10% Loss Rebate

Hello everyone,

I visited a casino that offers 10% loss rebate on actual losses and they don’t seem to differentiate between slots and video poker. They also have Deuces Wild on a 25c machine.
I don’t know much about exploiting loss rebates but would something like this be exploitable in any way?

Thanks

Is it a one-time thing? Terribles used to offer a 10% rebate, but it was a one-time deal, and they would string you out for a long time while they verified your losses. I maxed them out for $100, but you'd think I took the money from the pit guys' kids.

deleted duplicate post.

Quote: gunbj

Hello everyone,

I visited a casino that offers 10% loss rebate on actual losses and they don’t seem to differentiate between slots and video poker. They also have Deuces Wild on a 25c machine.
I don’t know much about exploiting loss rebates but would something like this be exploitable in any way?

Thanks
link to original post

It's beatable, but with caveats. It could be very good, or it could be very marginal.
Would need more details.
Maximum rebate allowed? What's the minimum you need to lose?
When can you get your rebate? How do you get your rebate?
Does it reset? IE what happens if you win 1k this week, but next week you lose? Do they keep a forever-running tally?... Therefore rendering your account practically useless after a big win.

What Paytables do they offer, and what are the highest VP denominations?

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: gunbj

Hello everyone,

I visited a casino that offers 10% loss rebate on actual losses and they don’t seem to differentiate between slots and video poker. They also have Deuces Wild on a 25c machine.
I don’t know much about exploiting loss rebates but would something like this be exploitable in any way?

Thanks
link to original post

It's beatable, but with caveats. It could be very good, or it could be very marginal.
Would need more details.
Maximum rebate allowed? What's the minimum you need to lose?
When can you get your rebate? How do you get your rebate?
Does it reset? IE what happens if you win 1k this week, but next week you lose? Do they keep a forever-running tally?... Therefore rendering your account practically useless after a big win.

What Paytables do they offer, and what are the highest VP denominations?
link to original post

Axel gave a great answer. Most loss rebates do not have a clawback provision which means you have to lose back any previous win. However, it can limit the value if they do.

Which deuces variety? The house edge is really critical. The max denom that you are willing to play is also critical. A loss rebate is the most valuable if you can lose the maximum allowed amount in as little coin-in as possible. The math is simple. Let us say it is a max $100 back on a $1000 loss. Playing VP at $125 per hand, you could lose this in 8 hands. Let us say the average situation is that you lose $1000 in 20 hands when you lose, which happens 75% of the time. The other 20% of the time, you quit because you are ahead. Let us say these winning session bring the average number of hands played down to 16.

The net is that you get an average $75 rebate per session and your coin in averages $2000. This is only 3.75%. If it is a 99% VP game, it is +EV.

If you are playing single line quarter NSUD, you will work long hours to lose $1000 on some small fraction of session. You will put in huge amounts of coin in. If you average only $10 in rebates per session, that might be only 0.1% loss back. Even NSUD would be -EV.

It is not the max denom available. It is the max denom you are willing to play. If you think you can lose $1000 for ten sessions in a row, go for it. Most people cannot take the losing. If the cap is smaller, you are more likely be up to the mental challenge of deliberately trying to lose.

BTW, I received a $1000 rebate on a 10% loss rebate promo this month. I did not enjoy the free $1000.

Quote: gunbj

Hello everyone,

I visited a casino that offers 10% loss rebate on actual losses and they don’t seem to differentiate between slots and video poker. They also have Deuces Wild on a 25c machine.
I don’t know much about exploiting loss rebates but would something like this be exploitable in any way?

Thanks
link to original post

i too would also like to know how to exploit a loss rebate on actual loses?

Just keep playing till you hit the loss limit?
so even if you hit a $1k Royal, keep playing?

If so, then this promo is basically just to accumulate tier points?

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: gunbj

Hello everyone,

I visited a casino that offers 10% loss rebate on actual losses and they don’t seem to differentiate between slots and video poker. They also have Deuces Wild on a 25c machine.
I don’t know much about exploiting loss rebates but would something like this be exploitable in any way?

Thanks
link to original post

i too would also like to know how to exploit a loss rebate on actual loses?

Just keep playing till you hit the loss limit?
so even if you hit a $1k Royal, keep playing?

If so, then this promo is basically just to accumulate tier points?
link to original post

No, the optimal method requires that you balance expected losses from the play with expected payments from the loss rebate. In some cases, the optimum strategy is to walk away because the games do not allow a positive balance. You will always lose more on an average session than you will gain from the rebates.

