75 Tier Credits generates a $10 free slot play offer
Quote: DnalorailedMy experience with CET has been 'whatever they feel like'. Made a purposeful push to get Diamond back in June. Think I got 2500 Tier credits in one day. And then the bonus kicked in to push me over the edge. I am only now seeing good offers starting in December. I get better offers from Vegas than from my local casino.
This has always been my experience with CET properties. I drives me a little nuts. The same level of play by me...will generate wildly different amount of points and comps. It's a shame, because TR is the easiest to use of rewards programs but they are very inconsistent with offers.
Quote: RSTR is not inconsistent with offers. Chances are, when you think two cards are played very similarly, they really aren't. Refer to the "ADT" comment above.
Well lets agree to disagree. I play the same games at the same level pretty much 100% of the time. The amount of points and credits i get for that play varies widely. I understand ADT. What I also understand is that sometimes if I sit down at a $25 table and spreading 1-10 units. My average bet gets recorded as $25 despite that being my minimum bet. Other times more attentive pit personal are a bit more observant and get closer to the mark. So my ADT does vary...thus my offers vary. But my play is the same. The issue is the massively indifferent pit personal at most properties.
Now for machines that actually track your credits earned, and display them on the machine. Than yeah they are probably more consistent. But for table games. Very inconsistent.
If you wanna get rated higher, bet more when the boss is around (and play slower so you don't have to make as many big bets).
One of my friends got a new TR card, played the 10-play 10-6 double-double bonus game at the Rio, and lost $1600 while running about $4800 of coin-in. So yeah, he ran really really bad.
Never played anything again, and in fact threw his TR card in the trash.
Then a few months later, he was inundated with $450-$500 freeplay offers, including some a few days apart to where he was able to double dip by staying somewhere else for 2 days between offers. He is still getting offers 6 months later. Hasn't played another penny.
At the same time, I am a Seven Stars and get laughable $5 freeplay offers, even when I run a lot of money through the VP machines, because I am already considered "overcomped".
So the moral of the story is that you might want to encourage your wife (using a different address), father, brother, friends, etc to get TR cards and "run it once" through the machine.
I will say that perhaps my friend got the good offers because he ran so bad. It's difficult for them to compute theoretical at VP (due to skill differences), and perhaps his horrible session indicated a poor player (which he wasn't).
Quote: DanDruffYou get FAR better offers as a new player.
Doubtful.
If you have 1-2 high ADT days as the entirety of your play history, you're going to get high ADT offers.
If you have 1-2 high ADT days plus dozens of low ADT days as your play history, you're going to get mid ADT offers.
Quote: DieterDoubtful.
If you have 1-2 high ADT days as the entirety of your play history, you're going to get high ADT offers.
If you have 1-2 high ADT days plus dozens of low ADT days as your play history, you're going to get mid ADT offers.
well, lets see what I will get next month.
I already made diamond this year. $50k coin-in/5k TC.
but ALL of my previous play has been 75 TC and a couple of 0 days. for those 0 days, I was passing through the area, just played my $10 freeplay and left.
oh.. and I made a couple of hundred $ in my Diamond in a day run! :)
Quote: DieterDoubtful.
If you have 1-2 high ADT days as the entirety of your play history, you're going to get high ADT offers.
If you have 1-2 high ADT days plus dozens of low ADT days as your play history, you're going to get mid ADT offers.
This has always bothered me. And I am not specifically talking CET here. I actually play little to zero @ CET.
But here's the thing:
Player A plays once a month, puts through $10 grand in coin in. His ADT = $10 grand.
Player B, plays 8 times during the month. Twice he records big coin-in plays of say $35 grand and $30 grand. The other six visits are shorter visits, maybe stopping in for a meal and small play or maybe only playing through weekly free play offer. But those 6 visits total $15 grand coin in. That's $80 grand coin in over his 8 visits that month. His daily ADT =$10 grand as well.
So both players will generate the same offers, based on the ADT. But isn't player B really worth 8 times as much to the casino? Shouldn't he receive better offers? I think offers should be based on your ACCUMULATED total for the month, not average totals.
Quote: kewljI think offers should be based on your ACCUMULATED total for the month, not average totals.
