Free bet Blackjack intro - Golden Nugget

I was not being off the mark with the options on this poll inquiry.
Free bet Blackjack was fantastic.
I say this as an ex-serious BJ player who nows play dice and PGP almost exclusively.
This game re-awoke the neglected inner blackjack child within me, - it was that good, - just Brilliant - capital 'B'.

You gotta play it....

I went to the Golden Nugget at 3PM, after installing and introducing EZ Pai Gow with Steve Jones of DEQ Systems at noon today at Boulder Station. [You all gotta play that too...]

I finshed at 2:30, got to the Nugget at 3PM. Geoff was there, along with Joe Centrone, the inventor of Bust It! from Atlantic City, who just moved out here to Vegas (Anthem, actually). The table is located in along the row facing the lounges, across the narrow pit from EZ Pai Gow, actually. [My game was closed. @$#^%!, but it's on a swing shift table schedule. WTH, an install is an install...]

I couldn't get a seat, all spots were jammed. More asses in seats and in action than a Brazillian porno movie. A REALLY goood sign on a new game's first day intro! So Geoff, Mrs. Geoff, Joe and I went for lunch and drinks at the four Queens, chatted business, and when we got back, there were two spots open (four were filled), so I took a spot on 1st base where Geoff was observing. I bought in and played, generally playing $10 (two nickels) to green, for about an hour, while Geoff, Joe and I chatted - but I was a bit drawn into the game, really. It was a six-deck shoe, about 80% penetration, standard rules, (H17, double on any two, split any pairs), - except doubles on soft hands (A-6 against a dealer's 6), and wacky splits on only 10's or 4's must require player hard chips, if you're going to do that. Plus, Geoff's patented push-22 mechanism is in effect, although it seems to be about as rare as a queen-high Pai Gow on Pai Gow poker, ahem...[as a sad aside, many game designers seem to operate on the basis that Geoff's patented "push on a bust hand value" is a public domain mechanism. Let me state that it is not, and neither is the "push on a specific pai Gow in two-sided pai Gow poker games...] But Geoff found another elegant application of it, in support of a brilliant BJ variant....

Anyway, - Every double down and split opportunity that occurred I at first reached for the split/double amount, - then realized, Hey! This one is on the house! Cooooool....and just signaled split/double with the "evil eye" or "the bird," as we do in Blackjack sign language.

The dealer immediately threw out a "same bet split/double" lammer for that action (it looks like the old silver slot tokens, but new and shiny) and did all my splits and double downs "on the house." I won about half the splits and doubles, and lost half - to NO additional loss to me! Dang. I dig this!

On the occasions I had a dealer's nickel toke bet up while a split or double was to happen, I instinctively reached for at least to cover the dealer's toke - and the dealer put her hand out in a "No, that is not necessary either - as that TOO is on the house for the crew! - And THANK you for displaying that gesture!" The whole table noticed that!

If a dealer toke is out from the original main bet, - a "house money lammer" also follows out into action for the dealer toke, - on the split/doube also! Just fucking awesome. I looked at the dealer, and at Geoff, and they just looked back, to say, "Yeah - seriously!" Wow.

I also got two blackjacks, and ALL of them paid 3:2.

Additional notes:
1. All splits and doubles allowed by the house against ANY dealer face card allowed 100% of the time. Only the "detrimental goofball splits" (splitting 10's or 4's) or "wasteful doubles" (doubling hard 12+, or doubling 8 or less) is the player forced to pay his own cash for his folly. Like High School detention. Unfortunately, soft doubles also fall into the catagory, so you put up your only money to double a soft-17 against a six when it happens, WTF.

2. You can double on three or more cards on the house!! Like Superfun-21, but it's REALLY Super Fun when the HOUSE pays you for your AP plays....[Jesus, did "Casino Cop" Paigowdan just say THAT??!! Actually, I did, because the game was this smooth and enticing on such plays, it was unreal, you gotta play to know it...I honestly felt this way on EVERY double-down and split opportunity that even remotely pop its head up...]

3. Basic strategy for the game is great: It's just pure basic strategy, the one we all know and use, - except make any additional double or splits when it is on the house, - since it is free to the player, and paid by the house if the player wins! Perfect! Split 9's against an ace, double 9's against a 2 or 3 (you almost would anyway, as this games just gives you the "Basic strategy close calls" to you anyway - and on the house!!!)

Just Gonzo.
You gotta play it...