For good situations, the optimal EV comes from trying to lose the max as fast as you can on the most volatile game that has a decent return, but stopping if you are sufficiently ahead. See https://www.888casino.com/blog/casino-promotions/the-loss-rebate-theorem or https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233224415_Mathematical_analyses_of_casino_rebate_systems_for_VIP_gambling
The calculations are not simple unless you can achieve the maximum loss in one play. Calculating the ideal stopping point is generally not possible analytically. I run simulations to decide how far ahead I need to be to quit. Most of the time, there comes a point of diminishing returns and I accept a smaller win than is optimal.

Quote: Mental

Quote: 100xOdds

i too would also like to know how to exploit a loss rebate on actual loses?

Just keep playing till you hit the loss limit?
so even if you hit a $1k Royal, keep playing?

If so, then this promo is basically just to accumulate tier points?
link to original post

No, the optimal method requires that you balance expected losses from the play with expected payments from the loss rebate. In some cases, the optimum strategy is to walk away because the games do not allow a positive balance. You will always lose more on an average session than you will gain from the rebates.

For good situations, the optimal EV comes from trying to lose the max as fast as you can on the most volatile game that has a decent return, but stopping if you are sufficiently ahead. See https://www.888casino.com/blog/casino-promotions/the-loss-rebate-theorem or https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233224415_Mathematical_analyses_of_casino_rebate_systems_for_VIP_gambling
The calculations are not simple unless you can achieve the maximum loss in one play. Calculating the ideal stopping point is generally not possible analytically. I run simulations to decide how far ahead I need to be to quit. Most of the time, there comes a point of diminishing returns and I accept a smaller win than is optimal.
link to original post

lose the max as fast as i can:
If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Mental

Quote: 100xOdds

i too would also like to know how to exploit a loss rebate on actual loses?

Just keep playing till you hit the loss limit?
so even if you hit a $1k Royal, keep playing?

If so, then this promo is basically just to accumulate tier points?
link to original post

No, the optimal method requires that you balance expected losses from the play with expected payments from the loss rebate. In some cases, the optimum strategy is to walk away because the games do not allow a positive balance. You will always lose more on an average session than you will gain from the rebates.

For good situations, the optimal EV comes from trying to lose the max as fast as you can on the most volatile game that has a decent return, but stopping if you are sufficiently ahead. See https://www.888casino.com/blog/casino-promotions/the-loss-rebate-theorem or https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233224415_Mathematical_analyses_of_casino_rebate_systems_for_VIP_gambling
The calculations are not simple unless you can achieve the maximum loss in one play. Calculating the ideal stopping point is generally not possible analytically. I run simulations to decide how far ahead I need to be to quit. Most of the time, there comes a point of diminishing returns and I accept a smaller win than is optimal.
link to original post

lose the max as fast as i can:
If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)
link to original post

To have an advantage the slot machine can't hold more than the rebate.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Mental

Quote: 100xOdds

i too would also like to know how to exploit a loss rebate on actual loses?

Just keep playing till you hit the loss limit?
so even if you hit a $1k Royal, keep playing?

If so, then this promo is basically just to accumulate tier points?
link to original post

No, the optimal method requires that you balance expected losses from the play with expected payments from the loss rebate. In some cases, the optimum strategy is to walk away because the games do not allow a positive balance. You will always lose more on an average session than you will gain from the rebates.

For good situations, the optimal EV comes from trying to lose the max as fast as you can on the most volatile game that has a decent return, but stopping if you are sufficiently ahead. See https://www.888casino.com/blog/casino-promotions/the-loss-rebate-theorem or https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233224415_Mathematical_analyses_of_casino_rebate_systems_for_VIP_gambling
The calculations are not simple unless you can achieve the maximum loss in one play. Calculating the ideal stopping point is generally not possible analytically. I run simulations to decide how far ahead I need to be to quit. Most of the time, there comes a point of diminishing returns and I accept a smaller win than is optimal.
link to original post

lose the max as fast as i can:
If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)
link to original post

To have an advantage the slot machine can't hold more than the rebate.
link to original post

He is thinking in terms of "free shot" advantage. If he hits a Bonus round at $500 he maybe wins ten or twenty grand. If he loses both spins he loses nothing because of the rebate.

Quote: 100xOdds

If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)
link to original post

Is the rebate up to $1000 or the rebate of a loss on up to $1000?

My assumption would be lose $10,000 and get $1,000 rebate.

Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds

If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)
link to original post

Is the rebate up to $1000 or the rebate of a loss on up to $1000?

My assumption would be lose $10,000 and get $1,000 rebate.
link to original post

The OP, gunbj, does not say anything about caps. The only details is that it is a 10% loss rebate.

In my experience, casinos usually mention the cap on the amount of free slot play that you get rebated. They leave it to you to figure out the corresponding loss cap. It is safer if they mention the rebate cap. If they mention $500 on a 10% loss rebate, the customer would be hard pressed to misread that and think they can lose more than is actually covered by the promo. If they mention the $5000 in the rules, the customer might get confused and think this is the rebate and go blow $50K max betting Cleopatra slots. They might be pissed to find they are only getting $500 back. Another reason casinos do this is that they don't want to to stop gambling when you reach the loss cap, so they don't want to calculate it for you like some kind of mental stop sign.