I inquired at a casino out here in the middle of nowhere... "I noticed that my mailer offers keep changing... How do you decide what to offer?"
They handed me a poorly photocopied memo, including tier levels. (This chain doesn't usually share that sort of information, apparently - asking at other properties, they won't tell me what the tiers are, won't tell me how it's calculated, etc.)
The memo stated that their calculation was based on the greater of theo or actual casino win for the nine month period ending two months before the mailer was sent. Their offer tiers were based on a total theo/actual level over the 9 month period, then divided by 9 to make a monthly number, and that monthly theo/actual number established what tier of offers was sent.
Fundamentally, I agree - you run so much action, they ought to reward you based on that total - shouldn't matter if you run it over 2 days or 8 days or 20 days.
Of course, their costs to take the action are lower if you run it over 2 days instead of 20, so I kind of understand why they might prefer to court the business of people who play $10k/day for 2 days, rather than $1k/day for 20 days.
And yes, they seemed to know the difference between running $10k coin in on a 99.6% VP, and running $10k coin in on a 95% slot, and they did seem to change their offers accordingly.
Quote: kewljPlayer A plays once a month, puts through $10 grand in coin in. His ADT = $10 grand.
This is not correct. ADT refers to the average daily theoretical WIN for the casino. If your 10k is played on 9/6 Jacks or Better you have a lower ADT than if you played 8/5 Double Double Bonus.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThis is not correct. ADT refers to the average daily theoretical WIN for the casino. If your 10k is played on 9/6 Jacks or Better you have a lower ADT than if you played 8/5 Double Double Bonus.
Yes, ok....you are correct. But you know the point I was making.
I mean, I am an AP, so everything I do, including how much I put through a machine and in what time frame is calculated for maximum EV return.
But lets talk about a non-AP. A local. Say living here in Vegas. He stops by his local casino on Saturday or Sunday morning to wager some football. He would like to play some on a machine for a half hour, but he knows it will drive down his average. So the way the casino computes his value, they are discouraging and driving away his business. Or maybe a couple go out to the movies at their local casino. (local type casinos here is Vegas usually have non-gaming activities such as movie theaters or bowling alleys). After the movies the wife would like to play some slots for an hour, but she knows it will drive down here average, so doesn't.
Quote: DieterI inquired at a casino out here in the middle of nowhere... "I noticed that my mailer offers keep changing... How do you decide what to offer?"
They handed me a poorly photocopied memo, including tier levels. (This chain doesn't usually share that sort of information, apparently - asking at other properties, they won't tell me what the tiers are, won't tell me how it's calculated, etc.)
The memo stated that their calculation was based on the greater of theo or actual casino win for the nine month period ending two months before the mailer was sent. Their offer tiers were based on a total theo/actual level over the 9 month period, then divided by 9 to make a monthly number, and that monthly theo/actual number established what tier of offers was sent.
Fundamentally, I agree - you run so much action, they ought to reward you based on that total - shouldn't matter if you run it over 2 days or 8 days or 20 days.
Of course, their costs to take the action are lower if you run it over 2 days instead of 20, so I kind of understand why they might prefer to court the business of people who play $10k/day for 2 days, rather than $1k/day for 20 days.
And yes, they seemed to know the difference between running $10k coin in on a 99.6% VP, and running $10k coin in on a 95% slot, and they did seem to change their offers accordingly.
This is interesting because if the memo is up to date, then CET does NOT use a daily average. They are using a monthly average. I suppose that would be called a AMT.
Quote: darkozThis is interesting because if the memo is up to date, then CET does NOT use a daily average. They are using a monthly average. I suppose that would be called a AMT.
deleted. Quoted wrong post
although the thread is about CET, I believe Kewlj is talking about casinos in general or others that are based heavily on ADT.Quote: RSI don't know of any CET casino that caters to locals (Rio pretends to) or has bowling alleys or movie theatres. And most locals don't play much, if at all, at CET stores.
Quote: RSI don't know of any CET casino that caters to locals (Rio pretends to) or has bowling alleys or movie theatres. And most locals don't play much, if at all, at CET stores.
Perhaps you missed the very first line of my post where I said that I wasn't specifically talking about CET.
Almost all casino, including the local type that I was referring to use an average when determining a players value and I just think that can encourage players who care about that to not play at times that are going to bring their average down. That seems counter-productive on the casino's part to me.