Quote: Paigowdan

.... and wacky splits on only 10's or 4's must require player hard chips, if you're going to do that

Please tell me you mean "wacky splits on 10s or 5s", since 4s are actually a correct basic strategy split against a dealer 5 or 6 when you can double after split (3% and 9% better than hitting versus 5 and 6 respectively)

Quote:

except make any additional double or splits when it is on the house, - since it is free to the player, and paid by the house if the player wins! Perfect! Split 9's against an ace, double 9's against a 2 or 3

9 vs 3 is a correct basic double as it is (about 2.5% better than hitting). Just saying....

Dan is proving what i have always said. Average dealer does not know basic strategy.

i absolutely hate these phony polls, where there is no negative option.
you don't really want an opinion, so what's the point?
how about this option:
i don't do side bets, i make enough money counting a -.36% game ,
why would i want to give money back to the casino?

deleted

So it seems like Switch has a winner. Congrats!

While you were there, did you wander over to the Roulette table and check out Rapid Replay?

Quote: CRMousseau

Please tell me you mean "wacky splits on 10s or 5s", since 4s are actually a correct basic strategy split against a dealer 5 or 6 when you can double after split (3% and 9% better than hitting versus 5 and 6 respectively)

Fine, Charles! :
Generally, it is a poor decision, but sometimes it is an optimal decision in certain cases, so:
Because BJ basic strategy for a brand new BJ game must be straightforward and optimzied (for Gaming rules or House rules), Geoff's new game had to be reasonably and mathematically streamlined, and Geoff made some calls to make the game dealable and playable, without generating the equievelant of a 14-page house way rules sheet for Nevada Gaming Approval, to offer the game - and he did a damn fine job.

For example, I wanted to include in my PGP strategy exceptions like: (for you pai Gow poker knowledagble people)
1. Always split three pairs with the highest pair on top, except when having three pairs of AA,KK, and xx, y, in which case the Kings go on top, because you are more likely to face Ax/KK66y, and push instead of win.

2. Alway split three kings 3 and 1 with a 10 or less top...etc.

I can write a one-page Pai Gow house way to 99.5% of optmal strategy, and you know this Charles. I can also write a 17-page House way to 99.99% of strategy, but, also, WHY, when the games needs to be playable...

In these cases the best game-play exceptions are wacky or "validly rare rules" that get an additional 0.003% house edge don't make sense, although they do make sense to a mathematician like you, Charles, okay?

For Geoff's needs, he needed an elegant game that was easy to deal and play, and would still fall with 99% of basic strategy to book - a great asset for a new-fangled BJ game - to make it NOT newfangled, but reasonable to play and deal. As it is, it plays like Gold.

For that matter, I CAN write a 14-page house way for pai Gow Poker - or the new Full-poker pai Gow-8, but we have just got to make some decisions with < 1.0% or 0.5% - to make the game GREAT and playable. That's the word....playable....= salable.

You, Charles, worked on the house way for Pai Gow-8, and I came up with a two-paragraph house way to play a Full Pker 8-card pai gow variant within 99.4% of optimal play, on 884,000,000 possible hand combinations. So we made the "push mechanism" Ace-only instead of King or less - an "adjustment." WE HAD TO MAKE SOME STRATEGY CALLS AND DECLARATIONS, to make the game dealable and playable. An adjustment.

Same with Geoff. If he had allowed splitting 4's against a dealer's 5 or 6 for another dealer game rule or strategy rule to implement - the dealer would say, "I gotta remeber that TOO - when you're training me on a new game? Na! - Send the game back to the distributor - no sale - it is too hard to deal.Would players notice or care, - most of the BJ population? No. Would AP's? Yes, and they can say 'here's an opportunity, or not an opportunity."

Sure, you split 4's against a 5 or 6, and you still can, but you put up your OWN nickle or quarter up, for the sake of playable game rules on a new product release. Otherwise it'll throw the game's house edge off, and complicate the dealer's procedures way off, - and the game doesn't hit the Nugget for an install, like it did today.

The game is great, and if I wish to split 4's against a 5, I may through the green chip down on a borderline play. I usually just hit 4's against any dealer up card, and I am not a ploppy.

99% of the players' won't either, and especially when the game needs to get 100% out - and installed.

Geoff was spot on.
play the game and SEE....

etc.

Quote: WongBo

how about this option:
i don't do side bets, i make enough money counting a -.36% game ,
why would i want to give money back to the casino?

It's not a side bet. as I recall from Switch's appearance on the Wizard's show, the point of this game is that the house provides money for doubles and splits.