Quote: Mental

Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds

If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)
link to original post

Is the rebate up to $1000 or the rebate of a loss on up to $1000?

My assumption would be lose $10,000 and get $1,000 rebate.
link to original post

The OP, gunbj, does not say anything about caps. The only details is that it is a 10% loss rebate.

In my experience, casinos usually mention the cap on the amount of free slot play that you get rebated. They leave it to you to figure out the corresponding loss cap. It is safer if they mention the rebate cap. If they mention $500 on a 10% loss rebate, the customer would be hard pressed to misread that and think they can lose more than is actually covered by the promo. If they mention the $5000 in the rules, the customer might get confused and think this is the rebate and go blow $50K max betting Cleopatra slots. They might be pissed to find they are only getting $500 back. Another reason casinos do this is that they don't want to to stop gambling when you reach the loss cap, so they don't want to calculate it for you like some kind of mental stop sign.
link to original post

The first line of his post above says "If 10% rebate up to $1000". That sounds like a limit to me.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Mental

Quote: 100xOdds

i too would also like to know how to exploit a loss rebate on actual loses?

Just keep playing till you hit the loss limit?
so even if you hit a $1k Royal, keep playing?

If so, then this promo is basically just to accumulate tier points?
link to original post

No, the optimal method requires that you balance expected losses from the play with expected payments from the loss rebate. In some cases, the optimum strategy is to walk away because the games do not allow a positive balance. You will always lose more on an average session than you will gain from the rebates.

For good situations, the optimal EV comes from trying to lose the max as fast as you can on the most volatile game that has a decent return, but stopping if you are sufficiently ahead. See https://www.888casino.com/blog/casino-promotions/the-loss-rebate-theorem or https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233224415_Mathematical_analyses_of_casino_rebate_systems_for_VIP_gambling
The calculations are not simple unless you can achieve the maximum loss in one play. Calculating the ideal stopping point is generally not possible analytically. I run simulations to decide how far ahead I need to be to quit. Most of the time, there comes a point of diminishing returns and I accept a smaller win than is optimal.
link to original post

lose the max as fast as i can:
If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)
link to original post

To have an advantage the slot machine can't hold more than the rebate.
link to original post

He is thinking in terms of "free shot" advantage. If he hits a Bonus round at $500 he maybe wins ten or twenty grand. If he loses both spins he loses nothing because of the rebate.
link to original post

Umm... How? It's a 10% rebate(?) He would get $100 back on a 1k loss. You would need a 100% rebate to "lose nothing" That would obviously be a slam dunk/no brainer and there's little to discuss other than technicalities in maximizing the value.

If the said machine is holding 15% you'll lose $150 in value and get back $100.

I maintain the game or machine's hold cannot be more than the rebate % you're getting back in order to gain an advantage.

Quote: DRich

The first line of his post above says "If 10% rebate up to $1000". That sounds like a limit to me.
link to original post

Yes, but that is not the OP. It is a new hypothetical introduced by 100xOdds. It is clear from the context that 100xOdds assumes the loss rebate is capped at $100. OP shown is below.

Quote: gunbj

Hello everyone,

I visited a casino that offers 10% loss rebate on actual losses and they don’t seem to differentiate between slots and video poker. They also have Deuces Wild on a 25c machine.
I don’t know much about exploiting loss rebates but would something like this be exploitable in any way?

Thanks
link to original post

You can buy a bonus for $500 and accomplish your goals if you know the proper way to buy the bonus. This method may not be available in all casinos as it requires certain machines with something else

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Mental

Quote: 100xOdds

i too would also like to know how to exploit a loss rebate on actual loses?

Just keep playing till you hit the loss limit?
so even if you hit a $1k Royal, keep playing?

If so, then this promo is basically just to accumulate tier points?
link to original post

No, the optimal method requires that you balance expected losses from the play with expected payments from the loss rebate. In some cases, the optimum strategy is to walk away because the games do not allow a positive balance. You will always lose more on an average session than you will gain from the rebates.

For good situations, the optimal EV comes from trying to lose the max as fast as you can on the most volatile game that has a decent return, but stopping if you are sufficiently ahead. See https://www.888casino.com/blog/casino-promotions/the-loss-rebate-theorem or https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233224415_Mathematical_analyses_of_casino_rebate_systems_for_VIP_gambling
The calculations are not simple unless you can achieve the maximum loss in one play. Calculating the ideal stopping point is generally not possible analytically. I run simulations to decide how far ahead I need to be to quit. Most of the time, there comes a point of diminishing returns and I accept a smaller win than is optimal.
link to original post

lose the max as fast as i can:
If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)
link to original post

To have an advantage the slot machine can't hold more than the rebate.
link to original post

He is thinking in terms of "free shot" advantage. If he hits a Bonus round at $500 he maybe wins ten or twenty grand. If he loses both spins he loses nothing because of the rebate.
link to original post

Umm... How? It's a 10% rebate(?) He would get $100 back on a 1k loss. You would need a 100% rebate to "lose nothing" That would obviously be a slam dunk/no brainer and there's little to discuss other than technicalities in maximizing the value.

