Disagreement with friend
So I was discussing video poker with some friends, and one of my friends (who is generally pretty smart) tells people to always play the double up feature, as it only decreases the house edge. I argued that you should always play the double up then, which would inevitably lead to a loss (theoretically, it could go on infintely, but let's be realistic).
Furthermore, I argued that if you were playing a game that had a player edge, it would be foolish. He disagreed on both accounts.
I feel it's obvious if the player has an edge to not play it. Furthermore, I feel that playing the double up feature is nothing more then gambling with no disadvantage.
I would not discourage people to play it, but when dealing with life changing money, I would not take the double up...
1) Video Poker. You get comps/points and there is a certain house edge depending on the rules. The edge is constant assuming your strategy stays the same.
2) Doubling. This is just a coin flip with a 50/50 chance.
#2 doesn't affect #1. But your overall edge would include amount bet via #1 and the amount bet via #2. I've never doubled because that isn't the game I want to play. I didn't come to a casino to play casino war. :)
Quote: TriplellSo I feel like this is so obvious, that it shouldn't be discussed, but my friend disagreed hardcore with me on this, and I began to question it myself afterwards.
So I was discussing video poker with some friends, and one of my friends (who is generally pretty smart) tells people to always play the double up feature, as it only decreases the house edge. I argued that you should always play the double up then, which would inevitably lead to a loss (theoretically, it could go on infintely, but let's be realistic).
Furthermore, I argued that if you were playing a game that had a player edge, it would be foolish. He disagreed on both accounts.
I feel it's obvious if the player has an edge to not play it. Furthermore, I feel that playing the double up feature is nothing more then gambling with no disadvantage.
I would not discourage people to play it, but when dealing with life changing money, I would not take the double up...
I believe it was Bob Dancer who had an interesting article on the Double Up feature. Players who can play VP at an advantage or near advantage with do not benefit at all from playing it. However, he pointed out most VP players do not play at that level, so for those people, they will play longer at a 0% house edge. He didn't encourage the play, but certainly didn't discourage it at all.
However, he pointed out a friend who was an AP who would play the Double Up on a $5, 5-line advantage machine (i think DDB) when dealt 4-of-a-kind before the draw. His argument: The win would necessitate a Hand Pay where he would be obligated to tip. He would play the double up 3 times, before cashing out. This meant he was only tipping 1/8 times for the same win. Dancer pointed out in the article the logic was absolutely correct, but 7/8 of the time he would be cursing himself as he would be giving up big wins.
Nowadays, my guess is the machine locks up before the feature is offered, so it's probably a moot point now...
There is no reason why video poker should be a negative game. It is hard to find a 100% game these days, but with points and comps one can get over 100%. As Stacy said, you don't get any credit for the doubling. So for smart players I would not double. For the rest, do so in moderation.
I'm at Caesars about a year ago when an Asian gentlemen was playing $5 DDB at the machine next to me. He is dealt quad aces, and holds them. $4,000 is his, and the "double up?" button lights up. Without saying a word, he pushes it, and the game screen changes.
In Japanese, he starts asking about what's happening. Later, we found out that when the "Double Up?" button lit up he pushed it thinking it was for information. He didn't know that it triggered the game.
The floor people came over and had a discussion. Im not exactly sure what was decided, but I think they said that if he lost the double up, they would give him the original $4,000 he won. So, he had nothing to lose.
He won the double up.
At most casinos you can request that the double up be disabled.
There is no double up on royals, but there is on everything else.
Most of the machiens at Caesars have the double-up disabled. I've never seen it at Harrah's Rincon. Those are my two VP joints.
Quote: AlanMendelsonJust a side story about the double up feature:
I'm at Caesars about a year ago when an Asian gentlemen was playing $5 DDB at the machine next to me. He is dealt quad aces, and holds them. $4,000 is his, and the "double up?" button lights up. Without saying a word, he pushes it, and the game screen changes.
In Japanese, he starts asking about what's happening. Later, we found out that when the "Double Up?" button lit up he pushed it thinking it was for information. He didn't know that it triggered the game.
The floor people came over and had a discussion. Im not exactly sure what was decided, but I think they said that if he lost the double up, they would give him the original $4,000 he won. So, he had nothing to lose.
He won the double up.
At most casinos you can request that the double up be disabled.
There is no double up on royals, but there is on everything else.
Most of the machiens at Caesars have the double-up disabled. I've never seen it at Harrah's Rincon. Those are my two VP joints.