But I agree with the rest. An honest poll should give you all options: positive, negative and neutral, with appropriate gradations. I don't mind in this case, though. Dan's just being enthusiastic.

Free Bet BJ is not a side bet.

It is a PURE Blackjack where WHERE your splits and double-downs are on the house, non-standard or advanced AP exceptions aside.

In fact, FB BJ has no side bets, and you know, NO one noticed their absence.

i will admit i did not know it was not a side bet, i have not read about it.
but please let's not pretend this is better for the player than a .36% edge.
without knowing anything about it, i am guessing the edge is >1%

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Someone will figure out a count strategy.

Maybe Eliot or Charles.

If they could do it, it would be "Ocean's 11."

(Ocean's #47 is when they stick up the LongHorn or the Fiesta.)

Note to Geoff:

please do not develop a Pai Gow or baccarat Game.

I Am Scared...

Quote: WongBo

i will admit i did not know it was not a side bet, i have not read about it.
but please let's not pretend this is better for the player than a .36% edge.
without knowing anything about it, i am guessing the edge is >1%

I bet you are wrong on the >1%.

" Fine, Charles! :"

Why do I always know what's coming when a post starts with " CHARLES " instead of Buzz ? LOL

Chill, celebrate Geoff's good fortune.

Me and Evenbob will handle things for you.

Oh, by the way, i will trust Geoff's believe in that his patent is bulletproof on a push 22 until
it has fought off a challenge.

I do know Stacey Perry has expressed the thought that she has a patent on the use of a lammer
on a Bj game.

Quote: Paigowdan

Maybe Eliot or Charles.

If they could do it, it would be "Ocean's 11."

(Ocean's #47 is when they stick up the LongHorn or the Fiesta.)

Yeah, I know Eliot would have trouble matching my mathematical prowess, especially after seeing my recent ( last yaer)
GED certificate. ROFLMAO !

Quote: buzzpaff

Yeah, I know Eliot would have trouble matching my mathematical prowess, especially after seeing my recent ( last yaer)
GED certificate. ROFLMAO !

No, Eliot's very fine at what he does, sometimes to our annoyance....

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Someone will figure out a count strategy.

Something tells me even a large spread and good pen. won't bring this game close to even.

Quote: RogerKint

Something tells me even a large spread and good pen. won't bring this game close to even.

They had it figured out going in....:
Great game,
no sloppy house way or strategy to it or affecting it,
a REAL sexy gimmick,
a real sexy play to it (really now, the splits and doubles in the game are the juice that PLAYERS and AP's can REALLY CHARGE),

- and a rock solid patent on the 22-push mechanism that allows for a array of fabulous new features, with a discreet house mechanism to allow them all to shine, as much as many are incorporing it, wishing they had thought of it.

This is the Challenge for either the AP player or the next BJ game designer (aside from Geoff), because for it is "game over" for the distributor that licensed the rights to this beast, and for the casino client who installs it on property. The only thing I could see was the double and split lammer usgage, and it was a cinch to deal, anyway. Absolutely a non-issue.

Just a fucking home run.

Quote: WongBo

i will admit i did not know it was not a side bet, i have not read about it.
but please let's not pretend this is better for the player than a .36% edge.
without knowing anything about it, i am guessing the edge is >1%

It's around a 0.57% edge which is better than a lot of regular 3/2 multi-deck Blackjack games around.

Dan,

Many thanks for your positive and enthusiastic comments ... I need you to write some sales literature for me I think :-)

I have just got back in and feel shattered but I'm still buzzing at the response that the game got today. Not only that but it dealt so smoothly with the dealer handling all of the splits and doubles - far more smoothly than the regular game IMO.

I'm looking forward to monitoring the game and players over the weekend.

Congratulations on your installation today too!!! - double whammy !!!

Quote: Switch

It's around a 0.57% edge which is better than a lot of regular 3/2 multi-deck Blackjack games around.

Shocker! This game is going to take over. Kudos to the GN!

You may need Teddys to represent you against the government in your future AntiTrust case ;)

Quote: Switch

Dan,

Many thanks for your positive and enthusiastic comments ... I need you to write some sales literature for me I think :-)

I have just got back in and feel shattered but I'm still buzzing at the response that the game got today. Not only that but it dealt so smoothly with the dealer handling all of the splits and doubles - far more smoothly than the regular game IMO.

