Another Nail in the Coffin
https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/acres-manufacturings-poker-analyzer-helps-operators-id-advantage-players/
Quote: GaryJKoehlerAcres Manufacturing’s poker analyzer helps operators ID advantage players:
https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/acres-manufacturings-poker-analyzer-helps-operators-id-advantage-players/
Laughable. I don't see how this could possibly backfire. Do you know an easy way to win low-level bowling leagues?
Quote: GaryJKoehlerAcres Manufacturing’s poker analyzer helps operators ID advantage players:
https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/acres-manufacturings-poker-analyzer-helps-operators-id-advantage-players/
i am very skeptical of this being practicle in todays environment. i don't think 90% of the video poker machines are capable of this. i would love to speak to someone at Acres about this. unless they are installing cameras or video encoders i can't imagine it working on most games.
1.) I only personally know (or know of) a handful of AP's who tag the casinos (overall) for what the casinos would even consider a rounding error. Much less, when you look at people tagging any ONE casino.
That said, of those people, most of them play video poker terribly. We're talking average, at best.
Some of them wouldn't even have VP as a first choice for doing what they're doing.
2.) I bet what could happen with this system is that you're going to end up under-comping some high-limit, very proficient, yet overall losing video poker players. These would-be players who are going to routinely lose thousands of dollars in a day to you now think that your comps suck and then go to some other casino.
The casinos are going to be losing A LOT more money when those guests go somewhere else than they are going to save by hunting for ghost AP's on Video Poker.
---So, it's detrimental to other guests, particularly high-rolling losing guests who play video poker well and does not save the casino anything because the casino is hunting for ghosts---for the most part. They're going to worry about someone pumping in money at a fraction of a percent advantage after considering mail?
What's next? Maybe some machines where you put your card in and the 9/6 JoB paytable just straight up changes to 7/5, or something?
All of these pencil-necked MBAs running things will probably do it and pat themselves on the back for being, "Proactive," all the while the casino's entire staff is completely missing on where their real holes are. Nothing changes. It was nice when casinos actually had a pair of balls, though, now they're pretty much admitting that they are cowards.
Quote: Mission146Here are a few other immediate thoughts:
1.) I only personally know (or know of) a handful of AP's who tag the casinos (overall) for what the casinos would even consider a rounding error. Much less, when you look at people tagging any ONE casino.
That said, of those people, most of them play video poker terribly. We're talking average, at best.
Some of them wouldn't even have VP as a first choice for doing what they're doing.
2.) I bet what could happen with this system is that you're going to end up under-comping some high-limit, very proficient, yet overall losing video poker players. These would-be players who are going to routinely lose thousands of dollars in a day to you now think that your comps suck and then go to some other casino.
The casinos are going to be losing A LOT more money when those guests go somewhere else than they are going to save by hunting for ghost AP's on Video Poker.
---So, it's detrimental to other guests, particularly high-rolling losing guests who play video poker well and does not save the casino anything because the casino is hunting for ghosts---for the most part. They're going to worry about someone pumping in money at a fraction of a percent advantage after considering mail?
What's next? Maybe some machines where you put your card in and the 9/6 JoB paytable just straight up changes to 7/5, or something?
All of these pencil-necked MBAs running things will probably do it and pat themselves on the back for being, "Proactive," all the while the casino's entire staff is completing missing on where their real holes are. Nothing changes. It was nice when casinos actually had a pair of balls, though, now they're pretty much admitting that they are cowards.
if the technology actually exists for a reasonable price, it would be pretty easy to implement properly. my thought is that the technology will be too expensive to implement today. in the future machines i would expect this to be built in. Most people have no idea the cost of technology. What do you think a casino pays to add a player tracking system to a slot machine? If you guessed $3000 to $4000 per machine you would be close. adding that to 1000 machines is quite pricey. i would assume Acres system is also very pricey.
I’m not sure why I am surprised when casinos are this sleezy
Quote: gamerfreakPenalizing players for playing correctly….
I’m not sure why I am surprised when casinos are this sleezy
Casinos have always tried to eliminate skilled players. They have thrown out card counters for 50 years.