CET uses both ADT and AMT. AMT stands for average market theoretical, not monthly. The poster may have been referring to another chain than CET.Quote: darkozThis is interesting because if the memo is up to date, then CET does NOT use a daily average. They are using a monthly average. I suppose that would be called a AMT.
. I don't really understand why the ADT concept bothers you unless it's your philanthropic side. Or because you have to leave your card dormant to recover. In any matter, the whole concept is what MAKES an advantage play possible at some places. Ellis Island is based strictly on how much you play over a period of time(longer than most local places) and doesn't matter how often you play, although I know you've said your experience there doesn't match up with others.Quote: kewljPerhaps you missed the very first line of my post where I said that I wasn't specifically talking about CET.
Almost all casino, including the local type that I was referring to use an average when determining a players value and I just think that can encourage players who care about that to not play at times that are going to bring their average down. That seems counter-productive on the casino's part to me.
Quote: mcallister3200. I don't really understand why the ADT concept bothers you unless it's your philanthropic side. Or because you have to leave your card dormant to recover. In any matter, the whole concept is what MAKES an advantage play possible at some places. Ellis Island is based strictly on how much you play over a period of time(longer than most local places) and doesn't matter how often you play, although I know you've said your experience there doesn't match up with others.
They are not even in our regular rotation. I know some people swear by them and their mailers. I never got it. I keep saying we are going to have to give them another look, but haven't done it yet. Maybe because I am not crazy about the clientele they draw. Lol
. Was drawl a pun? L is nowhere near w on a keyboard. Don would be all over you.Quote: kewljThey are not even in our regular rotation. I know some people swear by them and their mailers. I never got it. I keep saying we are going to have to give them another look, but haven't done it yet. Maybe because I am not crazy about the clientele they drawl. Lol
Quote: mcallister3200CET uses both ADT and AMT. AMT stands for average market theoretical, not monthly. The poster may have been referring to another chain than CET.
You seem familiar with their system.
Can you explain how they mix/confer using both ADT and AMT?
And what is meant by "market" in AMT. It is not a measurement of time, i.e. monthly?
Quote: mcallister3200. Was drawl a pun? L is nowhere near w on a keyboard. Don would be all over you.
Nope. Just sloppiness. Fixed. 'Teach' doesn't frequent this site. I can get away with it here.
"market" means the casinos in that market, like las Vegas or A.C. I don't know how they classify it in a situation like new Orleans/Biloxi/Tunica, where tunica and Biloxi are same state but new orleans is closer to Biloxi than tunica. I can't say I know exactly how CET uses the two, I read a general article on it somewhere (maybe seven stars insider or Mendelson's forum)Quote: darkozYou seem familiar with their system.
Can you explain how they mix/confer using both ADT and AMT?
And what is meant by "market" in AMT. It is not a measurement of time, i.e. monthly?
Quote: darkozThis is interesting because if the memo is up to date, then CET does NOT use a daily average. They are using a monthly average. I suppose that would be called a AMT.
This was not CET. This was a different organization.
Quote: DieterDoubtful.
If you have 1-2 high ADT days as the entirety of your play history, you're going to get high ADT offers.
If you have 1-2 high ADT days plus dozens of low ADT days as your play history, you're going to get mid ADT offers.
You're agreeing with me without realizing it.
A new player with 1-2 days ADT in his account total will get better offers than an existing player with much more overall play, but a lower ADT.
Therefore, the edge goes to the new players, as they can trigger many months of lucrative offers from just one day of moderately active play, while players with a history will put in a ton of coin-in and get inferior offers because their ADT is lower.
In addition, it is known that CET has recently reduced offers for existing players. There have been complaints all over the internet from people who have kept up the same level of play as they have in years past, but their offers are sharply declining. While there can be many factors that can be linked to the cause of this, one partial (and likely) explanation is that CET realized that they don't need to give huge offers to addicted gamblers, as they will be back regardless. CET likely figured that the promotions budget was better spent on players with a potential to become regulars, but without the history necessarily suggesting they will be back unless they are enticed in some way.
Quote: DieterI inquired at a casino out here in the middle of nowhere... "I noticed that my mailer offers keep changing... How do you decide what to offer?"