Yes, and that is an interesting point. I would have though it [the lammer markers for splits/double-downs] was more difficult to deal, but when I saw it in action on an intro table being dealt by dealers just out of intro training, - it was as easy to deal like they've been dealingit for years, such a natural way to handle doubles/splits - actually making the game go faster, and with the scintallating juice of free double-downs and splits - the REAL juice of BJ "acceleration play," - I left the freaking table dizzy and stunned. Almost a sexual element to gambling, just spot-on...

No one game designer knows for sure if and when and what 100 installs will LOOK like - and lord knows it took us both a while to get the show on the road, but I think this game is different. I think I know that Roger will BLAST Missouri, AC, the Gulf port area, and California, and do some major magic and damage. You might have to explain to your wife some more business trips to Thailand: Koa-Samui, Bangkok, Phukhet Island, all on a private jet, which I cannot do unless Handcuffed to Mrs. Lubin, with her being Thai herself! [The only downside....]

Geoff, I also want you to know that you have pretty much fucked up the BJ market for game distributors who are/were placing bets on BJ expansion efforts, and you should feel some very dispicable guilt over your success (Geoff and Mrs. Geoff:"naahh!!!!!! But really, you and Roger had thrown a wrench into things into the gaming market for others, and we all have just got to adjust...) It is a screamer, and it wails....

Quote: Geoff

I'm looking forward to monitoring the game and players over the weekend.

DON'T do that at this point. take Mrs. Geoff around vegas, enjoy the town, don't be OC...

Quote: Geoff

Congratulations on your installation today too!!! - double whammy !!!

Did well too! Boulder is live with a jammed game, all of Stations is next, and Cannery upgraded to the new I-3 "flashing" G3 consoles progressive, which flash like the SHFL/Galaxy "Hockey Pucks" to prompt the next hand's bet, and working fantastic. All good.

First of all, I'm going to say the game sounds absolutely fantastic and looks like a treat to play. I'm a booster, I really am, so go easy on me here! MISERET ME ET SALVE ME and all that. I know you're just doing what you gotta do. Having said that, now I gotta do what I gotta do.

Quote: Paigowdan

Fine, Charles! : Generally, it is a poor decision, but sometimes it is an optimal decision in certain cases

You've got that backwards -- generally, it is the correct decision to make, but sometimes (based on the count) it is sub-optimal. That's why it's called "correct basic strategy". If you start a six deck shoe and get dealt two fours and the dealer gets dealt a five or a six and a card face down, it is correct to split 100 times out of 100.

Quote:

I can write a one-page Pai Gow house way to 99.5% of optmal strategy, and you know this Charles. I can also write a 17-page House way to 99.99% of strategy, but, also, WHY, when the games needs to be playable...

In these cases the best game-play exceptions are wacky or "validly rare rules" that get an additional 0.003% house edge don't make sense, although they do make sense to a mathematician like you, Charles, okay?

Well I agree actually, that's why I never bother memorizing multi-card exceptions to basic strategy save standing on a multi-card 16 vs a ten. But saying splitting 44 vs 5 and 6 only adds 0.003% is a bit unfair, because any hand with a pair is going to be exceedingly rare. Even the single most valuable pair split (88 vs 7) only adds 0.03% to the player's return (+73%EV * 0.044% occurrence)

I certainly agree with having one-page strategy. That's why I just go total-dependent and order the drinks. 4,4 vs 5-6 is part of that one page strategy. It's a big error to make.

Doubles:
* Always double 11
* Double 10 vs 2-9
* Double 9 vs 3-6
* Double A2, A3 vs 5-6
* Double A4, A5 vs 4-6
* Double A6 vs 3-6
* Double A7 vs 2-6
* Double A8 vs 6

If no double:
* VS 2-3, stand on hard 13 or soft 18
* VS 4-6, stand on hard 12 or soft 18
* VS 7-8, stand on hard 17 or soft 18
* VS 9-A, stand on hard 17 or soft 19

Pair splits:
* Always split AA, 88
* Never split 55, TT
* Split 2s, 3s, 7s vs 2-7 (my favorite memory aid: "split two, three, seven vs two THROUGH seven")
* Split 6s vs 2-6
* Split 99 vs 2-9 EXCEPT 7, since 18 dominates 7.
* Split 44 vs 5-6

That's not 17 pages, that's barely even 17 rules (I even let the 4 split be the almighty 18th rule). There's your 99.0%+ return game.

Quote:

If he had allowed splitting 4's against a dealer's 5 or 6 for another dealer game rule or strategy rule to implement - the dealer would say, "I gotta remeber that TOO - when you're training me on a new game? Na! - Send the game back to the distributor - no sale - it is too hard to deal.