Quote: DRich
if the technology actually exists for a reasonable price, it would be pretty easy to implement properly. my thought is that the technology will be too expensive to implement today. in the future machines i would expect this to be built in. Most people have no idea the cost of technology. What do you think a casino pays to add a player tracking system to a slot machine? If you guessed $3000 to $4000 per machine you would be close. adding that to 1000 machines is quite pricey. i would assume Acres system is also very pricey.
There's also that. It just amazes me that, with all of the tech Wizardry out there, nobody working for any of these casino companies even knows how to do simple algebra. If your goal is to stop AP, then that's REALLY easy to do. I could go into a casino and AP-proof the machine side of operations completely in about an hour.
Maybe not an hour. The machines themselves, yes, but then there's the matter of getting the different operating departments to actually communicate with each other once in a while.
And, then you have Table Games. The casinos make no bones about the fact that they are willing to offer terrible games anymore, so do you know how to end hole carding? It's easy. Just don't have any hole cards. Varying based on the game and what stage the game is in, cards don't come out until players have made their decisions at the current play point. Non-AP's seem like they will put up with most anything.
I'd have guessed a couple-few million, so I guess the accuracy of my guess just depends on the size of the casino.
Even that doesn't matter. Get management that actually knows something about gambling. And math. That's really all you have to do.
I'll have entire rows of a dozen or two dozen VP games all at 99.5%, or better...only catch is they don't even take players club cards.
Quote: DRichCasinos have always tried to eliminate skilled players. They have thrown out card counters for 50 years.
And, in so doing, also focused on some micro area which isn't even really where they're getting tanned. Nothing changes.
Set it to detect 5 or such different kind of those draws, and then it sends a notification.
Or conversely, you could trigger it to ignore after someone has made several mistakes.
Rewarding lousy player's might actually be more profitable in the long run than playing perfect VP.
This is the problem with stopping AP's. Casino execs just can't think like an AP does.
Quote: darkozAs an AP I would already be into seeing how much better comps you get for playing lousy VP.
Rewarding lousy player's might actually be more profitable in the long run than playing perfect VP.
This is the problem with stopping AP's. Casino execs just can't think like an AP does.
Well, I wasn't going to come out and say it, but the bowling league reference in my first post was talking about sandbagging.
Quote: rxwineIn the future, APs will be 86'd by a robot which plucks a player out of the seat and tosses him in the backroom.
They already have those. They are called, "Security personnel."
Quote: Mission146They already have those. They are called, "Security personnel."
Only difference, is you get to see players flail their arms and legs in midair as they are carried away.
Quote: rxwineOnly difference, is you get to see players flail their arms and legs in midair as they are carried away.
Lol, I have seen that already!
Quote: DRichCasinos have always tried to eliminate skilled players. They have thrown out card counters for 50 years.
Yea, but there are way more sensible ways to do that. It makes no sense why casinos often choose the most hostile and expensive solutions.
Casinos continue to harass and backroom card counters when simply flat betting them would be sufficient.
If casinos want to mitigate Video Poker AP, they can nerf the players club points for high RTP games like CET (and I’m sure others), simply not offer pay tables capable of over 100% return, and do some really basic math when they offer promotions.
This product is only useful for braindead casino management, so it might actually be quite successful.
Quote: gamerfreakYea, but there are way more sensible ways to do that. It makes no sense why casinos often choose the most hostile and expensive solutions.
What, why the managers would? I don't know...maybe they get taken out to dinner, expensive drinks, some nose candy, get some gifts and maybe even a decent prostitute on the dime of the company selling them the devices. All the while, they can tell their superiors they're being proactive with an eye towards protecting company assets.
Quote:Casinos continue to harass and backroom card counters when simply flat betting them would be sufficient.
If casinos want to mitigate Video Poker AP, they can nerf the players club points for high RTP games like CET (and I’m sure others), simply not offer pay tables capable of over 100% return, and do some really basic math when they offer promotions.
This product is only useful for braindead casino management, so it might actually be quite successful.
What would be more efficient is to not worry about card counters at all, at least, below certain stakes.
Second paragraph (VP) exactly. It really wouldn't be difficult. Also, here are three banks of machines where every game has a theoretical return to player of 99.5%+, but don't even have a players club card insert...have a blast. Maybe even throw the hair over 100% DB on there just for gigs. Quarter denomination or lower, anything higher and the paytable is worse, but still over 99.5%.
