optimal strategy for non optimal machines?

Hi, first time poster here, yearly vegas visitor, and occaisional VP player, tho it has become my fathers game of choice on our trips...

My father the soon to be (after 46 years) a retired Jr High math teacher, wants to know if there is an optimal way to play the sub-optimal machines....or do you play them as best you can as if they were "full pay"

I know (and i think he suspects) the correct answer is..NOT TO PLAY THEM. But has someone published a strategy for these "other" machines...

we are low rollers who like to hang at the big strip props, and try to drink at the 25c machines at the bars at Aria and Bellagio and Venetian where my dad can drink his higher end booze for "free" (read the quotes please)....we can make $20 last and very occaisionally hit (dad has had one, countem) one Royal in the 15 years we have been going....wooohooo...!

so, a. forgeddeaboutit and have fun...or b. stop fooling ourselves and join the "real" word in the off strip and downtown joints if we want to hit a little more often...??

or c. learn the proper strategy for the crappy machines we are playing...

what IS the best of the worse in your opinion btw??

so what say you all?

thanks in advance

There is a proper strategy for every paytable in Video Poker, and I believe the Wizard has a calculator he is working on to help with those strategy changes. I think it will be an app for iPhone.

An example of strategy change is published in the American Casino Guide. They give two paytables for a Jacks or Better game, and the strategy differences usually come down to rules 25 and higher (meaning they are minor). Your best bet is to learn a strategy for full-pay, as the slight differences will only cost you a few hundredths of a cent per spin in the long run. Given the way you are playing it wouldn't be worth sweating the difference.

Like Tiltpoul said, every video poker game/paytable combination, even if it has a lousy return, has its own optimal strategy.

The iPhone app that is in the works will not generate strategies because the task is too CPU- and memory-intensive, even for the iPhone. It will, however, warn you if you make a strategy error during practice play mode (unless you disable warnings).

If you already know the game and paytable, you can generate its strategy using the Wizard's video poker strategy generator.

thanks to both of you for your replies...

its good to know that following our basic strat is not leading us too far down the path of ruin...

would be great to have an app set up on the iphone/smartphone/android what-have-you, that you could plug in the pay table, game and hand, and come up with the best play...of course the "legalities" of using that "live" in Vegas....??? but at least for practice....

is there a decent iphone/ipad or android "trainer" app out there...?

how 'Bout an app for either that lists basic or even advanced strat "cards"...???

i own both an ipad and an android phone, so i am interested in both...

WinPoker does a good job of analyzing games. It's available for iPad.

I'm curious as to JB's statement that there's not enough processing power in it to do the job... it appears to do it even if you change the pay tables, but I never compared directly to another published source.

Quote: thecesspit

WinPoker does a good job of analyzing games. It's available for iPad.

I'm curious as to JB's statement that there's not enough processing power in it to do the job... it appears to do it even if you change the pay tables, but I never compared directly to another published source.

The app I'm working on for the Wizard will be able to analyze games to compute a return like WinPoker does. It will even be noticeably faster than the WinPoker app.

That's not what I was referring to. The task that requires too much processing power and memory is generating a strategy — a list of plays of what beats what, like the strategy generator I linked to above. It's just not feasible with the iPhone's hardware, at least not without some major rethinking of how to go about it.

Quote: shantytown

we are low rollers who like to hang at the big strip props, and try to drink at the 25c machines at the bars at Aria and Bellagio and Venetian where my dad can drink his higher end booze for "free" (read the quotes please)....we can make $20 last and very occaisionally hit (dad has had one, countem) one Royal in the 15 years we have been going....wooohooo...!

You seem to be aware of the rules:
Get away from the Glitz and Glamor of the Strip,
Get away from the Deep Rugs; Thou shalt seek Linoleum;
Seek out the better machines which, alas, are usually not the ones inside the upscale bars.

Nothing wrong with violating all of them intentionally. Nothing wrong at all.

But in seeking the upscale atmosphere and upscale booze and upscale bartenders you are probably at low-end machines. I would generally rank the slot machine payouts at the Venetian as the lowest on the strip and only the Airport Concession being any lower.

Okay.. so you avoid Dottys, Casino Royale, and the entire Boulder Strip. You want good booze rather than cheap beer. Fine! I would actually agree with your choices. This is a re-affirmation of the "free" being in knowing quotes! Its a choice that many choose to make. You want the atmosphere of luxury rather than the simplified, Plain Vanilla offered off strip.