See, that's the thing I don't get. You have one rule (splits are done for free). You have one exception (ten splits must be paid for). Adding "... and four splits must also be paid four" actually runs contrary to what you're saying. It's another rule to remember. It's not like it's banned in regular blackjack or anything.

Quote:

Would players notice or care, - most of the BJ population? No. Would AP's? Yes, and they can say 'here's an opportunity, or not an opportunity."

Most of the BJ population wouldn't notice if you paid even money on blackjacks, as long as the table limits were low and the dealers were hot women.

Quote:

The game is great, and if I wish to split 4's against a 5, I may through the green chip down on a borderline play. I usually just hit 4's against any dealer up card, and I am not a ploppy.

A 9% improvement over hitting is far from borderline though. Doubling A8 vs 6 (about +0.9% better) is borderline. Just to give you an example, hitting 4, 4 vs 6 instead of splitting (9.34% error) is a bigger mistake than:

* not doubling 9 vs 5 (~9.3%)
* not doubling 10 vs 8 (~8.8%)
* standing on 15 vs A (~8.7%)
* standing on 18 vs 9 (~8.4%)

... and best of all:
* hitting hard 14 vs 2 (~8.1%)
* hitting hard 13 vs 4 (~7.8%)

.... even 4,4 vs 5 (3.2% error) is a bigger mistake than hitting hard 13 vs 2 (~3.0%) or hitting hard 12 vs 5 (~2.8%)

Quote: CRMousseau

You've got that backwards -- generally, it is the correct decision to make, but sometimes (based on the count) it is sub-optimal. That's why it's called "correct basic strategy". If you start a six deck shoe ...

The game is great, and if I wish to split 4's against a 5, I may through the green chip down on a borderline play....
* not doubling 9 vs 5 (~9.3%)
* not doubling 10 vs 8 (~8.8%)
* standing on 15 vs A (~8.7%)
* standing on 18 vs 9 (~8.4%)

... and best of all:
* hitting hard 14 vs 2 (~8.1%)
* hitting hard 13 vs 4 (~7.8%)

.... even 4,4 vs 5 (3.2% error) is a bigger mistake than hitting hard 13 vs 2 (~3.0%) or hitting hard 12 vs 5 (~2.8%)

Charles, too much math!
For a Two-sentence house way - which is what Geoff and Roger needed for adoption of the casino operatores and their dealers, as well as the BJ playing "Masses" on this monster, beautiful game, -

- by adding just two more sentences over "Dealer hits soft-17..." - losses 500 more table game installs, accounting for dealer incompetence, and casino operator dissatisfaction, and tourist dissatisfaction, - and they know it. So...fuck the 4's splitting rules, and put out your own nickel down if needed to split the 4's, if it means saving 500 installs, and it does!!

Do your own AP if the game is not to your satisfaction as an AP!

A Blackjack Game description or "Game Sheet" needs to be REAL short...

So...on this game....:
T-40..........
Game rules are: GO!
Simplicity factor: GO!
Easy to deal: GO!
Same as Regular Blackjack: Go!
Game feel and juice: Gawd-awful sexy to the player...with rules AS IT IS...GO!
Ease of casino implementation: Virtually 100% with Roger and Geoff on the case, with full support of SHFL..GO!
2,000 installs @ $700 per table.month three years out = $1.4M per MONTH for Shufflemaster and Geoff:Definately GO!

And:
Game developers focusing on BJ will be destroyed...Blackjack enters into proprietary ownership licensing mode now.....

Quote: buzzpaff

" Fine, Charles! :"

Why do I always know what's coming when a post starts with " CHARLES " instead of Buzz ? LOL

Buzz,
Is your real name Charles?
If so, did you think that Dan was referring to you when he used that name?

In this thread, "Charles" is CRMousseau a.k.a. Charles R. Mousseau, Future Sight Gaming.

By the way, I just LOVE the tag line at the top right of his website.

Just a quick note to add that both Dan and Charles are both 'right' in a sense.

The math' was too strong to allow all splits so I took out the split that players would least like to do (4, 4) in order to get the house edge around 0.6%.

Quote: Switch

Just a quick note to add that both Dan and Charles are both 'right' in a sense.

The math' was too strong to allow all splits so I took out the split that players would least like to do (4, 4) in order to get the house edge around 0.6%.