Wait, so he wasn't required to forfeit the extra $4000 he had won? That's some pretty good service if this is true...
after a winning hand you have the choice of a double or nothing bet, called the double up.
the computer chooses a card, and you have four cards to choose. if you beat the computer's card, you win and double up.
of the four cards you choose, none might beat the computer's card, or all might beat, or perhaps only one.
years ago when I didnt know what I was doing I played the double up and won three hands in a row starting with trips on the first hand, and then lost it all on the fourth double up attempt. on the third attempt the computer had a K and I drew an ace. on the fourth attempt the computer had an Ace, and I drew a 3.
theoretically, its a 50-50 shot.
some VP players will always play the double up feature on small wins including break even hands, like when they get two pair in double double bonus, or something like that.
I havent played the double up feature since that one time -- when I blew a nearly four figure win by being greedy.
Yes, the floor people did make that decision to give the player a free ride since he didnt know what he was doing. I heard about a similar incident. And on another occasion a couple playing one credit at a time accidentally pushed the button for five credits on a $5 VP machine. They called a floor person, gave them a refund of the $25 and "killed" the play.
Quote: AlanMendelsontheoretically, its a 50-50 shot.
Is it, though?
If given a freshly shuffled deck, and I draw a card for you to beat, you will have a slightly LESS than 50% chance to win. Ties do go to the house, right?
So unless there are some caveats I am unaware of, like "no duplicate cards" or "ties push", going for the double-up is an overall loser.
| House card | Win % |
|---|---|
| 2 | 94.1% |
| 3 | 86.3% |
| 4 | 78.4% |
| 5 | 70.6% |
| 6 | 62.7% |
| 7 | 54.9% |
| 8 | 47.1% |
| 9 | 39.2% |
| 10 | 31.4% |
| J | 23.5% |
| Q | 15.7% |
| K | 7.8% |
| A | 0.0% |
| Average | 47.1% |
Quote: thlfI can gamble but I can't win.
Said FinsRule everytime he goes to Vegas.
Quote: WizardOne could make comparisons to taking the odds in craps. My answer is that it depends on why you are playing. If you are playing a negative EV game, and you don't care about points, then the double up feature does lower the combined house edge, much as the odds in craps does.
I ahve to accept your statement that it lowers the house edge, seeing as you're far mroe experienced and knowledgeable about such things. But I also must consider my judgment, which tells me it's not quite the same thing as the odds bet in craps.
In craps the odds bet depends on the same result as the line bet. You get paid both bets if the point is made. The double up depends on an event independent of the VP result. So, if you could take odds in VP and got paid real odds for that due to the result of the draw, then they'd be the same.
Am I making sense? I don't speak math, really. So evenw hen something's clear in my mind I've trouble turning it into words.
Anyway, my only experience with the double up "feature" is in online and other VP simulations. Overall I don't like it as I feel I'm risking a win, and you know the old adage about a bird in hand, right?
As to the OP question, it seems clear to me if you have the edge, then playing a zero edge bet reduces your advantage. That's basic arithemtic, right?
Quote: AlanMendelsonThere is no double up on royals, but there is on everything else.
Is there a limit to the number of double ups you can take? If unlimited, the remote possibility would exist to "break the bank", with a double up win netting more than the cash equivalent of the entire corporation. I don't think it would take too long a string of wins to do it either...
1
2
4
8
16
32
64
128
256
512
1024
2048
4096
8192
16384
32768
65536
131072
262144
524288
1048576
2097152
4194304
8388608
16777216
33554432
67108864
134217728
268435456
536870912
1073741824
Start with $1... 31 doubles later, you have way more than a billion. Start with more... egads...
Also, when playing machines that have it enabled, I will ALWAYS "Double Up" on a single pair..
Quote: kmumfI would love to meet the person with the balls to double up with some of those numbers. Would be something if someone did it.
Just theoretically, if you were playing 25c vP, and you double'd 10 times in a row, you'd have the equivalent of a Royal Flush...might actually be EASIER than REALLY getting a Royal Flush....
Quote: kmumfI would love to meet the person with the balls to double up with some of those numbers. Would be something if someone did it.
There's a name for gambler's like that: "Degenerate"... But I would still admire a million dollar "double up" winner.
Does anyone know for certain whether or not there is a "max payout", or limit to the number of doubles?
Quote: NareedHow about this question: does anyone know of a casino with the double up active in any VP? I'd be game to try several consecutive doubles on a trips win on Deuces Wild or a pair win in Jacks or Better.