They handed me a poorly photocopied memo, including tier levels. (This chain doesn't usually share that sort of information, apparently - asking at other properties, they won't tell me what the tiers are, won't tell me how it's calculated, etc.)
The memo stated that their calculation was based on the greater of theo or actual casino win for the nine month period ending two months before the mailer was sent. Their offer tiers were based on a total theo/actual level over the 9 month period, then divided by 9 to make a monthly number, and that monthly theo/actual number established what tier of offers was sent.
Fundamentally, I agree - you run so much action, they ought to reward you based on that total - shouldn't matter if you run it over 2 days or 8 days or 20 days.
Of course, their costs to take the action are lower if you run it over 2 days instead of 20, so I kind of understand why they might prefer to court the business of people who play $10k/day for 2 days, rather than $1k/day for 20 days.
And yes, they seemed to know the difference between running $10k coin in on a 99.6% VP, and running $10k coin in on a 95% slot, and they did seem to change their offers accordingly.
They do know the difference between players who run the coin-in at a high-return VP and one that run it on a low-return VP. That's figured into your ADT.
However, there is a second factor regarding your VP skill which isn't as easily determined. Some VP players exercise perfect strategy, while others are horrendous and pretty much guaranteed losers nearly every time. And then there's those in the middle who play generally sensible, but not optimally. The machines do not report on player skill. However, player skill can eventually be inferred from their results. Of course, in the short term, anything can happen. But they attempt to make a calculation on this based upon your real results, and you will (at least initially) get better offers if you run terribly at the beginning, as you will be mistaken for a low skill player.
Obviously this does not apply to slots, which have no skill element.
The exact formula used for this is unknown. However, my friend's experience (running just $4800 coin-in at the Rio's 99.96% DDB machine, and losing $1600) backs up my assertion, as he got surprisingly lucrative offers for many months, despite just one short session at a high-return VP machine.
In the next post, I will explain why the casino prefers players who hammers a lot of coin-in over a few days, versus players who feed the same coin-in via regular play at low limits.
Quote: DanDruffYou're agreeing with me without realizing it.
Not quite.
Let's say an established player has a history of $1000 ADT, and gets a certain class of offers.
If a new player runs $1000 ADT for 2 days and gets the same $1000 ADT offer, that doesn't mean they're getting a bonus for being new.
If that new player runs $1000 ADT for 2 days and gets an offer like they were running $2000 ADT, that does mean they're getting a bonus.
Maybe some places do the latter.
But yes, with fewer days, it's easier to put in a good few days and raise the ADT. I wasn't arguing that part.
That is, you would think logic would dictate that the following three players are equal:
1) John, who feeds $100,000 coin-in to a $5-per-credit 8-5 Bonus Poker machine on January 1 and 2, but doesn't return for the next 3 months.
2) Mark, who comes approximately once a week between January 1 and April 1, with about $8000 coin-in per visit at $1-per-credit 8-5 Bonus Poker, totaling $100k coin-in during that 3 month span.
3) Rick, a local who comes every day and plays 25c-per-credit 8-5 Bonus Poker, feeding about $1100 per day, totaling $100k coin-in between January 1 and April 1.
All three of these dudes played the exact same game with the exact same odds, and fed the exact same amount of coin-in during the exact same 3-month period.
So why aren't their offers the same? And why is Rick considered a far less valuable customer?
Casinos prefer higher limit occasional players to low-limit regulars, because high limit players have a much bigger upside. They have the potential to "go off" for large sums of money when they're on tilt. They use up far fewer resources per theoretical dollar earned by the casino. This is especially true if you stay on property or use resources such as free food tickets/credits.
They're happy to have reliable, slow losers like Rick on property, but they don't want to spend a lot of money rolling out the red carpet for him. Rick will never cause a windfall for the casino on a given day, so it's not really worth spending much money getting him down there.
The Total Rewards changes in 2013 were a result of the above.
Recall that Seven Stars used to be attainable with 100,000 tier credits, and there were no such thing as "bonus tier credits" prior to 2013.