Actually I was just thinking of that, you wouldn't need a specific rule for 5 splits, those probably couldn't be helped with a freebie. And I agree with that choice, despite it being a "marginal split" :P

Did you ever consider choosing aces instead, simply because there's already a restriction on them and it might have been easier to remember one special case instead of two?

" Game developers focusing on BJ will be destroyed...Blackjack enters into proprietary ownership licensing mode now....."

That's like saying 3 card poker will soon rule the world. Maybe people once thought that. I for one am motivated by Switch's success.

And I am sure other game developers will be too !

Quote: buzzpaff

" Game developers focusing on BJ will be destroyed...Blackjack enters into proprietary ownership licensing mode now....."

That's like saying 3 card poker will soon rule the world. Maybe people once thought that. I for one am motivated by Switch's success.

And I am sure other game developers will be too !

Buzz:
1. Three Card Poker did indeed rule the gaming world. It was THE most successful poker derivative in terms of installs that the gaming world had ever seen, bar none. A Casino is often not a casino unless it has Three Card Poker on premises.
2. I believe that the mechanism and improvement of Free Bet Blackjack will (- not "may") profoundly change the Blackjack market, throwing a wrench into this gaming area for lesser developers, really. Instead of a "sea of uninspiring Blackjack mediocrity," a few great games, the clear industry winners, will dominate and eliminate the stragglers once and for all over time. The superior games will rise up (like three Card Poker), and the lesser games will fall. We will have "clear water" in this area once all the sediment products sink to the floor.
3. I also believe the day of the independent game designer is really numbered. I got in at the tail end. The casino pit "real estate" will settle as the gaming market matures (Big Time commcercial gaming is relatively new). New game developers will be motivated by others success, but this does not mean the clock isn't ticking and the door isn't closing, and products will become more refined and almost impossible to improve upon. You can't squeeze onto the bus if it is filled and the doors are now closed. Only stellar designs will replace the current products so highly refined, and many will sadly be just deamers. While exhuberance is admirable, realism is better.

Well, I have been called hardheaded at times. And have even shown that trait is a reality on this forum.
None of my kids or grand kids have an ounce of quit in them. I actually have a BJ game geared for the younger market.
Once I run it past some English bloke who is rather good at BJ games ( LOL ) I intend to seek an audience with a well
known " benevolent dictator" in the industry. Of course this time , I will buy the Prime Rib. DAMN I can taste it already

" A Casino is often not a casino unless it has Three Card Poker on premises."

bwa-ha-hah-hah.
it's a fun game and all, but let's not get too carried away

Quote: buzzpaff

Well, I have been called hardheaded at times. And have even shown that trait is a reality on this forum.
None of my kids or grand kids have an ounce of quit in them. I actually have a BJ game geared for the younger market.
Once I run it past some English bloke who is rather good at BJ games ( LOL ) I intend to seek an audience with a well
known " benevolent dictator" in the industry. Of course this time , I will buy the Prime Rib. DAMN I can taste it already

You may have something inspired. Find out by talking to Roger and Geoff. Some of the best game designs simply come from a wish, something like:
1. It would be nice if: I could switch cards between the two blackjack hands I'm playing without getting arrested; (BJ Switch)
2. It would be nice if: I can win at Pai Gow and Baccarat, and get full pay when I win, instead of constantly being slammed with a commission; (EZ Bac/EZ pai Gow)
3. It would be nice if: I can aggressive split and double down on the hands I want to, when I want to, without clobbering my bankroll; (Free Bet BJ)
4. It would be nice if: I can get paid an extra bonus when the dealer busts his hand; (countless BJ side bets)
5. It would be nice if: I can play a simple, easy to play poker game, AND have a shot at big payouts. (Three card Poker)

Once the idea is laid out, implementing it is a TON of work, and these guys know the deal on that.

Hopefully I can add to the list " If would be nice if Aces Were Wild ?

Quote: WongBo

" A Casino is often not a casino unless it has Three Card Poker on premises."

bwa-ha-hah-hah.
it's a fun game and all, but let's not get too carried away

Carried away?? I find you comment clearly less than knowledgable on the gaming industry.
1. The vast Majority of full service casinos must have three card poker offered, much like Blackjack and Roulette. Try finding a casino in the Las Vegas area - or in the United States - that doesn't have it. If you find one, it is a tiny dive of a joint.
2. Fifteen hundreed installs.
3. The most successful Casino poker game in the history of commercial casino gaming.
4. It put its inventor and distributor on Easy Street.

WongBo, what's your casino game idea? Come share it with us, you are at the right place...