Quote: DRich
if the technology actually exists for a reasonable price, it would be pretty easy to implement properly. my thought is that the technology will be too expensive to implement today.
If you're looking for hand by hand analysis, I tend to agree.
If you're satisfied with coin in vs coin out and comparing that to machine theoretical, I would tend to think this is readily practical with 20 year old technology.
Quote: rxwineIn the future, APs will be 86'd by a robot which plucks a player out of the seat and tosses him in the backroom.
Trapdoors.
How difficult would it be for this program to detect perfect play in all the different variants of video poker they have or may come up with? That doesn't sound very feasible.
What advantage players are really targeting video poker nowadays? Are the casinos suddenly looking to put in a bunch of good-paying video poker? I think not.
This entire thing sounds like a silly marketing ploy. But hey, I think all the casinos should buy the Acres software program. They will automatically be safe from all video poker Advantage Players and they can commence with better perks, big promotions all without having a thing to worry about.
My limited understanding of VP APs is they depend on mailings and the like for a good bit on their income. I thought simply stopping those effectively eliminated them.
A game worth playing because of player points and mailings becomes unplayable without them.
This seems like a solution in search of a problem.
Quote: AxelWolf
This entire thing sounds like a silly marketing ploy. But hey, I think all the casinos should buy the Acres software program.
This is just an extension, or another peg of a whole side "protection" industry that has sprung up in the last 10 years or so, consisting of consultants and products designed to convince the casino industry that advantage players are hurting them and they need this "protection" from AP's. Sort of like a mob shakedown.
End result: casinos spend many times more in protection that AP's could ever take. Spend a dollar to save a few pennies. That is what is going on. But the consultants and protection people are getting rich. :/
Many many times.Quote: billryanHas a video poker AP ever been removed from casino?
I get that, but I guess they can't just ignore Advantage Players and let them run wild.Quote: kewljThis is just an extension, or another peg of a whole side "protection" industry that has sprung up in the last 10 years or so, consisting of consultants and products designed to convince the casino industry that advantage players are hurting them and they need this "protection" from AP's. Sort of like a mob shakedown.
End result: casinos spend many times more in protection that AP's could ever take. Spend a dollar to save a few pennies. That is what is going on. But the consultants and protection people are getting rich. :/
Quote: billryanHas a video poker AP ever been removed from casino?
My limited understanding of VP APs is they depend on mailings and the like for a good bit on their income. I thought simply stopping those effectively eliminated them.
A game worth playing because of player points and mailings becomes unplayable without them.
This seems like a solution in search of a problem.
What you are describing is what I have been doing since moving to vegas to suplement my blackjack income. It is the very low end, low hanging fruit of VP AP. It was good 10 years ago, that is why a fellow AP convinced me if I wasn't doing some of this, I was leaving money on the table. Back then casinos, especially all the off strip local's casinos were REALLY competeing for the local player, so 10k coin in could generate several months of decent mail offer free play, making the whole play fairly profitable.
Now you throw 10k coin in and you get $5 free play a week. Unless it is a Boyd property then you might get a couple multiplier days instead. lol.
So for me, playing that low hanging fruit, that supplemental play has all but dried up.
Quote: AxelWolfI get that, but I guess they can't just ignore Advantage Players and let them run wild.
I think they can to some extent. I am being serious. I always thought the Bill Zender model was very efficient for the casinos industry. It was based on card counters back then, but could be extended to all AP play.
The model basically says you ignore all the small players. They aren't effecting anything. Most aren't playing perfect stagegies anyway, which means they may not even be playing a +EV game. And you focus on the few higher end teams and players that are well financed.
So with card counters he was saying the low limit players aren't hurting anything. They don't have the bankroll to do much, and their play isn't good enough to matter. Extending that to machine AP plays, many of the low limit players aren't playing perfect strategies for the different games....may not even be playing a +EV game. You focus on the higher end players and teams.....the Axelwolfs of the world. :)
Instead casinos spend money on gaming protection consultants that sell them how much they are losing. Then they spend money on all sorts of differt technology, databases subscriptions (monthly charge), and extra personnel to run the technology. Ends up they are spending dollars to save pennies.