CET found that various low limit locals grinded their way to Seven Stars, despite never putting in any high limit play. While 100k tiers requires $1,000,000 coin-in, these locals would grind low limit VP for about 3k per day about 330 days per year, and they would make Seven Stars without ever risking much money. CET hated this, because these same players would then be entitled to free stays in any property in the US, the free trip, the $500 meal, etc. Yet CET didn't want these people getting comp rooms for their $3k daily coin-in. This would break out to about a $30 ADT, which wasn't what they intended for the Seven Stars program.
The 2013 changes raised the requirement 50% to 150k tiers for Seven Stars, while at the same time allowing high limit players to earn up to 3x their tier credits through "bonus tiers" awarded for heavy play in one day. So this was done to reward the high limit players, and punish the local grinders.
AMT (average marketing theoretical) attempts to figure in your usage of resources, and subtracts that from your ADT. So even if you're showing a $400 per day theoretical loss, if you're sucking up $500 per day in resources (hotel rooms, freeplay, etc), then you will actually be considered overcomped, and your offers will quickly vanish. At the same time, a guy who has a $400 ADT but never stays in the hotel and never uses any offers will have a $400 AMT, and will get much better offers than your average $400 ADT player.
I am actually an overcomped player, which is why I get squat as far as offers go, despite playing enough to rack up enough tiers for Seven Stars on a yearly basis.
Quote: DieterNot quite.
Let's say an established player has a history of $1000 ADT, and gets a certain class of offers.
If a new player runs $1000 ADT for 2 days and gets the same $1000 ADT offer, that doesn't mean they're getting a bonus for being new.
If that new player runs $1000 ADT for 2 days and gets an offer like they were running $2000 ADT, that does mean they're getting a bonus.
Maybe some places do the latter.
But yes, with fewer days, it's easier to put in a good few days and raise the ADT. I wasn't arguing that part.
New players have the edge partially because their AMT and ADT are the same. They haven't taken advantage of any offers yet, so they are viewed similar to players who play and never redeem any of the comps/perks that go with it.
They also have to play MUCH less to generate lucrative offers.
So, yes, a new player has a HUGE edge when it comes to comps received versus dollars wagered.
Quote: DanDruffThat is, you would think logic would dictate that the following three players are equal:
1) John, who feeds $100,000 coin-in to a $5-per-credit 8-5 Bonus Poker machine on January 1 and 2, but doesn't return for the next 3 months.
2) Mark, who comes approximately once a week between January 1 and April 1, with about $8000 coin-in per visit at $1-per-credit 8-5 Bonus Poker, totaling $100k coin-in during that 3 month span.
3) Rick, a local who comes every day and plays 25c-per-credit 8-5 Bonus Poker, feeding about $1100 per day, totaling $100k coin-in between January 1 and April 1.
Casinos generally have a finite number of seats.
John used the fewest seat-days. Mark used the next fewest seat-days. Rick used a lot of seat-days. John is obviously the most valuable.
("Seats" can be switched out for any other resource. The quicker the player plays, the less it costs the casino - be it drinks, running the lights, estimated toilet paper used, staffing costs, or some other metric.)
Quote: DieterCasinos generally have a finite number of seats.
John used the fewest seat-days. Mark used the next fewest seat-days. Rick used a lot of seat-days. John is obviously the most valuable.
("Seats" can be switched out for any other resource. The quicker the player plays, the less it costs the casino - be it drinks, running the lights, estimated toilet paper used, staffing costs, or some other metric.)
Agreed but it is still only casinos that run this metric.
Lets switch in your local movie theater which has a rewards program. Mine does.
For every five movies I see, I get one free ticket.
So lets say they use an ADT now. How would it look if I get one free movie while my friend gets five free movies and the only difference was he paid for all his movies in one day?
And the theaters excuse was that he used less toilet paper so they used an ADT to make him more valuable?
Quote: darkozLets switch in your local movie theater which has a rewards program. Mine does.
For every five movies I see, I get one free ticket.
Do you have a choice of price on movie tickets? That is, could you decide if you're paying table minimum price of $20, or $250?
Do you get a chance to watch 800 movies a day instead of 5?
My observation is that showing a movie takes about the same amount of time each time, and usually has the same price at a given theater, no matter who you are.
Unlike, say, a hand of blackjack or video poker, where it can be a variable price and a variable time.
ADT for Last Trip
ADT for Last 3 Months
ADT for Last 6 Months
ADT for Last year.