Quote: buzzpaff

Hopefully I can add to the list " If would be nice if Aces Were Wild ?

You may. Try playing the game with family and friends, or on a coffe table (I always do), to work out its benefits and pitfalls, and if there are pitfalls, see if they are solvable.

" WongBo, what's your casino game idea? Come share it with us, you are at the right place... "

Be careful Wongo. One day i was talking to this English bloke about my idea for free bets in BJ, and well, I better not say anymore till I speak to my attorney !

Quote: Paigowdan

3. I also believe the day of the independent game designer is really numbered. I got in at the tail end. The casino pit "real estate" will settle as the gaming market matures (Big Time commcercial gaming is relatively new). New game developers will be motivated by others success, but this does not mean the clock isn't ticking and the door isn't closing, and products will become more refined and almost impossible to improve upon. You can't squeeze onto the bus if it is filled and the doors are now closed. Only stellar designs will replace the current products so highly refined, and many will sadly be just deamers. While exhuberance is admirable, realism is better.

I wonder if Geoff would have been discouraged by this type of assessment before he started working on Free Bet Blackjack. I bet he did not. I am sure he knew the market is narrowing down as everything else, but when he felt good about his invention, he just faced it head on. Eliot and Wizard published many similar articles on game design some years ago, yet good games still came out after their articles.

Quote: UCivan

Quote: Paigowdan

3. I also believe the day of the independent game designer is really numbered. I got in at the tail end. The casino pit "real estate" will settle as the gaming market matures (Big Time commcercial gaming is relatively new). New game developers will be motivated by others success, but this does not mean the clock isn't ticking and the door isn't closing, and products will become more refined and almost impossible to improve upon. You can't squeeze onto the bus if it is filled and the doors are now closed. Only stellar designs will replace the current products so highly refined, and many will sadly be just deamers. While exhuberance is admirable, realism is better.

I wonder if Geoff would have been discouraged by this type of assessment before he started working on Free Bet Blackjack. I bet he did not. I am sure he knew the market is narrowing down as everything else, but when he felt good about his invention, he just faced it head on. Eliot and Wizard published many similar articles on game design some years ago, yet good games still came out after their articles.

I don't think anyone should be discouraged, just realistic. This is different. If you are discourageable, then I would recommend getting out of the game design business as fast as possible, and I mean RUN!
But by all means, if you have a passion for casino game design, do it, but don't rely on or expect success and riches to come as easily (read: "as possibly") as they did in the 1990's or 2000's when there were more opportunities and less competition. It is harder to compete with products like Free Bet Blackjack, Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, and Blackjack Switch, than it is with Let It Ride and Carribean Stud. I still have my regular full time dealer's job, and I suit up and show up.

The effort I spend on game design is after the bills are paid, and from a sense of "this may or may not come to be, and probably won't, but I'll give it a go, and work like hell on the footwork for it."
I doubt if Geoff would had been discouraged by my assessment, as he was already in the game design business, had already invented and distributed Blackjack Switch to great success, and knew exactly what the business entails.
But should other people be discouraged? Maybe yes, such as the Whoop Ass Poker family, who spent over one million dollars to no avail or viable product, doing the whole patent, gaming math, G2E booth rental (expensive!) route. To quote Joanne Jenio of Whoop Ass poker, "we have spent our lives' savings on this!" - and no income producing installs. Well, not sure, maybe some field trials and a few installs somewhere by this point, but they'd need hundreds of installs to get such money back, and Whoop Ass poker is below the radar if it has any. Do I think these people had a dream? Yes. Did they spend money wisely? My opinion, no. If they got a Million dollars worth of life satisfaction from it, then maybe yes.

Will good games continue to come out? I think so, along with some dogs. We do not know what will truly work until the installs tell us.
I think good games will come from people with inspiration, but also with industry experience, as the inventor of a successful medical device is usually a doctor or surgeon. Many successful game designers (read: "With real installs") have backgrounds as dealers or in casino operations, gaming math, and the like, as well as being gamblers.

I think calling this bj variant the end all beat all is a stretch. just as free bet was invented so to will the future bring another. This game hasn't made anyone rich yet. I would hold off on the celebrations.

two of my favorite TV shows are dragon's Den and Shark tank. Most UK versions and some canda version of Dragons are on UTUBe. Many are complete episodes. It is absolutely amazing what some people have put their living savings into. I remeber one mad who had invested $500,000 , 2 mortgages on his house , all family savings , etc. on what tlooked like a giant tablet, 6 of which plugged into a giant stand, so people in doctors offices could check email or view books. Units cost $77,000 each but ad revenues were supposed to
pay for them. Guess he never heard of a nook or checking email on the phone.