Now, I play only high limit tables but when I play I rarely see a player refuse to present his player card or ID to get a player card. Maybe at the smaller tables refusing to present a player card or ID is more common, but if not - then if I owned a casino I'd watch anyone who refuses closely at least for a while, until I figured out why he is refusing to identify himself. In other words - how simple is that policy, if anyone at the tables refuses to present a player card or get one, watch him closely for a while.
At the machines, it would be harder to enforce that sort of thing, forcing people to input player cards or get one, hence the need for some kind of software like this to weed out the sort of players they don't want.
I'm not sure why they have not done this. In Nevada, I'd think it would be pretty simple to get the law changed to require just that.
Banks and stock brokers are required to know their customers, why not casinos.
I'd think the tiny amount of people who would refuse to show id would actually help the casinos bottom line, and does anything else matter to them.
If they let all the lower level AP's go totally unmolested that starts to add up to the bigger teams etc. Can you imagine what would happen if they said F it, we allow card counters as long as you keep your bets to under x amount. Part of what keeps some people from not wanting to focus on card counting is all the other cat and mouse games.Quote: kewljI think they can to some extent. I am being serious. I always thought the Bill Zender model was very efficient for the casinos industry. It was based on card counters back then, but could be extended to all AP play.
The model basically says you ignore all the small players. They aren't effecting anything. Most aren't playing perfect stagegies anyway, which means they may not even be playing a +EV game. And you focus on the few higher end teams and players that are well financed.
So with card counters he was saying the low limit players aren't hurting anything. They don't have the bankroll to do much, and their play isn't good enough to matter. Extending that to machine AP plays, many of the low limit players aren't playing perfect strategies for the different games....may not even be playing a +EV game. You focus on the higher end players and teams.....the Axelwolfs of the world. :)
Instead casinos spend money on gaming protection consultants that sell them how much they are losing. Then they spend money on all sorts of differt technology, databases subscriptions (monthly charge), and extra personnel to run the technology. Ends up they are spending dollars to save pennies.
Quote: MDawgAt table games it's just a matter of casinos deciding whether they want to lose some customers due to demanding ID. If a casino decides that it will not allow anyone to play a table game without identifying himself, it would be within their rights as a private establishment, as long as the policy is enforced universally. If they don't want to go that extreme, then something like what they have going on at Resorts World Vegas with electronic bet tracking might be used to weed out advantage players, but implementing such an electronic system at a casino would be more expensive than just switching over to demanding ID.
Now, I play only high limit tables but when I play I rarely see a player refuse to present his player card or ID to get a player card. Maybe at the smaller tables refusing to present a player card or ID is more common, but if not - then if I owned a casino I'd watch anyone who refuses closely at least for a while, until I figured out why he is refusing to identify himself. In other words - how simple is that policy, if anyone at the tables refuses to present a player card or get one, watch him closely for a while.
At the machines, it would be harder to enforce that sort of thing, forcing people to input player cards or get one, hence the need for some kind of software like this to weed out the sort of players they don't want.
You are exactly right, at the high limit tables in the high-limit rooms with all the ones I have experience with, plus at the casino chain that I work for very seldom does a high limit player refuse to give ID or has not already been issued a players card with full identification already within the casino's computer system.
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Quote: AxelWolfIf they let all the lower level AP's go totally unmolested that starts to add up to the bigger teams etc. Can you imagine what would happen if they said F it, we allow card counters as long as you keep your bets to under x amount. Part of what keeps some people from not wanting to focus on card counting is all the other cat and mouse games.
I think they would be fine allowing all the card counters under certain amounts. Like I said, most of these are recreational type card counters. They don't know proper index plays. they are not properly funded so they lose a couple of their big bets and start playing scared, throwing out half on the big bet. If they lose their buy-in and maybe a second buy-in, they will walk away, even from a very positive +EV count. All these things turn that very, very slim advantage that a good card counter plays to, to no advantage or -EV play.
So they may very well be banning a player that is contributing to the casinos win. And what if that player isn't playing a losing game, but let's say barely breaking even. They may very well have a wife, or some companion playing slots, or other casino game and losing 10 times as much of any small amount this player can win. Is that good business?
