for all game designers... I understand getting a patent attorney involved in the process early on, but is it wise to do that before finding out if the game even stands a shot?

I work in retail, and the fashion industry is always working 2-4 seasons ahead to get the looks out there quickly. Our buyers are heading to market in July to buy for NEXT Spring... winter is already in the books. If something flops once it hits the stores, you could have spent a lot of money on items that you have to reduce to move it out of the store. Of course, if you find that one great item, it can be a huge payday.

Still, the buyers do a lot of research before making these decisions... is it the same when designing a game, or do you just get your patent attorney to get the rights before you do all the research?

Quote: Tiltpoul

So why even post an entry on here about the bet asking for an opinion? ...

This leads me to a question for all game designers... I understand getting a patent attorney involved in the process early on, but is it wise to do that before finding out if the game even stands a shot?

I work in retail, and the fashion industry is always working 2-4 seasons ahead to get the looks out there quickly. Our buyers are heading to market in July to buy for NEXT Spring... winter is already in the books. If something flops once it hits the stores, you could have spent a lot of money on items that you have to reduce to move it out of the store. Of course, if you find that one great item, it can be a huge payday.

Still, the buyers do a lot of research before making these decisions...

You certainly don't want to ask opinions out in the open about a patentable product until you at least have filed a provisional application. That's number one. You can ask friends and family you trust, but they're not a market, they're individuals.

In terms of market research in general, consider this... Apple is the most profitable company in the world. When Steve Jobs was asked what market research they did before launching a product, he would laugh. Their market research is what they wanted to do, period. Sometimes it's a hit (everything they've done recently). Sometimes it wasn't (the cube).

Conversely, Coca-Cola, the most powerful brand in the world before Apple rose to prominence, spent untold sums researching "New Coke." Well, we all know how that turned out.

Now obviously, I'm not comparing myself to Apple or Coca Cola. But I've been in advertising and marketing for 25 years and I know good ideas don't always subscribe to market research. As Steve Jobs said (paraphrasing), people don't know what they want sometimes until you show it to them. And as Henry Ford said, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.''

This is just one idea of mine. If it works, great. If not, I've got others. Life isn't always about what succeeds and what doesn't. It's often just about doing as an accomplishment unto itself.

One more concern that I don't think has been brought up is the fact that the dealers are used to clearing the whole table when a 7 comes, now there will still be a bunch of bets out there and this will lead to some mistakes.

Quote: bigfoot66

One more concern that I don't think has been brought up is the fact that the dealers are used to clearing the whole table when a 7 comes, now there will still be a bunch of bets out there and this will lead to some mistakes.

Only on the Short place bets. If a casino only offers Long place bets, they're cleared along with the others when a seven comes up, but also any craps. So yes, they have to get trained to the fact that any craps now also affect the new place bets. But I've seen enough dealers in action to know they can handle it.

Quote: GameBoy

I guess I should have stated the problem this solves up front, but to me it’s so obvious I just assume everyone sees it the way I do.

Check it out...

Most craps players love the place bets.

and most place bettors also hate place bets :)
Because they think they they should win way more than what they normally do.
All place bets are dogs to start off with.
5/11 is the best winning probability for any place bet. (just about 1% better than a Field bet!)
and Way less than any come bet.(244/495)

Now one makes 2 place bets at the same time. 6 and 8. They all do. (99%)
Now they have turned a simple place bet into a Lay bet. $12 to win $7.

The average place bettor does not know how often a place bet wins multiple times before a 7 wipes them out.
But they do know how often it does lose.

Quote: GameBoy

As soon as the table starts to get hot, they load them up.

Not really.
They normally start loading up on them right away. Always place the 6&8.

Quote: GameBoy

The PROBLEM is, all too often you hit one of your numbers once, maybe twice before the shooter craps out.
So all too often you’re lucky to break even, unless the shooter is really on a roll, right?

But that is normal.
It is to be expected.
Do the math on hitting more than one place bet before ruin and you will see the odds are against winning more and more.

AND you need to learn the correct Craps lingo.
A shooter "craps out" out a come out roll when rolling a 2, 3 or 12.
Over 3 times you called a 7out the wrong term.

A shooter can never crap out while a point is established.
It is called a 7out.
Get your terminology correct and maybe your ideas will look more professional to the knowledgeable Craps people you need to impress..

Quote: GameBoy

What LONG place numbers SOLVE is the opportunity to MAKE MORE MONEY WITH FEWER HITS. So if a player craps out after hitting one or two of your numbers you do a lot better.

Craps players are not stupid.
They will know right off that the long bets have more ways to LOSE
than regular place bets and that the long place bet is just another sucker bet.

Just like Crapless Craps years ago.
Can't Crap out on the come out roll.
More point numbers and higher free odds.
Also a Higher house edge against the player.

Did it take off and have hundreds of installs?
I know of 3 in Vegas and a few in Tunica.
Maybe that is all you are after.


Now...
I go to casino night parties often on weekends and told a craps table full of players there about your new bet idea.
A few of us tried it out and played with your odds for the long bet.
It was obvious to the four of us that made these bets, before the real players played,
that you lose way more times than you win and the wins do not seem to come close to overcoming the losses as just regular place bets do.

That losing more often makes it feel that you are being cheated, even with the higher payoffs.

Maybe you will have better results at a real casino with real place bettors.

Enjoy!

Quote: guido111

AND you need to learn the correct Craps lingo.
A shooter "craps out" out a come out roll when rolling a 2, 3 or 12.
Over 3 times you called a 7out the wrong term.

A shooter can never crap out while a point is established.
It is called a 7out.

Actually, with the Long and Short place bets, YOU CAN CRAP OUT with a two, three or twelve. But that's beside the point. My bad on applying the terminology, it was early in the a.m. when I wrote it. I'll correct it.

I think it's interesting to compare the Long Bet with AceCrAAckers Double D and Broad Bar 12 bets.

The double D adds a bet that makes an interesting variation on a long roll bet (like the fire bet and small/tall/all), and while Broad Bar 12 is a twist on a place bet. One of those two seems to be doing okay... and it's not the place bet variant.

The Short Bet I think has problems with the way the game runs. Yeah it's annoying there's no bet that carries over a 7-out, but actually this allow the game to "reset" to a blank state, which must help the procedures of dealing.

Quote: thecesspit

I think it's interesting to compare the Long Bet with AceCrAAckers Double D and Broad Bar 12 bets.

The double D adds a bet that makes an interesting variation on a long roll bet (like the fire bet and small/tall/all), and while Broad Bar 12 is a twist on a place bet. One of those two seems to be doing okay... and it's not the place bet variant.

The Short Bet I think has problems with the way the game runs. Yeah it's annoying there's no bet that carries over a 7-out, but actually this allow the game to "reset" to a blank state, which must help the procedures of dealing.

You never answered me. Just curious how old you are?

(lol, I think I'll just drop the question. Usually, adults will engage in conversation but not always)

Ken

Quote: mrjjj

You never answered me. Just curious how old you are?

(lol, I think I'll just drop the question. Usually, adults will engage in conversation but not always)

Ken

Adults also get to choose which conversations they want to have and which ones they don't.

Quote: thecesspit

Adults also get to choose which conversations they want to have and which ones they don't.

(LMAO)......I'll take that as......."I would rather not say Ken cause its real private".

Fine, I have my own guess. Its not real tough to figure out. Kind of a shame, you have potential kid.

Ken