There is the double up feature "live" on a few of the machines under the "small dome" at Caesars. This is one of their high limit slots areas with $5 and higher denomination. I don't know of it being active on the lower denomination VP machines since most players don't want it. I have never seen anyone willingly play it except for one jerk... me... when I first started playing VP.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThere is the double up feature "live" on a few of the machines under the "small dome" at Caesars. This is one of their high limit slots areas with $5 and higher denomination. I don't know of it being active on the lower denomination VP machines since most players don't want it. I have never seen anyone willingly play it except for one jerk... me... when I first started playing VP.
Thanks!
I wouldn't play high limit VP anyway... I have played some VP at Caesars in the regular floor, on my first trip before I knew not all VP is created equal, and the feature didn't appear. So that would seem to be out.
Since then I've played at a variety of places and have never seen it.
Quote: AyecarumbaThere's a name for gambler's like that: "Degenerate"... But I would still admire a million dollar "double up" winner.
Does anyone know for certain whether or not there is a "max payout", or limit to the number of doubles?
IGT used to have a hard limit of 20,000 credits that could be doubled. They did not limit te number of doubles, so you could double a Jacks pay many more times than a quads pay. I'm not sure if it has changed in the last 4 years. It is also a configurable option where the casino can limit the double up to a certain dollar amount, so long as it doesn't exceed 20,000 credits. In limited stakes jurisdictions, like Colorado, the maximum double up wager must be set to $100 if enabled. But, I've never seen double up in CO.
Well I didn't do very good in my first round so I knew I needed to have a great second round to reach the semis. The machines were JOB...but they had the double-up feature activated on all machines, so I decided I would have to gamble with it to get a good score. I got a full house and doubled and won three times, and that got me into the semis (where I was guaranteed at least my $125 back).
In the semis my goal was to be in the top three as that was where the big $$$ was. I got a quad for 125 and doubled once and won, and that was good for third and I was onto the finals!
In the finals it was me and two other guys, one who drew the machine next to me and the other was a few machines away. I had no clue how the distant guy was doing but the guy next to me was doubling quite often and losing ( I could see and hear him cussing his machine out hehe). Anyways before I had played all my credits off the guy next to me was done and I was ahead of him, and then the director told me I didn't need to continue as I had beaten both other players. At the awards banquet I received a nice plaque and $5,500!
Quote: NareedHow about this question: does anyone know of a casino with the double up active in any VP? I'd be game to try several consecutive doubles on a trips win on Deuces Wild or a pair win in Jacks or Better.
At The Atlantis in Reno, "Double Up" is active on quite a few machines...that's where I played it...
Quote: CrystalMathIGT used to have a hard limit of 20,000 credits that could be doubled.
That would be $5000 on a 25c machine...wow...that would mean you'd get to 11 doubles? (10 would get $1280, 11 would get $2560)
I think what'd be even more funny is GETTING to the W2G FROM a pair. (Double 10 times)
I would imagine THAT would get the "Double Up" feature turned off right then and there.
Quote: TIMSPEEDAt The Atlantis in Reno, "Double Up" is active on quite a few machines...that's where I played it...
Thanks. If I ever go to Reno I'll look it up.
Quote: CrystalMathIGT used to have a hard limit of 20,000 credits that could be doubled. They did not limit te number of doubles, so you could double a Jacks pay many more times than a quads pay. I'm not sure if it has changed in the last 4 years. It is also a configurable option where the casino can limit the double up to a certain dollar amount, so long as it doesn't exceed 20,000 credits. In limited stakes jurisdictions, like Colorado, the maximum double up wager must be set to $100 if enabled. But, I've never seen double up in CO.
Thanks for this. I don't recall if a "double up max payout" was posted when I saw the feature on many machines several years ago, but it could have been. After the team with inside knowledge was busted taking advantage of a security hole that opened when a technician would first turn on this feature, it disappeared from Las Vegas pretty quickly.
Quote: AyecarumbaThanks for this. I don't recall if a "double up max payout" was posted when I saw the feature on many machines several years ago, but it could have been. After the team with inside knowledge was busted taking advantage of a security hole that opened when a technician would first turn on this feature, it disappeared from Las Vegas pretty quickly.
They didn't have it in their help screens, the machine would just not offer double up when it reached the limit.
Quote: TIMSPEEDJust theoretically, if you were playing 25c vP, and you double'd 10 times in a row, you'd have the equivalent of a Royal Flush...might actually be EASIER than REALLY getting a Royal Flush....
It's far easier - winning 10 in a row is 1 in 1024. Hitting a royal under normal circumstances is about 1 in 40,000, or 1 in 23,000 even if you're always going for it.
Quote: weaselmanI am having a stupid moment. If betting on "double up" does not change the house edge (and I perfectly understand that it does not, and why), then how come taking "free odds" in craps does? What is it that makes it different?