About eight to ten years ago I was examining the HTML source code for the Harrah's website. When you were logged in all four of those ADT numbers were available for viewing in the source code. That lasted a couple years and then they encrypted it. Someone figured out the encryption right away and we were able to view it again. Finally they wised up and just removed it from the client source code.
Movie theaters, especially in Las Vegas, have different prices for matinees and evening showings, weekend and non-weekend along with different prices for different groups like minors and seniors. Not to mention discounts for holders of players' club cards.Quote: DieterDo you have a choice of price on movie tickets? That is, could you decide if you're paying table minimum price of $20, or $250? Do you get a chance to watch 800 movies a day instead of 5? My observation is that showing a movie takes about the same amount of time each time, and usually has the same price at a given theater, no matter who you are. Unlike, say, a hand of blackjack or video poker, where it can be a variable price and a variable time.
Quote: DRichUnless they have changed it recently, CET uses the following.
ADT for Last Trip
ADT for Last 3 Months
ADT for Last 6 Months
ADT for Last year.
how does that work?!
they factor in all 4 in determining your freeplay offer?
adt of my last trip is 75 tc.
adt of last 3 months is one 5k tc and a whole lot of 75tc
Quote: SanchoPanzaMovie theaters, especially in Las Vegas, have different prices for matinees and evening showings, weekend and non-weekend along with different prices for different groups like minors and seniors. Not to mention discounts for holders of players' club cards.
Well then, it's +EV to pay for weekday matinee tickets, and use the freebies on weekend evenings (assuming that you're allowed; I'd guess that the premium movies will be "no passes", and the free show will be a pass).
Movie patrons are probably worth between $5 and $50 a day. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the difference between local grind players and the big out of town players is significantly more than 10x per day
Quote: 100xOddshow does that work?!
they factor in all 4 in determining your freeplay offer?
adt of my last trip is 75 tc.
adt of last 3 months is one 5k tc and a whole lot of 75tc
Each machine/game has its own theoretical.
If the theoretical is 3%, then 750 coin in gives a daily theoretical of $750*0.03.
My point about the movie theater was that people who see the same amount of movies get treated the same there. Why shouldn't they be treated the same at casinos? Why should showing up less days mean you are a better customer? It is totally backwards from any other business rewards program.
However, I do agree it lends itself towards plenty of AP opportunities, Amen, for those of us who are aware.
Quote: darkoz
My point about the movie theater was that people who see the same amount of movies get treated the same there. Why shouldn't they be treated the same at casinos? Why should showing up less days mean you are a better customer? It is totally backwards from any other business rewards program.
The theoretical is important because you pay for everything you get at the theater, other than using the bathroom, I guess. Although, you can't even get to where the bathrooms are in our local theater unless you have a ticket, so maybe you indirectly pay for that.
My point is basically that the casinos do offer some stuff for free. You have self-service beverages or the waitress can bring you soda/coffee in most casinos while many casinos, such as Vegas and AC, have free alcohol for players. You also have random drawings, sometimes, that are not point or ticket based and just rely upon having your card in the machine...so the daily low-limit player gets to go for that as often as he likes.
You can also have slot tournaments where the number of points one needs to earn is negligible. All of these things represent more value to the daily low-limit player than the high-roller because the former is there everyday.
Okay, so let's say a player runs through $300 every visit on a 98% VP game; he's expected to lose $6 a visit. Let's say he drinks four rum&cokes every time he goes, for free, that's a little over a bottle every six days. If the bottle costs the casino $12, now they can expect to make $24 off him in six days. Let's say that they have a game one day a week for $250 coin-in gets you a spin for free play and the minimum prize is $10 Free Play. If he still makes only $300 in total bets, and $10 of that is Free Play, he's expected to win $4 and now you make $20 off him in six days, on average.
Let's say that a different day every week there are multiple slot tournaments, twenty people per, and you only need $250 coin in to get an entry. If the top three get $100 FP, $50 FP and $25 FP, the average participant wins $8.75, so now you're making less than $2 every day he visits.
That doesn't even get into opportunity costs, he could regularly play at a machine that the bigger player likes and leaves when it is not open.