And by the way, your "keep your bets under xxx" was actually one of the first countermeasures I encountered in Atlantic City. The casinos, several including Borgata would pull out a 'minimum bet $5, maximum bet $50 placard that applied only to me. This was at $25 tables, which very much confused other players. A $5-$50 spread that they were allowing should be a +EV game (1-10 spread), so they were willing to accept that. Why because such limits doesn't hurt anything.
Not only don't hurt anything, but the common knowledge that blackjack CAN be beaten has been a huge boom for the casino industry....a huge draw.
And now we are back to the same thing, them trying to figure out who is counting and who isn't when someone wants to jump their bets to a higher level. Since all games are different and there is no good answer to what that x amount is, let me ask you this, what hourly amount should they allow the cards counters to make unmolested?Quote: kewljI think they would be fine allowing all the card counters under certain amounts. Like I said, most of these are recreational type card counters. They don't know proper index plays. they are not properly funded so they lose a couple of their big bets and start playing scared, throwing out half on the big bet. If they lose their buy-in and maybe a second buy-in, they will walk away, even from a very positive +EV count. All these things turn that very, very slim advantage that a good card counter plays to, to no advantage or -EV play.
So they may very well be banning a player that is contributing to the casinos win. And what if that player isn't playing a losing game, but let's say barely breaking even. They may very well have a wife, or some companion playing slots, or other casino game and losing 10 times as much of any small amount this player can win. Is that good business?
And by the way, your "keep your bets under xxx" was actually one of the first countermeasures I encountered in Atlantic City. The casinos, several including Borgata would pull out a 'minimum bet $5, maximum bet $50 placard that applied only to me. This was at $25 tables, which very much confused other players. A $5-$50 spread that they were allowing should be a +EV game (1-10 spread), so they were willing to accept that. Why because such limits doesn't hurt anything.
Not only don't hurt anything, but the common knowledge that blackjack CAN be beaten has been a huge boom for the casino industry....a huge draw.
Quote: Marcusclark66
You are exactly right, at the high limit tables in the high-limit rooms with all the ones I have experience with, plus at the casino chain that I work for very seldom does a high limit player refuse to give ID or has not already been issued a players card with full identification already within the casino's computer system.
Outside of the high limit players, casino's own policies have contributed to players not wanting to play rated. Some time during my 12 years in vegas, probably 8-9 years ago now, MGM announced table game players playing less than $25 tables would not be rated. Everyone else followed suit. Now even at $25 tables, most players earn nothing. Check your points before and after table play. Most places you get nothing, unless you are playing $50 or more.
And that has been extended to off strip locations. Ocassionally I play rated at say a Stations casinos. I am usually at a $25 minimum table and my minimum bet often is $50, spreading to $400, so I probably have an average bet of close to $100. I never get a single point for my rated blackjack play. (I do earn points for machine play). So what incentive is there for table players to play rated?
Quote: billryanFrom casino point of view, I wouldn't let anyone buy in for over X amount without proper id. If you don't have a players card, the pit will get you one. No id, no play.
I'm not sure why they have not done this. In Nevada, I'd think it would be pretty simple to get the law changed to require just that.
Banks and stock brokers are required to know their customers, why not casinos.
I'd think the tiny amount of people who would refuse to show id would actually help the casinos bottom line, and does anything else matter to them.
There is a law; it’s 10k. Some have a policy of requiring earlier but, generally, it works the exact opposite of what you suggest. They’ll let you buy in for 9k+without ID but good luck cashing anywhere from a single large denom chip or 1/3 of that amount without ID. They only care who you are when they have to pay you not to take your money.
Quote: AxelWolfAnd now we are back to the same thing, them trying to figure out who is counting and who isn't when someone wants to jump their bets to a higher level. Since all games are different and there is no good answer to what that x amount is, let me ask you this, what hourly amount should they allow the cards counters to make unmolested?
It is more than just looking at a formula that xxx player is earning xx/hr because he is spreading x to xx.
Most of these lower limit players are not playing a winning game for a varienty of reasons that I already mentioned, non optimal play (meaning not knowing the correct index plays), under funded (the big one) which leads to all kind of negative things, like playing scared, not putting out the big bets, walking away from very +EV play.
If they just ignored ALL the low limit play and players, the majority that either playing a -EV game or break even game, they aren't losing anything. ANYTHING they spend trying to limit these players is more than the players are making as a whole. I really believe that. Focus on the higher stakes players and teams only.
