VP double up question
Let’s just assume that you doubled up once on all wins (including Royal Flushes.)
I don’t know if anyone is able to calculate it but I would find it very interesting to know.
Although I may have just exposed my ignorance.
Quote: CroupierI dont know if it would alter the return. The double up to me seems to be a 50/50 gamble, so over the long term it would stay exactly the same.
Although I may have just exposed my ignorance.
As long as it's a coin flip, it does nothing for the return.
However, if you always took it once, it would add to the variance a fair bit.
Rob : if you were 10 units shy of your goal for the day, and got an 8 unit Flush on 8/5BP, would you take a 50/50 double up to hit the target?
Like the 100% return on the double up feature combines with the 99.54% return on the game itself to raise the games return somewhere between 99.54%-100%.
Maybe I should go back and check my sources; e.g. Wizard of Odds.
Quote: flydogi have not seen the double up feature on the VP machines at the reservations.. do GameKings have the double up feature?
They have them in Wisconsin, played them last month.
Quote: petroThis is very odd. As I have always been told that the double up feature slightly increases the return.
Like the 100% return on the double up feature combines with the 99.54% return on the game itself to raise the games return somewhere between 99.54%-100%.
Maybe I should go back and check my sources; e.g. Wizard of Odds.
If that were true, you'd double up every winner until you lose it.
Quote: RobSingerIf that were true, you'd double up every winner until you lose it.
HA HA
Quote: RobSingerIf that were true, you'd double up every winner until you lose it.
Usually they have a set amount you can double up to; e.g. a 2k limit.
Or sometimes you can only double up a particular amount of times; e.g. 4 times max.
I have noticed in real life a lot of the casinos taking out the double up feature from their games.
This is also common to see on the internet. At least I can say for sure that the casino's view the double up feature as a threat.
Quote: petroI have noticed in real life a lot of the casinos taking out the double up feature from their games.
This article on how the double up feature was used to scam casino's is probably the biggest reason you don't see it very often any more.
Quote: petroThis is very odd. As I have always been told that the double up feature slightly increases the return.
Like the 100% return on the double up feature combines with the 99.54% return on the game itself to raise the games return somewhere between 99.54%-100%.
Maybe I should go back and check my sources; e.g. Wizard of Odds.
What is true is that using the double-up feature as part of your total action reduces the house edge on that action. For instance, playing 800 hands of .25 9/6 JOB means $1000 coin-in, which results in an expected loss of $4.60, but if you instead played 400 hands and played the double-up feature one time each hand (win or lose), your expected loss would now be only $2.30 for that $1000 action, or a 99.77% return.
This equation can be altered by whether or not slot club benefits accrue on the double-up. A LOT of savvy players exploited the opportunity to earn slot club benefits for no -EV other than the base game's initial hand, which could easily bring a game into positive territory. This, in turn, has caused many casinos to set the double-up feature so that it didn't award slot club points--but this is by no means universally true.
Quote: PaulEWogThis article on how the double up feature was used to scam casino's is probably the biggest reason you don't see it very often any more.
This is indicative of the mindset that says that any player who plays at an advantage must be somehow "scamming" the casinos. If the casino offers a bet, and you take it, how are you "scamming" them??????????
Quote: CroupierI dont know if it would alter the return. The double up to me seems to be a 50/50 gamble, so over the long term it would stay exactly the same.
Although I may have just exposed my ignorance.
No ignorance here. The house edge remains the same. People have memories, but cards don't.
I get a lot of questions from people about this in real life too.
I asked Wizard to have a look and he said; “dm has the right answer.”
Dm said; “It increases the return based on total bet, but expected loss does not change.”
Wizard discusses in depth the advantage of double up in VP here.
Wizard says; “..taking the double or nothing feature will increase the total money bet at no cost to the expected loss, thus lowering the overall house edge.”
If it lowers the HE then it must raise the return of the game.
One thing I don't understand is when dm says; “… expected loss does not change.”
Can dm or anyone make this clearer what this means?
Thanks
Quote: camaplIt just occurred to me, after reading through a few of the threads in this section, that the double-up feature could be a good way to captitalize on loss rebate promotions. Any thoughts?
Doesn't work, most casinos don't give you any comps for wagering on a double up from what I've read.
Quote: SilentBob420BMFJDoesn't work, most casinos don't give you any comps for wagering on a double up from what I've read.
Wagering double up on a vp machine will not count toward points. This is because the game does not count this as a separate wager, it simply puts the resolution of the game on hold until you lose or quit doubling.
Quote: CrystalMathWagering double up on a vp machine will not count toward points. This is because the game does not count this as a separate wager, it simply puts the resolution of the game on hold until you lose or quit doubling.
Ah yes, that makes perfect sense. Comps have nothing to do with win or loss (on machines anyways), so the casino just sees you wagered 5 coins, it doesn't see you went up to 500 via doubling, then lost it all.