Quote: darkozYou're missing the point. A grind player who plays $100,000 in a year, by showing up over 300 days has a horrible average while the high roller who shows up one day and gambles the same amount has a huge average and fantastic comps.
I think you're missing the part where if the casino can entice the $100k/day player to show up just one more day this year, they stand to make another $2k.
Compare that to the $300/day grinder, where they'll make another $6.
Pop quiz: would you rather try and make $2000 on a play, or $6 on a play?
Right because they think he will play like that each time.Quote: darkozYou're missing the point. A grind player who plays $100,000 in a year, by showing up over 300 days has a horrible average while the high roller who shows up one day and gambles the same amount has a huge average and fantastic comps.
My point about the movie theater was that people who see the same amount of movies get treated the same there. Why shouldn't they be treated the same at casinos? Why should showing up less days mean you are a better customer? It is totally backwards from any other business rewards program.
However, I do agree it lends itself towards plenty of AP opportunities, Amen, for those of us who are aware.
Quote: DRichUnless they have changed it recently, CET uses the following.
ADT for Last Trip
ADT for Last 3 Months
ADT for Last 6 Months
ADT for Last year.
I'm afraid it changed. I wrote about this on my forum: my offers from Caesars have been cut in half because of ONE trip in July of last year. The one trip was when I allegedly played roulette with a $100 buy in and lost $48, playing about 20 minutes. However, not only was I not at Caesars Palace -- I wasn't even in Vegas on the day I allegedly played. Somehow, my account was coded as playing roulette. And I don't even play roulette.
My host told me that one bogus trip report slashed my offers for the first quarter by about half. Now my host is trying to get management to adjust my account to remove the bogus trip and I was told this might be impossible to do.
Report is here: http://forum.alanbestbuys.com/showthread.php?3114-What-is-your-daily-theoretical
Let's say BDW (Big Dick Whale) plays $500,000 in a day and has an expectation of -$10,000. He gets 2 offers of $3,000 each the following month. When he shows up for the first offer, he gets $3K in freeplay and plays his usual $500K coin in and loses $10K. Casino profits $7K.
Then we got LFJ (Little Farmer Joe) who plays every third day of the month (10 days total) and $50,000 coin in each visit, for an expectation of -$1,000 per visit and -$10,000 per month. LFJ only gets $300 in free play (2x300 per month), because he only loses $1000 per visit.
Not to mention, who do you want to spend money on to come visit? The dude who plays every few days, or the guy who played once and you haven't heard from him in a while?
LFJ is gonna show up anyway because he's a degenerate gambler (he brings his kids to the day-care at Sunset Station FFS, and he's the one saying "It was my weekend to see my daughter, we were going to go to the movies tonight......but I'm stuck $500...." [A player actually said that to me when I was dealing to him]). You don't have to entice a degenerate to gamble.
BDW on the other hand, you haven't heard from him and he hasn't played recently.
Maybe this is just conjecture (??) on my behalf, and I know some casinos do this but I find it odd. Casinos who give free play based on previous win/loss. Let's say there are two identical players, only difference is one wins $1000 and the other loses $1000. They both put in the same amount of action on the same machines blah blah blah. They both get $400 in free play. Who's more likely to stiff the casino and pick up the offer without playing any more? I think the guy who just lost $1000 might not even have much more money to play, so he stiffs them and recoups on his freeplay. I'd probably stiff them too if I was in that kinda situation. But the guy who just won $1,000 feels like the king of the world like he's invincible. "How cool is that, I won $1000 and now they're giving me MORE free money?!!! Hell yeah!"
The guy who just won money, you know he has money (duh, he just won it). The guy who just lost money...you don't know if he has more money or not, that could have been his rent or car payment for the month. I don't know if I want that guy coming back (well, I don't know if I want to give him a good amount of FP to come back because he could stiff the casino).
Just conjecture / my opinion.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm afraid it changed. I wrote about this on my forum: my offers from Caesars have been cut in half because of ONE trip in July of last year. The one trip was when I allegedly played roulette with a $100 buy in and lost $48, playing about 20 minutes. However, not only was I not at Caesars Palace -- I wasn't even in Vegas on the day I allegedly played. Somehow, my account was coded as playing roulette. And I don't even play roulette.