And by the way, players winning a little bit, even from AP just isn't a bad thing for the casinos. That really WAS part of the model. If nobody ever wins, why should anyone want to play?
Quote: unJonPlayed at Borgata last night. If you don’t have a players card you are only allowed to make table minimum bets at BJ. Told most AC casinos are adopting that rule.
Wow interesting, so what I mused about is actually happening.
Quote: unJonPlayed at Borgata last night. If you don’t have a players card you are only allowed to make table minimum bets at BJ. Told most AC casinos are adopting that rule.
Yeah, I believe that policy has been in effect for several years now in AC. One of the reasons I haven't been back there despite regular east coast trips nearby.
Quote: mcallister3200There is a law; it’s 10k. Some have a policy of requiring earlier but, generally, it works the exact opposite of what you suggest. They’ll let you buy in for 9k+without ID but good luck cashing anywhere from a single large denom chip or 1/3 of that amount without ID.
This is exactly right, and the smaller the casino, the less likely they will cash any chip of $500. or more without your establishing where you got it (i.e. via a WIN or buy in tracking from the table). They also want to avoid cashing too many chips if you owe markers.
Now, at say Wynn, Venetian, Resorts World Vegas, Cosmopolitan, or a high end MGM Vegas or Caesar's Vegas casino etc. - go to the cage with under 1000 in chips and they will almost always just cash it without asking. I've even presented a yellow chip and a few blacks, or even anywhere up to a couple thousand or even a bit more in chips at say, Wynn and had it cashed without asking for my player card. But the dumpier casinos such as some downtown might even question four or five hundred in just blacks. And even at Wynn sometimes you present a single yellow chip and the cashier asks for your player card.
BUT you have to consider, if you are able to buy in without identifying yourself and you play without identifying yourself and you end up with a bunch of chips either due to winning or not losing, then how will you cash them easily? At that point identifying yourself may not be enough - the cage has to figure out how you got all those chips.
It is something that will make you be remembered, which I usually try to avoid. But I have had times, that when I see that same pit person and say, "I am not going to be here long"....they drop it. :). Sometimes I gotta train these folks to do things my way.
Imagine being told at CVS or Walgreens you couldn't buy anything without presenting a card?
Or being told you could not fly on an airline without signing up to earn frequent flyer miles.
The Casinos don't want to alienate new or rare players who prefer to just make a hit and not play again. Those players may lose good money but not be interested in comps.
Finally from a bottom line perspective, perks and comps cost. A customer who doesn't want any is actually more valuable to the casino. It's like those cereal box giveaways. Why do they offer them through the mail? Because half the customers that get excited actually forget to send them in. The corporation makes the sale without paying for a comp.
Quote: mcallister3200There is a law; it’s 10k. Some have a policy of requiring earlier but, generally, it works the exact opposite of what you suggest. They’ll let you buy in for 9k+without ID but good luck cashing anywhere from a single large denom chip or 1/3 of that amount without ID. They only care who you are when they have to pay you not to take your money.
I'm aware of the law but there is nothing stopping a casino from going lower. At my clubs everyone had to show id, and after the technology became available, every id got scanned. In theory, if something happened inside or outside, we'd be able to watch a video and be able to match the faces to the ids. It also bolstered our mailing lists.
Quote: darkozI don't know any company that would offer services only if you join their promotional club.
Imagine being told at CVS or Walgreens you couldn't buy anything without presenting a card?
While Radio Shack and Party City didn't (don't?) make it impossible, my memory says they were very forward about tying your identity to your purchases.
Quote: DieterWhile Radio Shack and Party City didn't (don't?) make it impossible, my memory says they were very forward about tying your identity to your purchases.
Those silly airlines that insisted on customers show all id must all have gone broke. I remember the time a clerk at a car rental insisted I give him my id before I could rent a car. Madness.
Quote: MDawgPlus as UnJon already pointed out, at least in some casinos they are forcing unidentified blackjack players to flat bet minimum.
That seems like the best solution, from a casino prospective.
When I go to a show at the House of Blues inside Mandalay Bay, they want id. That I can play at a BJ table a hundred feet away seems inconsistent.