When you take the double up you are not wagering any extra money. Odds bets let you put in more money at zero house edge, diluting the edge on your pass line bet.
Quote: jml24When you take the double up you are not wagering any extra money. Odds bets let you put in more money at zero house edge, diluting the edge on your pass line bet.
If the win from your original VP bet was more than the original VP bet, are you not in fact risking more (and potentially winning more) than your original bet? I can understand that it is hard to figure since you can't play the double up without winning a VP hand, so they are not exactly independent bets.
Quote: jml24When you take the double up you are not wagering any extra money. Odds bets let you put in more money at zero house edge, diluting the edge on your pass line bet.
Well, that's exactly what I don't get - how does that matter?
Suppose, you bet N bucks on free odds, and get N/q with probability q, or lose it all with (1-q).
So, the EV is ev0 = q(N/q-N) - (1-q)N = 0 (surprise, surprise).
Now, say, you bet 1 on pass line, winning even money with probability p.
Then, your combined EV is p*(1+ev0) - (1-p) = 2p - 1 + ev0 = 2p-1.
What is wrong with this logic?
Do I really want to risk a win on a coin flip? It's hard enough winning the first time, do I want to risk losing it the second time?
Now, there are players who will play the "double up" if they just got an even pay -- say a pair of Jacks on Jacks or Better. The choice there is this:
Do you want to play the "double up" and turn your $1.25 (on a 25-cent machine) into $2.50. OR ...
Would you rather wager the same $1.25 for possibly hitting two pair, trips, straight, full house, quads, SF, royal... or maybe another paying pair or just losing the same $1.25 you put at risk for a simple double or nothing bet?
If I were to risk $1.25 I would want a better potental return than just $2.50 on a coin flip.
I would not risk anything bigger than that on a coin flip, so I would pocket two pair.
Of course this is based on my personal experience where I once played the double up several times and ended up losing a big chunk of money because I played the double up one too many times.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThis is the only logic I need for deciding whether or not to play the double up feature:
Do I really want to risk a win on a coin flip? It's hard enough winning the first time, do I want to risk losing it the second time?
Now, there are players who will play the "double up" if they just got an even pay -- say a pair of Jacks on Jacks or Better. The choice there is this:
Do you want to play the "double up" and turn your $1.25 (on a 25-cent machine) into $2.50. OR ...
Would you rather wager the same $1.25 for possibly hitting two pair, trips, straight, full house, quads, SF, royal... or maybe another paying pair or just losing the same $1.25 you put at risk for a simple double or nothing bet?
If I were to risk $1.25 I would want a better potental return than just $2.50 on a coin flip.
I would not risk anything bigger than that on a coin flip, so I would pocket two pair.
Of course this is based on my personal experience where I once played the double up several times and ended up losing a big chunk of money because I played the double up one too many times.
Wait...so you are offered a completely fair bet, for the price of a candy bar, and you refuse to take it? What kind of gambler are you? You want better then 1:1 on a 50/50 bet? Tell me where you can get those odds.
Say you won your "money back" in a jacks or better game the double up option makes no sense. At best you would double your bet money -- a dollar-25 can become 2.50.
But if you wagered that same 1.25 without the double up bet, you could also win 1.25 or you might hit trips, or two pair, or a straight, or quads -- or you could lose it.
I certainly wouldnt risk a double up bet on a larger payoff... say I hit quads. If I risked a double up bet on quads (say it paid 125 coins) the result would either be 250 coins or zero. On the other hand, if I didn't make the double up bet I would have 125 coins for future bets that might return even more.
Here is a way to look at it: If you're the kind of gambler who would take his entire bankroll and put it on black for one spin, then the double up bet is your cup of tea. I would rather take my bankroll and divide it up over multiple bets to give myself a better chance of hitting more --albeit smaller -- wins.
Here's a real life case in point:
Next week I go to a casino that offered me $2500 of free play. My options will be to either play big bets, or play small bets. I could go to $10 video poker or $1 video poker (if the pay tables were the same). And if the pay tables were the same, I would use my $2500 at the $1 games. (But in this case the $1 pay tables suck so I'll be at a $5 game.)
Quote: TriplellWait...so you are offered a completely fair bet, for the price of a candy bar, and you refuse to take it? What kind of gambler are you? You want better then 1:1 on a 50/50 bet? Tell me where you can get those odds.
If you're playing a VP machine that's greater than 100% payback when factoring in comps and cashback then it's not a good bet at all. It doesn't add to your coin-in and therefore you don't get comps or cashback for that action.