Worse yet he left with no investment, but looked determined to invest what little money he had left, rather than admit it was a dumb idea.

If you watch any episodes, you will see almost all the ideas are so simple you will often ask yourself " Damn, why didn't I think of that ??

I am sure Geoff has not put the champagne on ice yet. But I think he deserves to toast the game with a beer at least. Unless he is one of those Brits who likes his beer warm. What's wrong with those blokes ?

Game designers are never short of good ideas. Here is one: "player pushes on 22, or 23 or 24, or..." Go find a good game to package it.

Quote: UCivan

Game designers are never short of good ideas. Here is one: "player pushes on 22, or 23 or 24, or..." Go find a good game to package it.

That knock on your front door was the ShuffleMaster process server.

Quote: rainman

I think calling this bj variant the end all beat all is a stretch.

No.
First of all, to get an install of your new game, AND at a serious Las Vegas property such as The Golden Nuggent, is a call for Dom Perignon, even for a game like Zero or Rupert's Island Draw. VERY few people alive can say their game design saw action under the light of ANY bona-fide casino.

Secondly, this BJ variant got a LOT of action when the table went live. Great sign, that people took to it.

Third, Industry executives were impressed by the game. Another Really, really good sign.

Quote: rainman

just as free bet was invented so to will the future bring another. This game hasn't made anyone rich yet. I would hold off on the celebrations.

Fourth, the inventor of this game already invented and distributed Blackjack Switch, another strong game with hundreds of installs. Suffice it to say he's already made good money at game design.

Yes, the future will bring more new game designs.

Some will get live casino installs and great notices, and others will end up in the anonymous piles of broken dreams. And this ratio is about a thousand to one. Ask any gaming mathematician how many table game designs has he worked on: he may tell you dozens.
Then ask him how many table game designs got prominent installs and contracts from reknown game distributors like Shufflemaster. Often zero or one is the answer.

" And this ratio is about a thousand to one. "

One down, 999 to go. if I do 10 a year, I should hit when I am a mere 150 or 160 years old.

Quote: buzzpaff

" And this ratio is about a thousand to one. "

One down, 999 to go. if I do 10 a year, I should hit when I am a mere 150 or 160 years old.

Just do one GREAT one. That's all it takes.

Oh I understand its quite a feat. I and if i was this geoff guy I would be jumping up and down. Im just pointing out that the future almost always produces something better. For example first came bj switch and then free bet. And then comes?

Quote: rainman

Oh I understand its quite a feat. I and if i was this geoff guy I would be jumping up and down. Im just pointing out that the future almost always produces something better. For example first came bj switch and then free bet. And then comes?

My game. I have patiently waited, even let Switch go first.

Quote: rainman

Oh I understand its quite a feat. I and if i was this geoff guy I would be jumping up and down. Im just pointing out that the future almost always produces something better. For example first came bj switch and then free bet. And then comes?

Yes it does, the future MUST always produce better, if we are to advance.
And that is why it's now so hard to come up with great stuff in gaming. Most great stuff has already been thought of, so when you see NEW great stuff, you take notice.
In the course of my work and travels, I see a lot of new games. People in the gaming industry see tons of uninspiring new stuff all the time.
I go check out new table games, field trials, etc., frequently, and almost always I think, "eeeh...it's lame...not happening..."
Seldom do I or others in this business say, "Damn! That's Brilliant, and so well executed. Now that game has got a real shot!" I seldom say this, but I'm betting on this to be a hit.

To answer the question "And then comes?...", the answer is usually "garbage that is simply being tried." New game 'x' gets an install, gets little action, performs weakly in terms of table drop and table hold, and is out the door 1-2-3. Fade out.....VERY few new games have the staying power of a Three Card Poker, an EZ Baccarat, an Ultimate Texas hold 'em, VERY few. Few great things come along, except for every so often.

Even in Colorado I get to occasionally see a silly game being trialed. Last one was a BJ side bet called GO FISH. Bet a $1 and get a BJ.
But void in dealer gets one. Then there was a separate pack of 20 cards , Dealer would count down 3 , 4 or 5 cards, winners choices, then you got paid according to value of the next cards until a joker appeared , with red and blue card multipliers. Unfortunately I could not get a rules pamphlet , because they had none SIGH

Just what i want when I am losing, watching a guy GO FISH GRRRR