If the said machine is holding 15% you'll lose $150 in value and get back $100.

I maintain the game or machine's hold cannot be more than the rebate % you're getting back in order to gain an advantage.
link to original post

You can buy a bonus for $500 and accomplish your goals if you know the proper way to buy the bonus. This method may not be available in all casinos as it requires certain machines with something else

If you give me the casino company name I could probably tell you if the above method will work. Depending on my mood I probably would walk you through the process.

Quote: Seedvalue

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Mental

Quote: 100xOdds

i too would also like to know how to exploit a loss rebate on actual loses?

Just keep playing till you hit the loss limit?
so even if you hit a $1k Royal, keep playing?

If so, then this promo is basically just to accumulate tier points?
link to original post

No, the optimal method requires that you balance expected losses from the play with expected payments from the loss rebate. In some cases, the optimum strategy is to walk away because the games do not allow a positive balance. You will always lose more on an average session than you will gain from the rebates.

For good situations, the optimal EV comes from trying to lose the max as fast as you can on the most volatile game that has a decent return, but stopping if you are sufficiently ahead. See https://www.888casino.com/blog/casino-promotions/the-loss-rebate-theorem or https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233224415_Mathematical_analyses_of_casino_rebate_systems_for_VIP_gambling
The calculations are not simple unless you can achieve the maximum loss in one play. Calculating the ideal stopping point is generally not possible analytically. I run simulations to decide how far ahead I need to be to quit. Most of the time, there comes a point of diminishing returns and I accept a smaller win than is optimal.
link to original post

lose the max as fast as i can:
If 10% rebate up to $1000
- My casino has $500/spin slots
- Do 2 spins
- If i win something, then i'll sit there and read the links you provided for the definition of significantly ahead :)
link to original post

To have an advantage the slot machine can't hold more than the rebate.
link to original post

He is thinking in terms of "free shot" advantage. If he hits a Bonus round at $500 he maybe wins ten or twenty grand. If he loses both spins he loses nothing because of the rebate.
link to original post

Umm... How? It's a 10% rebate(?) He would get $100 back on a 1k loss. You would need a 100% rebate to "lose nothing" That would obviously be a slam dunk/no brainer and there's little to discuss other than technicalities in maximizing the value.

If the said machine is holding 15% you'll lose $150 in value and get back $100.

I maintain the game or machine's hold cannot be more than the rebate % you're getting back in order to gain an advantage.
link to original post

You can buy a bonus for $500 and accomplish your goals if you know the proper way to buy the bonus. This method may not be available in all casinos as it requires certain machines with something else

If you give me the casino company name I could probably tell you if the above method will work. Depending on my mood I probably would walk you through the process.
link to original post

I know what you might be alluding to, but It doesn't matter what the situation is... if the games hold is more than the rebate you are getting back, it can't be +EV. I'm no math guru, but that just seems logical.

For Example, let's say it's a 10% rebate, but you plan to rathole chips to make it seem as if you're losing 100%, but the dealers going to cheat so you will lose 100% of the time. The best you could do is break even. The type of game you're playing doesn't matter.

Now, if one could trick the casino into believing they lost double what they actually did, it would be +EV, however, you're now actually getting a rebate above what the hold is.

Quote: AxelWolf

I know what you might be alluding to, but It doesn't matter what the situation is... if the games hold is more than the rebate you are getting back, it can't be +EV. I'm no math guru, but that just seems logical.
link to original post

I am 100% with Axel on this. If you play the promo on a slot straight up, you will generate a 100% loss most of the time, maybe 80-100% of the time. This means the 10% rebate is an 8-10% rebate even before you factor in the cost of the rebate redemption. If the slot you choose has a 93% RTP, then you are making less than 3% on the promo. Getting the rebate less than 100% of the time and redemption costs might make it -EV. If you are making several trips just to do this, then factor in your time, too.

You can rathole some slot games, and I am not going to mention any of them by name. I know of no game where you can appear to lose without incurring a significant theoretical loss. The games that work best are often excluded from the loss rebate promos.

None of this is a no-brainer. You need to get the math right. I am doing a loss rebate this weekend that is capped at a $12K loss. No table games or video poker. This loss cannot be completed in less than 12 spins. The math is not trivial. My strategy is to start with one high-volatility game and switch to a ratholing game if I don't get a quick win.