My host told me that one bogus trip report slashed my offers for the first quarter by about half. Now my host is trying to get management to adjust my account to remove the bogus trip and I was told this might be impossible to do.
Report is here: http://forum.alanbestbuys.com/showthread.php?3114-What-is-your-daily-theoretical
wow.. if I would have known that then I wouldn't have stopped in just to use my freeplay and leave (tc=0) when I was passing thru the area but short on time.
1day = $50k coin-in for 5k TC (diamond in a day) this month.
a whole bunch of days at $750 coin-in for 75TC.
2 days at 0 TC.
and I'm actually up a few hundred $ overall :)
edit:
TimSpeed wrote in that link-
I don't know my "theo", but I expect it's good, with earning DIAD on September 1st (60% vp / 40% slots).
Just this month <November>, I recieved $3000 FreePlay at Rincon, and just now in the mail, I got a package for Harrahs New Orleans (Free Roundtrip Airfare for 2, plus hotel)
hopefully 2 months from now I get a $3k freeplay offer!
(I doubt it tho.)
The ADT system penalizes EVERYONE.
The big whale comes in and gambles a $100,000 ADT. He gets plenty of offers. The next time he comes in and is having a bad day, only gambles $75k ADT, bang his offers go DOWN!
What company, be it supermarket, movie theater, whatever, that has a rewards program, would you continue to patronize, when they told you there system was set up so if you came and spent MORE money at their store, but less than the last time you shopped, they would lower your gifts instead of raising them.
At CVS, the clerk says, "Sorry sir, but since you shopped an additional three grand instead of four grand, we don't consider you a great customer anymore."
And when the whale plays the exact same way, he doesn't get more comps, his ADT hasn't changed at all. That's fair?
And don't discount the low rollers either. Someone said the average is $6 profit. I take Greyhound with lots of little old ladies every day from NY and I don't know any that say they lost just $6 bucks. The expected loss on low rollers doesn't work because low rollers don't have the resources to do long term. They are short term and are usually clobbered by the house edge. Even when they are winners, they gamble it back because being $20 bucks up is bullshit.
If you think the casinos don't know how effed they are with their system, why do you think they don't go out of their way to discuss ADT with the average customer. What do you think would happen if you told all the gamblers in a particular casino that they will get less offers if they come more? Forgetting degenerates who can't help themselves, how many people would feel inclined to come more when their offers will be treated less?
And finally, don't write off the low-rollers as not worth your income. Revel is a good example of that. The grinders are precisely what keeps many casinos in action. The key word being grind. The low-rollers get ground down on a daily basis. The high roller comes in, takes one shot and runs with a load of cash when he has a good day. The low-roller, even when he has a good day, its only for a grand or two and he's back the next week to grind it back down.
Quote: darkozThe big whale comes in and gambles a $100,000 ADT. He gets plenty of offers. The next time he comes in and is having a bad day, only gambles $75k ADT, bang his offers go DOWN!
Probably not. Assuming 2% house edge, that's $5M in play vs $3.75M in play. Those are probably enough to keep him in the standard to which we would like to become accustomed.
Quote: darkozThat's fair?
Casinos are advantage players. I know of no advantage player who wants "fair".
Every advantage player is looking for a game that is unfair, in their favor.
That's what advantage play is. It's finding the edge and working it.
Quote: darkozAnd don't discount the low rollers either. Someone said the average is $6 profit. I take Greyhound with lots of little old ladies every day from NY and I don't know any that say they lost just $6 bucks. The expected loss on low rollers doesn't work because low rollers don't have the resources to do long term. They are short term and are usually clobbered by the house edge. Even when they are winners, they gamble it back because being $20 bucks up is bullshit.
No, $300 coin in on a 98% game is $6 EV. $300 coin in means placing a $1 bet 300 times. It does not mean sticking $300 in a machine and playing it until it's gone. (We would expect $300 played until gone on a 98% machine to be around $15000 coin in - more or less, due to variance.)
Quote: darkozwhy do you think they don't go out of their way to discuss ADT with the average customer.
Because most people wouldn't understand it.
Quote: darkozWhat do you think would happen if you told all the gamblers in a particular casino that they will get less offers if they come more?
... but they won't, if their average daily play is consistent. What drops the offers from the "big play" is having a few days of small play mixed in.