Have you made any studies of the differences between "Fine booze from waitresses" at the slot machines versus Fine Booze from the bartender? Faster service? Slower service? Better Top Shelf stuff or not? Do you have to play faster under the watchful(?) eye of the bar tender?

I guess the better strategy would be to get Fine Booze at a slower game or at a better VP machine out on the floor. The slower game would have a more profound effect I would think the ever so slightly better VP machine would require alot of coin-in to make a difference.

If you're making $20 "last a while" you're not putting enough coin through the machine to make the paytable or strategy mean much of anything. A $20 swing at a 25c machine is nothing. See a pair or better, hold it. Otherwise choose whatever cards look good.

And only play when you hear, "Cocktailsssss? Drinkssssss?"

Or, better, pick a game that is commonly found in the strip casinos like 7/5 Bonus Poker, and learn basic strategy and play it. Again, only when you hear the waitress coming. If you tip $1 a drink, she'll keep coming whether you're playing $5000/hr through or $10/hr.

Drinking more than lightly and playing video poker competently are seldom coincidental. At least for me.

Quote: QuadDeuces

If you're making $20 "last a while" you're not putting enough coin through the machine to make the paytable or strategy mean much of anything. A $20 swing at a 25c machine is nothing. See a pair or better, hold it. Otherwise choose whatever cards look good.

This makes complete sense...but since Dad has a math mind, he cannot, in his good conscience "just choose whatever looks good"..and he passed that trait on to me...

Quote: QuadDeuces

Or, better, pick a game that is commonly found in the strip casinos like 7/5 Bonus Poker, and learn basic strategy and play it.

speaking of...in these multi machines what is "the best of the worse"...dad likes to play DW I usually play a simple JoB, but feel i should learn BP or DB or DDB or something else??? Is one "bad" game better than another "bad" game

Quote: QuadDeuces

Drinking more than lightly and playing video poker competently are seldom coincidental. At least for me.

NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS!!! Can't argue there!

I really can't answer your question because the choice of games varies so much at the different casinos. You mentioned Aria, Bellagio, and Venetian. I don't see anything at any of those places that I would play, especially if I was trying to make $20 last a while.

You know about www.vpfree2.com right?

If I wanted to maximize bankroll over the longest period, I would choose the game with the best combination of paytable, low denomination, and low variance. If 5-line nickels was available at the same paytable, I'd pick it over single-line quarters.

I go to the casino to play Video Poker, not to be in the casino, and not to drink so I play off-strip where good games with 100%+ returns can be found. If I want to drink and gamble, I play craps.

I have never played more than a single line machine, does multi-line play much different, i honestly never understood how it works...silly huh?

i do know of vpfree2...i use it for our one day downtown to find good machines...

I was looking mainly for my Dad, he is getting older and has trouble standing for a length, so his long session craps days are limited...tho he does quite enjoy that game too...he finds the VP relaxing, and likes to chat with the bartenders, its part of his relaxing on his vacation...

The reason i ask, is that often, if we get a nice bartender, they will "help" us with our play from time to time...i dont honestly know how much there advice is "good" so we do take it with a grain of salt...however, i have heard from more than one, that I/we shouldnt play DW or Job, but BP or DB, or DDB instead "if we are looking to hit more"....this was the reason i asked....

i think i am going to write down a list of pay-tables and their respective %'s and bring it with me so i can pick the better game...

I'm with you Shanty... when I'm in town with the boys and we are drinking, we will be at the vpoker bars. Yes we will be playing garbage paytables but we don't care. We play slow and we drink fast. On our last trip a Mirage bartender had to throttle down one of the boys on the drinks since he was going thru them so fast.

Quote: shantytown

i think i am going to write down a list of pay-tables and their respective %'s and bring it with me so i can pick the better game...

That's about all you can do. Just understand that you should adjust your strategy according to the paytable. With JoB, I think the flush payout (5 or 6 coins) is probably the most important. Full House doesn't change the strategy as much because you typically hold pairs, 3-of-a-kinds, and 2-pairs regardless. Not sure about the other games.

Quote: shantytown

if we get a nice bartender, they will "help" us with our play from time to time...i dont honestly know how much there advice is "good" so we do take it with a grain of salt...however, i have heard from more than one, that I/we shouldnt play DW or Job, but BP or DB, or DDB instead "if we are looking to hit more"....this was the reason i asked....

The bartender's goals are not the same as yours. It sounds like you are looking for higher ev and lower variance. Bartenders (and this applies to dealers at table games too) don't care about the ev for the player; they just want to steer you toward the highest variance games/plays in the hopes that you'll give them a tip if you hit something big.